Independent Golfer Ireland

bobster453

350000 people in Ireland play golf regularly but are not members of a golf club according to Golf Ireland.

This is 57 percent more than the 223000 they claim are members of golf clubs.

How long will the 1 year exemption last for current members of golf clubs before they can access this I wonder.

In England after 2 years it was reduced to 30 days.

Where are these extra 350000?…surely has to include all overseas visitors who pay top dollar and only visit a few premier clubs.

What impact will this have on clubs?

Will it as Golf Ireland claim, lead to extra people paying green fees and eventually joining a club or will it lead to a race to the bottom to retain members?

Will it lead to the demise of clubs selling cheap distance memberships?

What do you think?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/golf/arid-41395303.html

bobster453

Another point of view here.

Key for me is the lack of figures detailing how many members left clubs in England,Wales or Scotland to avail of what has been termed "yellow pack" handicaps.

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2024/04/club-membership-concern-over-irelands-independent-golfer-scheme/

bobster453

If you were a committee member of a golf club what would your strategy be to maximise the return from this initiative?

bobster453

Decent article

https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/gui-ilgu-news/2024/05/20/golf-irelands-independent-golfer-scheme-what-is-it-and-what-does-it-mean/

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142746#Comment_122142746

There's intro/beginner type memberships in lots of clubs. They're just not really advertised or promoted very well.

Plus people are automatically put off when they need to go looking for two proposers.

Clubs will have a few ways of approaching iGolf.

1. Trying to discourage existing members from walking away (cheaper 3/5/6 day memberships, penalties for re-joining, figuring out leave of absence policies to re-align with igolf take up).
2. Changing how facilities, prizes and green fees work.
   1. Limit facilities for guests/igolfers.
   2. Prizes for iGolfers can't be 1st overall (I can see GI raising an eyebrow).
   3. iGolfers must have a fully developed index and max # of general play cards for prizes.
   4. Jack up open and normal green fees for non-GI club affiliated golfers.
3. Pathways from iGolf into membership.
   1. Eg play X times in a year, and qualify for a special intro deal.
   2. The best iGolfer of the year get's discount on the same membership (min say 5 opens in club).
   3. Best iGolfers form a team to play against club selection at end of season (nominal prize, food and drinks after).

There's plenty of both discourage and encourage at play but that's what I can think of in 5 minutes. So I'd imagine there's loads more to come.

It's a hard balance of stopping leavers and tapping into potential new members. If someone wants to leave they won't want to contribute to the club. If someone wants to join, they want to play and get involved.

OEP

It'll have to be in for a couple of years before clubs find out if they're losing members because of it. If they are losing members, I'd expect clubs to restrict open competitions to non-iGolf members.

Kiith

More clubs need to invest money in their website, and actually promote their club on social media. So many clubs have sites that look like they were designed in the 90's (which they probably were).

Green Peter

This will actually kill of clubs and is a disaster, we all know of a few clubs you can join for €150 and get a handicap and the large numbers that go to them rather than support a local club. Local clubs will struggle to survive, already many are club hopping to get cheap golf. IMO it's a money grab by the GUI who couldn't care less about the clubs and how they are to survive. I expect alot of clubs to fold and be snapped up by developers. The GUI will have golfers at their mercy in the long term with fewer clubs. Clubs need to get together and respond in a meaningful way that will hit the GUI and their cronies in the pocket.

bakerbhoy

From the mutterings I have heard from officialdom, it's going to a very expensive entry/green fee for the independent golfer.

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122207473#Comment_122207473

such hyperbole. Such nonsense.

If any club in any area wants to fend this threat off (perceived or real), they will have one simple manoeuvre to make: refuse to host any green fees, societies, opens or guests, at weekends.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211159#Comment_122211159

I tend to think it is singles competitions that will be hit with large entry fee for competitions tbh.

Societies and classics wont be touched as they are cash cows at weekends..societies will most likely insist on whs holders putting thro scores as per the Boards society.

Classics dont really matter as they are just for raising money and every golfer knows the bandits always win them anyhow so clubs charge plenty as is for timesheet spots.

With shortened season due to weather a lot of clubs dont have green fees at weekends.

Cant comment about opens at weekends..do many clubs have them?

blue note

If clubs can now have open comps and charge some people extra for entering them they'll be delighted about it.

I went on a 2 round overnight golf trip with my college mates at the weekend. 8 of us played. Of the 8, 1 is a member of 2 clubs and gets lots of use out of both. I'm a pay and play member of a club because I can't justify full membership anywhere while I won't get to make reasonable use out of it. I have previously been a full member of a club. 2 are former club members but have taken a break as they can't justify membership while they don't have time to use it. 1 has the independent golfer type of membership in Australia - for him it's a way into the game. For 200 dollars he gets a lesson, I think he said it includes a couple of rounds and he gets discounted rounds on a few courses. He's delighted with it and if he takes to the game he'll look at full membership somewhere. He won over the two days so I suspect he'll stick with it. The other 3 lads have never been a member anywhere but would have an interest in some sort of membership in the future. I'd say they'll be a long while before they'd consider parting with a grand or two for full membership anywhere though while they're only playing a few times a year.

For me, I was looking at our group and thinking that one of the 8, two have already left clubs because they can't justify the membership fees considering how little they use them. If I only had full memberships as options available to me, I probably wouldn't justify being a member anywhere either. I think golf as a sport will be better served when people can be kept in touch with the game as some sort of members somewhere. They'll play more if they are and they'll pay more if they are. That will benefit clubs. I could be wrong, but I'd be amazed if we see any mass exodus from clubs from people going to Independent golfer. If lads are members of places just for a handicap they're using the pay and play options, or distance membership, not full memberships.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231409#Comment_122231409

The small rural clubs with large distance members are most vunerable…

blue note

I was previously a distance member in your club, so in fairness not a small rural club. Interestingly, I remember when I was a distance member there being told by a couple of members that they didn't think the club should do distance membership. They for one felt that if you have full playing rights you should pay full subs. They were also of the opinion that people would use fake addresses to claim distance membership. In my case I was living in Dublin, but in their view since I was in my early 20s sure I was down every weekend, it's no different to living in the town.

If I remember correctly, I was paying €550 for that membership option. At the same time, there were clubs offering distance membership for about €150. If people just wanted the handicap, they'd choose the €150 option. Why would anyone even pay €151 for it somewhere if they could get it for €150? People choosing distance memberships do so because they get some use out of them on top of the handicap. In my case, I was splitting my weekends at the time between Dublin, Tramore and Tullamore. The big advantage of a distance membership in my home town was that when I was home for the weekend I could play in the Sunday comp with my father / friends. A handicap only option would by and large rule out Sunday golf. It was also handy that I could play in opens in the midlands on bank holidays, I used to play in a couple each year. I don't recall ever playing in an open in Dublin in that time. Having a handicap was very important to me too. In my eyes, it's the only real measure of how good you are. Doing well in comps can be great, but sometimes all it means is that you were playing badly for a long time before you got your game together. Your handicap is how good you are.

Another angle to look at - do people remember the furore when a club started offering distance membership for €150? There was outrage. Golfers were taking it up essentially to buy a handicap and a hell of a lot of people thought clubs should not be allowed to do that. Are we now okay with clubs selling handicaps with no golf attached (it might have been on offer, but if it was never going to be used it was in essence no golf attached)?

I supposed I still just don't see where any significant loss of members / revenue is going to come from. How many distance members in small rural clubs who have no little interest in playing those clubs can we possibly have?

JVince

I'm not sure if this will affect club membership as much as some fear.

Part of club membership is being within the club. The comradery, the playing in the club contests, being picked to represent the club.

I'm in a small society too. There are 26 members. 14 are members of golf clubs, the others are casual players and don't play often enough to warrant joining a club. One is a member of Highfield flexigolf (€195) even though he lives 100km away.

Of the other 11, I'd guess 8 or 9 would pay €100 for Independent Golf membership and of them I reckon 4 o 5 would eventually join a club.

Of the 14 who are members of clubs, I don't think any of them would cancel membership and take up the Independent Golf offer.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122245397#Comment_122245397

Part of club membership is being within the club. The comradery, the playing in the club contests, being picked to represent the club.

There are plenty of people out there who don't really care about this stuff. I am sure every golf club has plenty of members who never set foot in the club house or put a cent across the bar, they just arrive up to play their round and head home straight away after.

To these people the club is merely the service provider they pay to get access to the course.

Seve OB

I met a fellow club member last week who you might say prides himself on being the perfect member

pays his sub, doesn't play 🤣

he told me to make it even better, he was down at Christmas a couple of years ago collecting the wine (as lots do with unspent bar credit) and met the manager and was chatting about kids etc. mentioned he would get his daughter into the club in a few years when she turns age. manager said to him "what age she now?….. sure rules have changed we can get her in now"

so now he pays the sub for both himself and his daughter and neither of them come near the place 🤣

callaway92

When is this due to come in? Or is it still just rumoured etc?

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122246851#Comment_122246851

Not rumoured.Golf Ireland online meetings already held.

Not sure of timeframe.

roverjoyce

Seems to be working in England

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249381#Comment_122249381

The elephant in the room for me is how many of those left clubs for cheap handicap.

In other words what was overall club membership prior to launch versus now.

Cannot find those figures anywhere.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249950#Comment_122249950

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2024/05/club-membership-increased-in-england-in-2023/

Huge jump of 100,000 in 2020-2021, ("Since the pandemic struck in March 2020, affiliated golf club membership in England has increased by 100,000.") drop of 15,000 in 2022, small rise in 2023.

Clubs did very well keeping most of the Covid joiners

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122246851#Comment_122246851

It’s a done deal. It’s due to be launched in October. Clubs are not entitled to a vote on the matter under the Golf Ireland constitution as it is part of the strategic plan.

paulos53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328944#Comment_122328944

Out of curiosity, do you know if the strategic plan was voted for and approved by the clubs? I just had a look at the strategic plan (published in early 2022) and it does include the possibility of an independent golfer scheme.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328944#Comment_122328944

Thanks

Personally, for me it's a great deal to keep my Golf Ireland membership and still allow me to play Open Competitions and Scratch Cups etc.

I saw no value in my membership, and the 'club ethos' stuff doesn't bother me. I saw some of the stuff my previous home course spent money on and it was an absolute waste (new putting green that nobody uses, a slight change to the driving range which hasn't physically improved it, adding cost to membership as bar credit etc.,). Bunkers are a disgrace year-round and 18 holes are only playable about 6 months of the year.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329302#Comment_122329302

Agree with your sentiments re your former..my current club..except for the bar credit isnt a bar credit.It can also be used for entry to comps which is what i use it for.Have to top up min 20 euro as cannot pay for comps as member any other way.No biggie for me as i enter them every weekend.Its only an extra cost if you dont enter competitions or have a bit of grub.

Closed holes 6 months of the year is part and parcel of modern climate change golf.Besides its enough for me to play 9 or 12 holes in wet windy conditions anyhow in the winter/spring.

Agree re the white elephant that is the new putting green..wrong location and wasnt needed.

Driving range is a good addition.I use it a lot throughout the year whether playing or just practice.Having it covered means it can be used pretty much all the time.

All these were discussed and agreed at various AGMs..the issue is very few members attend them but criticise afterwards..hurlers on the ditch i believe is the phrase.

Regarding independent golfers i doubt too many clubs will allow them play winter or spring anyhow..be premium prices when they do play i reckon.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329302#Comment_122329302

sounds like you are in a club which you don't like

ever thought of joining another?

to be fair, no business is going to please all their stakeholders with every aspect of operations and distribution of their resources. others maybe very happy with the improvements to the driving range and putting green. more bar credit will drive more revenue into your clubhouse and keep your club going.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329745#Comment_122329745

Love the course but membership value had been completely dissolved in my opinion.

It’s my home town so has sentimental value in that sense. Blue tee comps now €8 for members, up from €6. Normal comps now €6 I think, up from €5. Membership price gone up annually.

callaway92

Just on the comment about bar credit keeping the bar going and some may like that - I agree, which is why this new system completely suits me

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329759#Comment_122329759

Be interesting to see accounts at end of year and if bar revenue has gone up at the cost of membership subscriptions going down.That will be the litmus test for me..or maybe one will balance out the other which again would be a fail if the intention was to increase revenue while maintaining membership numbers.

I did hear at one stage over 100 members had left.A quick check on Golf Ireland shows 598 current members but unsure how up to date that is.

Lack of communication with members leading to surprises was one of the causes of members leaving i was told.

Hopefully you will decide to rejoin at some stage.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329867#Comment_122329867

I'd love to rejoin at some stage hopefully!

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329302#Comment_122329302

From the limited amount of chatter I've heard so far, some (or many) clubs will likely choose to restrict independent golfers somewhat. Eg a gui club visitor will have preferential treatment.

What this means I think it's too early to say. There may be ring-fenced tee times, separate prize categories in opens etc. Scratch cups would probably block outright block igolfers or have stricter criteria - eg fully developed whs index and minimum number of comps in past year. That criteria is already in most clubs already.

However clubs won't disappear when independent golf starts. Membership is a different proposition.

An igolfer has to pay green fees to play and can only play open comps (if allowed by the hosting club/org).

Membership is unlimited golf, practice facilities, quick 6 holes, comps throughout the year, interclub teams.

If a small rural club thinks they will be destroyed I'd strongly question the logic. Eg assuming a local igolfer plays €60 per year sub to Golf Ireland and 12 green fees/opens at €40 a pop. They're sitting on a total outlay of €540 in a year. That can cover membership in plenty of courses for unlimited golf plus the other benefits.

I'll cherry pick here from google for current examples and exclude distance memberships for obvious reasons:

• Castlegregory ~€500 full member, €350 introductory member.
• Blessington Lakes ~€599 full member.
• Moate €650 full member.
• South Meath €500 full member
• Birr - €478 year 1, €628 year 2.
• Portlaoise €425 full member.
• The Heath €500 year 1 or €1100 for 2 years.
• Tullamore €468 introductory membership.
• Bearna €600 year 1 full, decreases for year 2.

Any regular igolfer obviously sees the value in joining a local club like above. The person who plays 3-5 times a year is not going to join a club, they weren't in 2024 or in the past. However they may do in future. Likewise for a society golfer. Hopefully the new scheme incentivises these people to take up a membership.

For people who want to throw in their membership because they don't use it. I believe they have to wait 1-2 years before they can join igolf. If someone falls into this bracket I think they were probably "dead money" to clubs anyway. There isn't a collection of public courses with open time sheets to play when you like. So the clubs will still get green fees and have opportunity to tap into potential new members.

There's an opportunity here for golf clubs to capture the igolfer's business and set them up for membership. It has to be done in the right way:

1. Balance restrictions on comps to protect club golfers from banditry. Don't dangle big prizes for bandits.
2. Have some igolfer schemes/bundles (5x green fees, order of merit, play x times get igolfer intro member special year 1, green fees + pro lesson bundle).
3. Expand membership options like pay to play, 5 days, off peak etc. Give more choice.
4. Make the igolfers feel welcome. If it becomes too much of "us vs them" sentiment, who'd want to join that club?
5. Societies - most clubs already have recurring visits and relationships. Lots of these people here will take up the scheme so they have a handicap to track. Often they play 2-3 societies and a common handicap would be welcomed. Added bonus of scores going to WHS for visibility.

Big clubs are not going to lose loads of members, some even have waiting lists. High end ones are a real luxury and that proposition won't change. I think it may make lots of clubs reconsider joining fees however. The only outlier is the small number clubs that relied solely on cheap distance or pay to play memberships to survive. They may have to reviewer their operating model or seek some sort of grant/scheme from Golf Ireland.

In the absence of public courses and no guarantee for to igolfers on tee sheet availability, I don't believe there's a threat to the vast majority of clubs.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330245#Comment_122330245

Still - I think the system absolutely suits someone like me tbh. They've definitely done enough analysis to show that it's a good system once they market it correctly to the right people. Golf Clubs themselves are absolutely awful at Marketing and while some will see no negative hit, some other clubs will, and will start scrambling in a panic then

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330416#Comment_122330416

It's a positive step, I agree. Quite clear that the communication with clubs hasn't been great given the fear being expressed.

Tbf golf is very traditional and stuck in its ways so change is always difficult.

bobster453

I know the official figures from England Golf look very positive but wonder on breakdown do they favour city clubs vs country clubs or one region vs the other.

Be interesting to see 2 or 3 years on how clubs in different regions view it now.

Agree clubs offering cheap distance membership may be in trouble..one synonymous with this appears to be rebranding itself more as an adventure destination for kids rather than a golf club anymore..most of their social media posts are pushing this.

REFLINE1

Came across this article at the weekend.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/ive-just-discovered-ive-been-inadvertently-cheating-for-years-am-i-the-problem-or-do-golfs-handicap-rules-need-to-change

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355654#Comment_122355654

I often play with friends who don’t have official handicaps or aren’t golf club members. In those instances, I send off my score for attestation to someone who hasn’t witnessed my round but has the MyEG app. 

This article is fairly stupid IMO, but this paragraph in particular made me laugh.

There is no way this guy ever thought this was ok to do. What would be the point in attesting a round that you didn't witness?

An attestation system where everyone and anyone could just attest would be entirely pointless too. When a club member or an iGolf member attests, at the very least you know that this attestation is tied back to a known individual. That individual can then be queried if there are discrepancies, and the individual is less likely to take liberties with attestation when their own account is linked to it.

If anyone could just attest there is nothing stopping anyone starting a round with Joe Bloggs as the attester, but Mr Bloggs doesn't actually exist and is merely the players own alter-ego signing off on their own score.

REFLINE1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355863#Comment_122355863

yeh he comes across pretty idiotic tbh. From what i hear this type of thing is pretty prevalent in the US as well.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356204#Comment_122356204

Golf in the US is a different beast entirely. They cheat and they don't even hide it. The rules of the sport are more like guidelines over there.

Breakfast balls, mulligans, gallery balls, they've a rule to get themselves a free drop in almost any scenario.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355654#Comment_122355654

brutal and illogical attitude in that article

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356411#Comment_122356411

I've read about some club competitions there where you can buy Mulligans before you start. Imagine having 5 or 6 shots you could replay per round!

Also they don't seem to play provisional balls like we do. Just drop where you think ball was lost and play on. Huge difference between hitting your 3rd off the tee or 250 yards down the hole where you roughly think it went.

Also allowing generous gimmie's in rounds even stroke play is pretty mad

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357457#Comment_122357457

Yes and then after their 5 mulligans and 3 free gallery drops they'll be telling you how they broke 80.

I dunno if any of you read r/Golf on reddit but it's hilarious reading some of their questions, their golf culture is just totally different.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355654#Comment_122355654

Regardless of whether he's with iGolf or GE, the app has the same principle. Someone needs to attest/mark the score AND have witnessed the round.

You could systemize it so that BRS/Clubv1 and other software providers sync the tee time details into the GE central database so it can only be attested by those on the slot. Just waiting on someone to come in and derail the argument citing data protection.

slave1

Back to topic please folks

downthemiddle

Golf Ireland have announced a three year step down period from club membership before you can join the Independent Golfer scheme.

alxmorgan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458320#Comment_122458320

Where did you see this ?

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458458#Comment_122458458

Stand-down period increase to 3 years

The initial proposed 12-month period has been reviewed by the Golf Ireland Boardand increased to 3 years.As a result, the stand down period in Ireland will be three times longer than any othergoverning body has implemented globally and means a golfer leaving a club wouldnot be permitted to obtain a handicap through the scheme for at least three years.This extension has been put in place based on feedback given by clubs and to provideadditional reassurance to those that were concerned about losing existing members.

https://static.clubhouse.golfireland.ie/clubs/1000/uploads/files/play_golf/2024%20ig%20august%20update.pdf

bobster453

That will keep a lot of clubs happy..or happier maybe.

coillcam

Fair play to whoever is involved, they really rolled that back and listened to club concerns. It will protect existing membership numbers 100%. Clubs relying on distance membership won't be burned badly at the beginning but in time it'll catch up.

Makes the choice for indo golfers a little tougher when considering membership. If they join a club it's then 4 years before they can go back to indo golfing. The counter argument is that it means only those serious about membership will want to join. Any indo golfer the fence and willing to punt on membership won't take the risk.

Perhaps they'll put an exception in that if someone was previously an indo golfer for x period they'll give them a pass on trying membership for a year followed by no stand down or a shorter stand down. This thing will evolve and change over next few years like whs.

Another interesting point on the release that went out is that some money retained from the indo scheme will be ring fenced and put back into club supports/development. Remains to be seen what that looks like.

alxmorgan

As someone who was a member for many years and stepped away due to kids and time pressure this is good news. I don't know if I can justify membership yet so a year or two to dip back in and see how it goes is ideal for me.

elacsap

Has there been any update when this will come into play?