Moving of senior civil servants out of a government department.

political analyst

If a new minister in a particular government department is silent on the question of whether or not he/she has confidence in a senior civil servant who served the new minister's predecessor in that department and the civil servant is moved to a different department even though that civil servant was simply obeying the predecessor's instructions, why would the new minister not want that civil servant in his or her department anymore?

Calahonda52

For someone with this moniker, you display a poor understanding of how it works

Esel

One paragraph, one sentence, one question...

HildaOgdenx

Mod - Moved to CA.

Local charter now applies.

HalloweenJack

Civil servants are permanent, ministers are (very) temporary.

Ministers should not be allowed to move career civil servants with years of relevant experience around because of some perceived good working relationship with their predecessor (if this is what you're getting at).

Sure, you'll get lots of uppity politicians promising to shake things up and move "pen-pushers" around but, afaik, its very hard (if not impossible, short of a "hostile work environment" approach) for them to do so and rightly so. There are plenty of ministers who have no experience in the field of their portfolio. The CS actually do the groundwork for the policies ministers want to implement. It'd be foolish and petty to be moving them around like chess pieces for no good reason, especially given that the ministers themselves may be out of the job in a few months.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058350492/moving-of-senior-civil-servants-out-of-a-government-department

Politics.

What you need to remember is the Minister is the one with all the power here, and the final say.

Civil Servants work for the Government, not the other way around. Even senior ones.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105315#Comment_122105315

If the previous minister was forced to resign (and later turned out to have been falsely accused) and the civil servant in question was simply obeying that minister's instructions (and there was no criminality involved, by the way!) then why would the current minister blame that civil servant for the controversy?

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105263#Comment_122105263

The flip side of this is that there are career senior civil servants who have risen the ranks based on a default promotion policy of years of service and or rising to the level of their incompetency with no accountability for ineptitude, poor performance or just running down the clock.

HSE is a mess - who gets it in the neck? The sitting minister who maybe in the job for 4 years max and the CEO - the latter will get a golden handshake when moved on after doing very little to reform the department he/ she is responsible for . What happens the sitting senior civil servants just under the minister , the likes of the secretary general and senior department staff who have been in the department for decades? pensions, consultancy jobs and no repercussions. If it was the private sector you'd be out on your ear after a year for the levels of mismanagement and incompetency.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105315#Comment_122105315

you would think that. a reasonable thought process.

but Ive heard that the reality is a bit different and many minister face difficulties with senior civil servants.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106326#Comment_122106326

The HSE is not a civil service body. You'd sometimes wonder if the HSE was run by the civil service would it actually do its job. As a general rule in this country, entities that are ring fenced from the civil service and are headed up by political appointees outside the normal civil service accountabilify structures perform poorly. Think of RTE and Irish Water as other examples.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106355#Comment_122106355

That's a very interesting point. I didn't realise that. I assumed it was under the management of the department of health.

Proof if needed that whatever system there is - there is no real accountability other then lip service.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105315#Comment_122105315

Civil servants work for the state, not the government.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106344#Comment_122106344

Senior civil servants can disagree with the Minister of course - they'd be worthless if they didn't put their cases across, given their knowledge and experience. They're not meant to be Yes wo/men after all. But ultimately, the Minister can always over-rule the civil servant, no matter how senior they are, and even if s/he is a new incumbent to the brief.

I have been a member of staff in both a Minister's Office, and a Sec Gen's Office at different times and I've seen and heard some things, first hand. That's all I'm going to say ! 🙈🙉🙊

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106326#Comment_122106326

Seeing that you mentioned the HSE, that is where Brian Purcell was transferred from the Department of Justice after Frances Fitzgerald became justice minister after Alan Shatter's resignation - and that is the case I had in mind for this thread. Purcell merely obeyed instructions when Shatter was his boss - why would Fitzgerald punish him for that?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122112975#Comment_122112975

Any chance theres more to it than you have outlined?

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122112975#Comment_122112975

I brought up the HSE off the top of my head as an example - we all know its an absolute disaster. My dealings with Department officials have been with the Dept of Agriculture. In a way your example demonstrates the fundamental fault with the minister > senior department official(s) in terms of accountability. The person in question can simply obey the instruction knowing full well it may be the wrong course of action , but they will not be held accountable. The next minister comes along, rinse and repeat. Also the minister cant 'punish' anyone - or at least not in the same meaning as it would happen in the private sector.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114090#Comment_122114090

From what I remember, Fitzgerald was silent on the question of whether or not she had confidence in Purcell.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106326#Comment_122106326

The flip side of this is that there are career senior civil servants who have risen the ranks based on a default promotion policy of years of service

You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121345#Comment_122121345

Enlighten me so.

Hotblack Desiato

As already pointed out, HSE is not civil service.

Promotion on senority went decades ago and didn't apply at the top level anyway.

EchoIndia

All civil service ranks are open to public competition - including SecGen appointments. The perception that some people have of a system which is populated solely by career civil servants is way out of date. I know people who have entered the civil service at quite senior levels (AP/PO/A-Sec), from senior non-public sector jobs, and none of them have found it to be the sinecure of popular belief.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114943#Comment_122114943

If a senior civil servant is asked to implement something by the Minister, they have to do it. We live in a democracy and the Minister is part of the elected Government.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133967#Comment_122133967

So true as in Yes Minister.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133967#Comment_122133967

Which demonstrates a fundamentally flawed system.

1. The civil servant blindly obeying an instruction even if they know it wont work . ( As a separate point I cant really accept that a newly appointed minister comes up with new schemes and ideas off the top of his head or without the advice and input of his senior civil servants & advisors - but that's another days discussion)
2. Appointing a politician with no relevant experience as a minister of a department. Did you hear the one about the lad who studied journalism for a bit then became minister for health? , he was elected on the 15th count and is now the taoiseach ( again another days discussion)

Also - not sure what point was being made by saying 'we live in a democracy' ?

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136654#Comment_122136654

Re 1, you'd be surprised. The way the system actually works versus how it is meant to work can be quite different. You might think policy would be informed by evidence and advice, but sometimes the policy comes first (e.g. in an agreed Programme for Govt.) and arguments in its favour then have to be supported. Civil servants do give advice (the wise ones do so in a formal way, in writing, so that it is clear and on the record for the future) but ultimately Ministers decide and, unless something is illegal or utterly reckless, it is the job of the civil service to implement it. The other thing to say is that civil servants often have to implement policies that may not align with their personal values or views, but that goes with the territory. It should be borne in mind too that civil servants are prohibited from involvement in politics and this in practice extends to not expressing political views in public or engaging in public debate on political issues. So, while the civil service is a popular punchbag for politicians, the media and other commentators, for the most part there is no public right of reply. I'm not saying that criticism is never justified but it often seems to stem from long-held assumptions and rarely from any in-depth experience within the civil or public service.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105263#Comment_122105263

I think Civil servants should be subject to the employment modus operandi of the private sector.
IE: If you crap at you're job, you get fired.

Civil Servant Unions and the Temporary Nature of TD's and what not, mean this is next to impossible.

Like you could be crap at your job, the new minister will (hopefully) recognize this after a year, and instruct who ever it is to do the HR thing, whether that's a PPP or what ever. You could theoretically last the 4 years without being sacked, at which point a new Government is elected, which means a new minister and the process starts again. Realistically speaking a cabinet reshuffle, which often happens mid term means this process is even easier for you.

A new boss every 2 years and a Union backing you up means it's very easy to go under the radar and not do a tap.

Civil servants are also very resistant to change, even simple stuff like processing orders for equipment is done one order at a time in many Depts as opposed to more efficiently doing them in batch.

Any civil servant I've ever talked to or worked with has ALWAYS talked a great game, but the reality is most of them would die of hunger in the real world if there wasn't social welfare supports

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137964#Comment_122137964

You make it sound like they are almost a different species and that they have only ever worked in the civil service. Your analysis is simplistic and outdated in this and other respects. Nowadays, increasingly, civil servants have worked in other sectors, including(!) the private sector. Also, it is no longer a job-for-life for many, so some move on to other roles, whether in the public or private sector.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138214#Comment_122138214

I thought we were talking about senior civil servants?? Most of the senior people working there have been there a very long time.

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Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137964#Comment_122137964

I think Civil servants should be subject to the employment modus operandi of the private sector.
IE: If you crap at you're job, you get fired.

The private sector is absolutely swimming in crap employees. I don't know how this trope of the ruthless private sector eliminating underperforming employees has become so prevalent.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138884#Comment_122138884

Indeed it is, but in many industrial sectors (From tech right the way through to factory work) at the moment there's a heap of day rate contractors doing Full Time employee work, the idea being that if they turn out crap it's easy to just not renew their contract.

It's getting easier and easier to fire under performing people in Ireland as we embrace all the multinationals. In many cases under performers are asked to leave, the idea being that if you're fired, it could impede you getting another job in the future cause Ireland is so small and everyone knows everyone.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137506#Comment_122137506

The more weaselly politicians and commentators love nothing more than an easy target who can't talk back. So the civil service fits their needs perfectly.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138884#Comment_122138884

Hah!

My wife used to have a boss who was a complete waste of space. But he'd played rugby with the big boss so he was untouchable. Financial services sector.

purifol0

Alfter reading the responses here and dismaying, can I kindly suggest you all go watch "Yes, Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister".

It's very least you could do. And you certainly could do with it.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140507#Comment_122140507

Yeah there's a lot of that goin on too.

A Big Bank that's shutting it's doors in a number of days had major problems with that carry on, eventually overseas management came in, stripped the whole lot back and decided to exit the Irish market.

Like if you have enough underperforming staff, even large institutions like banks will feel the hit.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140560#Comment_122140560

Very droll.