How far does an EV really go? On a cold horrible day in winter - several current EVs tested

unkel

The result isn't surprising, none of them make the official range, not in the least because of the weather and because the driving pattern used is far harsher than used for the WLPT cycle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c10Ck84QgEI

Ev fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338632/how-far-does-an-ev-really-go-on-a-cold-horrible-day-in-winter-several-current-evs-tested

Just to add a current example of driving in cold horrible weather- Yesterday morning I drove from Dublin across the M50 up to Sligo. Snow /sleet and a lot of water on the roads- temperature around 2/3 degrees a lot of the way. In a Born 58kWh- started at 100% with 345km on GOM. Got home with total distance travelled of 223km and had 20% battery left showing 65km on the GOM. Difficult driving conditions but still got on fine.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121840717#Comment_121840717

That's actually not bad at all, the weather was as bad as it gets. I can only presume with those results you took it fairly handy, probably didn't go over 100km/h?

Ev fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121841042#Comment_121841042

Absolutely. Tricky conditions on the M50 and for some of the way on the M4 with snow slush and all the water. Once I got on clearer road approx 30km out of Dublin was able to drive more normally close to speed limits. On motorway I tend to hover around 103km/hr as its fast enough for me once I can get past the lorries.

BrianD3

That video is a pretty damning indictment of the suitability of EVs for serious driving in 2024 considering the current public charging network etc. The test conditions were poor enough but it was hardly a "cold horrible day" by Irish standards. Temperature was 11 degrees C. The test cycle was mixed driving with the max speed being 5 mph below the Irish motorway speed limit

Test included some of the longest range, most aerodynamic and efficient EVs available and yet the best range achieved to breakdown was 300 miles from the Merc EQE, a car that has apparently had a recent price cut in Ireland with it now now being down to "only" 63k.

In reality, nobody with a brain drives their car until it breaks down. Range would obviously have been lower again if there had been more motorway driving and/or driving at the Irish m-way speed limit and/or the temperature was lower. Add some battery degradation after a year or two for a further decrease. Add in annoyances like not charging the battery past 80% and not fast charging too often in an attempt to limit degradation. All these little things add up. Life is hard enough at times without dealing with this nonsense,

ELM327

For a comparable test, drive petrol and diesel cars in the same situation and see what percentage of their WLTP range or MPG they get.

unkel

No, @BrianD3, those things do not add up. There is virtually no battery degradation in most EVs to make an impact. Roughly 10-15% in 10 years. Who keeps their car that long from new anyway?

WLPT range is only touching on motorway speeds for a few seconds. And only in perfect simulated weather. Real life motorway range or cold weather range is always a lot less, doesn't matter if you have diesel, petrol, hybrid or electric

And yes any experienced EV driver has no problem driving down until there is zero procent. It is easier to estimate in most EVs than in an ICE car. I regularly hit 0% SOC even before I get home.

You charge your EV to 100%, not 80%

The only thing I agree with is that life is hard sometimes 😂 but the pain is eased considerably when you have a car that you can fully charge for €4 - or for free at home from your solar panels - that will never need its drive train serviced and lasts reliably for hundreds of thousands of miles. What a relief compared to dealing with the nonsense of 19th century fossil fuel exploding, cancer causing, climate wrecking combustion cars...

CMOTDibbler

Also laughing at the notion that almost 500km range is somehow unacceptable. In Ireland.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855842#Comment_121855842

Where the average commute was recently said to be between 20km and 30km.

But sure it allows the anti EV brigade to have a moan.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855842#Comment_121855842

It used to be 200km was unacceptable. Then main stream EVs got a range of 300km, and that was then unacceptable. Then 500km and as you say, those same people now say that is unacceptable 😂

For many years now, even in continental Europe, you can do a 1000km trip and the EV is not the limiting factor, the human is. The human who needs resting, feeding & watering and the processes on the other end

But hey, most people are luddites, afraid of change. Desperately making up arguments so they can stay living in the past. It works for them for a while but they will eventually get the wake up call...

n.d.os

The sooner people realise cars don't need huge batteries and massive range in this country, the better. We live on a tiny Island.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855829#Comment_121855829

Ridiculous response I'm afraid. Nice try with the 10-15% degradation over 15 years while failing to mention that the majority of that may well occur over a short number of years. 6 minutes in Bjorn's video below, Tesla Model 3 degradation of 8.2% after 2 or 3 years while many older and smaller battery EVs were far worse than that. if a combustion engine car lost 10% of its range, nobody would notice. With EVs, given the lack of headroom for range reduction and the other factors that affect range and the public charging network, it is an issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUP_uR1lsEY

"Who keeps a car for 15 years". Bingo. We can add that to the list of things that EV owners say to try to deflect criticism. Some people absolutely keep their cars for 15 years (I'm one) And far more people should for financial and environmental reasons.

Driving until 0%, I'm not sure how strongly this correlates with breaking down but either way, it's driving too close to the edge at best and irresponsible at worst. There' a good reason why What Car? did its range tests on a private road.

"never needs its drive train serviced" - yeah well, I suppose if the motor is replaced 13 times in 1.2 million miles (on top of battery replacements) then you're not going to be doing much "servicing" of the drivetrain.

https://jalopnik.com/1-2-million-mile-tesla-model-s-has-gone-through-13-moto-1851081004

The responses are variations of the same old zealot stuff that I've been hearing for years. Maybe you guys could admit, as one EV owner did in another thread, that people buy new electric cars because they like new cars, not to save money

I think what is happening here is people are still losing sight of the fact that EVs are not a Way Of Life but tools and appliances - that even in 2024 are pretty limited for usage that a bog standard and far cheaper combustion car would take in its stride. Yes you'll save heavily on fuel costs with an EV but if the car isn't suitable for serious driving and is used for average driving or puttering about, you're saving large percentage of a small number having paid out 30, 40, 50k or more for that.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855875#Comment_121855875

Yeah, I have regularly done long distance trips on the continent in ICE cars. Max length of time I've driven has been 3 hours or ~300km without a break. Generally though it would be more like 2 hours and ~200-250km. All well within the range of most modern EVs.

dashoonage

On a cold horrible day in winter i dont go far myself.

CMOTDibbler

Ok, this is objectively funny. A car that's done an average of 200,000km a YEAR is somehow indicative of the failure rate of motors and batteries on the average EV.

The headline is hilarious too. "In only 10 years" after the statement that it's done 1.2 million miles ~2 million km.

What's actually surprising is that the car is still going. Don't think you'd find too many ICE cars with that kind of mileage actually still functioning.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856079#Comment_121856079

Even 300km / 3 hours is well more than is recommended for safety.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856115#Comment_121856115

Hilarious. Using a very early EV (bad), made by hand (bad) in the USA (bad) by a new startup company (bad) that got a lot of things wrong in the early days. Yet that car has now done over 2 million km and the bits that went wrong were all replaced under warranty free of charge while the owner was enjoying a free courtesy car worth more than his own with free fuel and free tolls and somehow this is used as a bad example? 😂

Gumbo

Guys don’t feed the troll 😂

”Serious driving” yet the poster goes on about motoring enthusiasts in another thread while saying a Dacia Sandero is a better option.

Yeah, motor enthusiasts he is 😂😂

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856074#Comment_121856074

What do you consider “serious driving”?

Core6

I would be absolutely delighted if my ICE car had only lost 8% of its range, power or any other measurement after 160,000km (100,000 miles).

The vast majority of modern ICE cars will have major engine failures before they get to 200,000 miles -- and many well before that particularly smaller capacity higher revving turbo engines with complex emissions systems.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856301#Comment_121856301

Small capacity turbo charged internal combustion engines are the most annoying thing in automotive history. We all knew the game was up when they became mainstream. ICE clutching at straws. Failed technologies like DMF / DPF / EGR / start-stop and so on and so forth as last doomed to fail attempts to hang in there. Not to even mention the horrific failure of an idea that diesel was supposed to be good for us 🙄

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856277#Comment_121856277

No trolling here and I never claimed to be a motoring enthusiast, just made a comment that Tech bros in performance EVs aren't necessarily either. In general, car enthusiasm is more about the person than the car. Who's more of a car enthusiast, someone with a Mk1 Fiesta that they bring to classic car shows or a tech bro flooring his Model S Plaid so he can post passenger reaction videos on social media until he gets bored of that.

It's absolutely the case that a 17k Dacia Sandero is more usable for doing serious driving in Ireland, in 2024, than any EV. And is far more usable than "affordable" EVs

Driving a car, as many EV owners seem to do, for 10k kms per year, never venturing beyond the M50, celebrating that your battery has only degraded 5% in a year and trading it in after 3 years - that's not serious driving.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856356#Comment_121856356

You take a base Dacia Sandero, I take a Tesla Model S and we do a day of 800km driving in Ireland. And we'll see who is less tired at the end of that day ;-)

Both cars need one fuel stop for that interestingly...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856074#Comment_121856074

More correctly people buy new cars because they like new cars. Applies equally to ICE. No one's buying a 50k car (ICE or EV) to save money.

You go to the bangernomics thread and buy a 2-3k car if you want to spend the least amount of money.

If you don't want to buy an EV don't. Simple as.

Using examples of million mile EV to imply they can't do serious mileage is quite bizarre.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856371#Comment_121856371

From 1000km down to 800 already 😂

The degradation is real

kanuseeme

lol

Gumbo

Again, what do you consider serious driving.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856398#Comment_121856398

more likely that it would be very difficult to do 1000km in a day in Ireland without doubling back on yourself. It's basically Dublin to Galway to Dublin to Galway.

I suppose you could do cork to donegal to athlone.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856356#Comment_121856356

So you now argue that the person who bought an EV to porter around within the M50 have bought the correct vehicle. The correct fuel choice to suit their driving patterns.

So you’re promoting them now.

Who cares what fuel choice people make. It’s a fuel and the people that get hot and bothered by other people’s choices would appear to be the tech bros here that you talk about.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856397#Comment_121856397

At least we're getting some honesty now. EVs are being bought because people like them, not because they make financial sense. New combustion cars don't necessarily make sense either but a 17k Dacia makes a whole lot more sense than a new EV costing 40, 50, 60k.

Advising someone to get a banger if they want to save money is another deflection. Bangers have their own limitations and downside that new cars don't have. The choice here isn't between new 40k EVs and 2k bangers.

The comment about the Tesla with its 13 motors - this one car provided useful info on failure rates and on Tesla. If the car did 100k miles in a year and had one replacement motor, that wouldn't say much. Bad luck, a rare failure etc. 13 failures over 1.2 million miles is a different story entirely. 13 motors, 3 battery packs and who knows what else was replaced. Triggers Broom. But but but Teslas are MUCH BETTER now, maybe they are, time will tell.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856509#Comment_121856509

A 17k new car is a cheaper than a 30k car. Regardless of fuel. Bizarre that you have to misrepresent even simple stuff like that...

"...The results show that new diesel cars cover an average of 12,496 miles in each of their first three years.

This is 67% more than new petrol cars which only do an average of 7,490 miles per year.

Pure battery electric cars are driven an average of 9,435 miles per year. Looking at a selection of individual electric models:..."

https://www.racfoundation.org/research/mobility/new-car-mileage

Flinty997

Just curious looked up the stats about annual mileage of EVs Vs ICE it seems they are more or less the same.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/electric-vehicles-news/what-range-anxiety-ev-drivers-rack-up-more-miles-than-those-using-tradition/

There's a few studies and they all say the same thing more or less.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856398#Comment_121856398

Haha, you got me there! One of my biggest flaws on boards is that I often post immediately and only after that read what I just posted. In this case on reflection I thought 1000km in a day in Ireland in a private car is pretty absurd. In my 30 years of driving here, I don't think i have ever even done 800km. Also on paper both cars could do 1000km with just one stop for charging, but in real life that might be pushing it for one of them or both. Hence my ninja edit.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856150#Comment_121856150

Depends. In France/Croatia I could drive for 4 hours and only need to stop for border/bladder. Northern Italy/UK I start to feel tired after 3. Germany, I'm exhausted after 2 :)

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857000#Comment_121857000

You probably covered more miles in Germany after 2 hours than in 4 hours in Croatia 😁

Core6

In terms of running costs the petrol 3 cylinder engine will give 46 mpg (according to HonestJohn) or 5.1 litres per 100km .

If an owner was to do 15,000km in a year @ a cost of €1.70 per litre that would cost €1,300.

The same mileage on my Model 3 cost me just over €300. That is mostly charging at home with a few uses of public chargers but I don't have PV solar panels.

Saving €1,000 (or more) per annum on 'fuel' comparing petrol against electric changes the financial metrics.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857604#Comment_121857604

If you actually cared about financials you wouldn't buy a new car though - even pre EV it was never financially a 'good move' to buy a new car.

And you likely could buy a new petrol car with required range for much cheaper than an EV with required range, because batteries are expensive. Fuel tanks less so.

The cost conscious consumer is more likely to buy 2nd hand, which is where EVs would do well except there isn't enough supply because there aren't enough being introduced into the market through new car purchases. 15% of the market this year

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857604#Comment_121857604

wrong mpg, your using US gallons, 46 mpg imperial is 6.27l/100 km, about 300 euro more,

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857727#Comment_121857727

I'm getting 6.14l/100km. Totalling €1,565.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857768#Comment_121857768

Jeez sorry, I was going from memory, its what my 225xe does on petrol, 45 mpg,

Flinty997

Have to say, if I had to pick a car for a competition to see how far you go a 1.0 wouldn't really what I'd pick.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856397#Comment_121856397

You’d be surprised with the amount of people in Ireland who will spend €50,000 to save €20 per week in fuel costs, or spending €1,000’s more on a particular car to save €200 a year in road tax.

Old diesel

A bit of context here.

The Model 3 Long Range did 293 miles on the test.

If I put in a Clonakilty (West Cork) to Dublin Airport into the default settings for a Better Route Planner using the Tesla Model 3 Long Range.

The projected charging time is 25 mins for the TOTAL round trip of 634 kms.

It also has you leaving Dublin Airport at 40 percent and needing one 14 min stop to get back to Clonakilty.

Looking at the projected percentages used for each leg of the trip - its clear that ABRP is projecting a range of 270 to 280. Which is less then What Cars test result.

The reality is that modern EVs are more capable then many critics realise.....

micks_address

There is a slight flaw in the argument a car/driver only needs to do 400km daily.. if you have a passenger who also drives then it's quite possible you might want to switch over and go further if doing a long journey.

That said saying a 17k Dacia makes more financial sense than a 60k EV is pointless.. buy what you want.. not what you need. I do wonder about what my 2 year old EV will be like in ten years. I'll hopefully change it next year. It's the curse of being an early adopter. You're always chasing something just a little bit better

micks_address

Also anyone that argues that EVs are more convenient to refuel are somewhat looking at it through rose tinted glasses.. charging at home is class at 5.5 cents kWh but there's no getting away from the **** show lottery of broken down chargers, queues and availability of the public network. The thing that annoys me is we usually bring the car on holidays when by it's nature you want to relax.. you don't need the added hassle of planning your meals or stays or routes around EV chargers.. sounds like I have buyers remorse.. again for 99% of the time it's a non issue..

SteelyDanJalapeno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855829#Comment_121855829

I find myself agreeing with you more times than not recently, but you or maybe another poster in the bargain thread pointed out that charging by solar is not really free anymore with over 20c fit per unit.

micks_address

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859287#Comment_121859287

How is solar not free? Sure it makes more sense to export and get paid more than it costs to import from the grid.. of course you need solar panels and a charger that supports solar excess charging

SteelyDanJalapeno

I'll be honest, one of the main factors I got my id3 in 2021 was because we have free charging in work, I also presume a lot more people do too.

We've done 70k on ours now or 23k a year, over 10 years I'd expect to save close to 20k on fuel alone.

I'll take that

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859126#Comment_121859126

The "more convenient to refuel or not" thing is something massively impacted by the usage pattern of the car.

I personally prefer plugging in a car at home to visiting petrol stations.

So I find the EV more convenient to use.

Others will be different

SteelyDanJalapeno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859318#Comment_121859318

Because some providers like Energia have a very cheap nightly rate now that makes charging them cheaper than charging when you could be exporting

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859287#Comment_121859287

Indeed. I now never charge my car from solar anymore myself. Instead I charge at night for 5c / kWh and I export all my solar and get paid 25c / kWh for that. But that is only since I got my smart meter. Before that, I didn't get paid for anything I exported, so charging from solar PV was free. Also many people with solar PV do not have an "official" install, so even if they had a smart meter, they wouldn't get paid for export. For those people, charging from solar is also free