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Discrepancy Between Electoral Outcomes and Political Representation in Irish Politics

  • 08-02-2024 1:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭


    The state of Irish politics presents a complex tapestry of challenges that call into question the efficacy of democratic processes in truly representing the will of the people. Despite the ostensibly democratic framework, the electoral landscape is riddled with flaws that undermine the principle of fair and representative governance.

    One glaring example of this is the repeated struggles faced by prominent figures like Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin in securing election in their own constituencies. This phenomenon highlights a disconcerting reality wherein elected officials, rather than being direct representatives of their constituents, often find themselves embroiled in protracted battles for legitimacy, raising doubts about the authenticity of their mandates and the extent to which they truly represent the interests of their constituents.

    Moreover, the disproportionate influence wielded by minority parties, such as the Greens, who garnered just over 155,000 votes, in advancing policies despite lacking majority support, further underscores the democratic deficit within the political landscape. The fact that parties with relatively small electoral mandates can exert significant sway over policy-making processes not only dilutes the principle of majority rule but also fosters a sense of disenchantment among the broader electorate, who may feel sidelined in decision-making processes.

    The 2020 success of Sinn Féin in winning the popular vote serves as a stark reminder of the dissonance between electoral outcomes and actual governance. Despite securing the most votes, Sinn Féin's ability to translate this electoral success into meaningful political power has been stymied by the intricacies of coalition-building and the resistance of established political forces.

    The end result is a government formed through a convoluted process that often fails to reflect the genuine desires of the electorate. The mishmash of policies and leadership that emerges from such a fragmented political landscape not only hampers effective governance but also erodes public trust in the democratic process itself.

    This assertion highlights that no one explicitly supported a coalition government comprising Fianna Fáil (FF), Fine Gael (FG), and the Green Party. Personally, I conveyed to my FF representative that my backing was contingent upon their abstention from endorsing a coalition involving FG. Despite this, FF, FG, and the Greens forged an alliance, adjusting policies to retain authority. However, it's crucial to note that this amalgamation of power lacked a democratic mandate, as it wasn't endorsed by the electorate.

    In light of these challenges, it becomes imperative to critically examine and reform the existing political structures to ensure that they are truly reflective of the will of the people. Meaningful reforms aimed at enhancing accountability, promoting transparency, and fostering greater inclusivity within the political sphere are essential to address the deep-seated flaws that currently plague Irish politics and to pave the way for a more robust and genuine democracy.

    Post edited by Ten of Swords on


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    What? Could you elaborate a little?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    Our current democratic process is flawed and lacks true democracy. Did anyone truly vote for a coalition of FF, FG, and the Greens? We urgently need a new system that accurately represents the people's will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭Augme


    Every system is flawed. I still think our one is one of the better flawed systems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭Hyperbollix


    I see no problem with coalitions especially in the social media age. Plenty of western democracies have electoral systems that promote majorities or allow a minority in society to vote for parties that can easily accumulate majorities and they then proceed to wreak havoc by implementing policies beneficial to a tiny section of the population.

    If anything, having an electoral system that routinely requires compromise in order to form a government is probably a useful safeguard against the kind of madness we see playing out in other countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Notmything


    They didn't struggle to get elected, they split their potential vote to try get a running mate elected alongside them. Any struggle to assert their "legitimacy" is down to not understanding how things work.

    That you don't grasp this is not a good sign. Irish elections are about getting past the quota, whether you do this on count 1 or count 5 is not important.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Need to go back to Edmund Burke. Once anyone is elected to Parliament, their job is to exercise their judgement, not reflect the views on their constituents on every issue. If it were so, we'd probably be still hanging people in most countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    How can our system be considered better when a party, supported by only 155,700 voters, holds significant influence over larger parties? These parties, driven solely by a desire to cling to power, implement policies that impact every one of us



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    When you cast your vote , did you vote for a Green, FG, and FF colation?

    I would suggest you voted for the policies of the party you voted for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    Or they implement the policies they were elected on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    I advocate a first-past-the-post system as a more fairer system.

    The First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system is a robust electoral method that ensures the majority win by awarding victory to the candidate who garners the highest number of votes within a specific constituency. This straightforward approach provides clarity and transparency in electoral outcomes, as it directly reflects the preferences of the majority of voters in that particular area. By prioritizing the candidate with the most votes, FPTP fosters a system where winners are determined based on the support they receive from their constituents, thus upholding the principle of majority rule.

    Moreover, the simplicity of the FPTP system contributes to a more accessible and understandable electoral process for voters, as they can easily identify the winner based on the candidate with the highest vote count. This simplicity can promote greater voter engagement and participation, as individuals are more likely to feel empowered by a voting system that is clear and intuitive.

    Furthermore, FPTP's emphasis on majority victory aligns with democratic principles by ensuring that elected representatives have a clear mandate from their constituents. By electing candidates who have garnered the most votes in their respective constituencies, FPTP facilitates the formation of stable and accountable governments that are reflective of the broader preferences of the electorate.

    In essence, the First Past the Post voting system, with its focus on awarding victory to the candidate with the majority of votes in a given constituency, provides a reliable and democratic method for determining electoral outcomes, thereby fostering a closer approximation of democratic principles in the electoral process.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,718 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I think quite a few posters here already misunderstand what PRSTV is, and the inherent benefits and flaws alike.

    I'm happy to take suggestions from those same posters of what they would replace it with...?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The person getting 35% of the vote can get elected, whilst 65% did not want them elected. UK shows that FPTP is crap. Most European countries are governed by coalitions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭Hyperbollix


    Indeed. If you knew nothing about the detail, just knowing that FPTP is the system of choice for the Tory party, is enough to know it's a steaming pile of shít.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    The suggestion that the First Past the Post electoral system is ludicrous is unfounded. Under this system, the majority of constituents have their favored politician represent them, and this representation extends across the country in each constituency, ultimately forming a government based on majority rule.

    The system's effectiveness lies in its adherence to the principle of majority ruling, ensuring that the government reflects the preferences of the majority of voters. Contrary to the assertion that it favors any particular political party, the reality is that governments in each country are subject to change, reflecting the dynamic nature of democratic politics. Therefore, dismissing the First Past the Post system as flawed fails to acknowledge its fundamental principle of majority representation and the fluidity of democratic governance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,615 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    OP clearly doesn't understand PRSTV in post #1, and in most recent post makes clear they have little or no understanding of FPtP either if they think it 'awards victory to the candidate with the majority of votes'. Good thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    The Green Party secured 7.1% of the vote, yet they hold a share of power.

    Micheál Martin was elected on the 9th count with 19% of the first preferences, yet he served as Taoiseach and now as Tánaiste.

    Leo Varadkar was elected on the 5th count with 19% of the first preferences, yet he is now Taoiseach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited



    As evident from the example provided, the Conservatives secured the seat because the majority of voters supported a specific candidate. Conversely, other candidates failed to garner sufficient popular support.

    The notion that Liberal Democrat voters would have opted for Labour to prevent the election of a Conservative MP does not align with democratic principles; rather, it suggests political interference aimed at manipulating the electoral outcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I'm not saying that is AI generated specious bullshit...

    But there's a 98% probability that this is AI generated specious bullshit ;)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    Anyone claiming FPTP is better or more democratic than PR-STV is only demonstrating their ignorance of both systems.

    To even further claim that FPTP is preferable because it more accurately reflects the will of the electorate is just clownshoes level thinking.

    For all its flaws, PR-STV is leagues ahead in terms of FPTP in pretty much every single metric imaginable. All the latter does is lead you down the inevitable path towards a two party system and the ingrained unfairness/anti-democratic nature of everything that follows. Just take a look at the shitshow that is the US presidential elections for an example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭Augme


    Because those larger parties asked them to join the Government and to become government ministers. A better question ask is, why should larger parties who got the majority of support from people, not be allowed form a government with the parties of their choice?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited



    So your counter argument is simply to label me as a bot?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,615 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    You are coming up with some insane stuff here.

    If the Liberal and Labour candidates and voters agree on a huge amount of policy issues, then clearly the 59.3% of voters are being 'robbed' by having a Tory winner. It's a pretty obvious flaw of FPtP.

    The extreme example is if 10 centre-ist candidates all poll 9%, and one ultra-extremist candidate (left or right wing) polls 10%, then the extremist wins.

    But carry-on - the PRSTV system ain't changing anytime soon so your madness goes nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,379 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Well this is a load of rubbish anyway.

    FPTP leads to stupid scenarios where your vote isn't really valuable in a bunch of seats (either you support a candidate who is absolutely going to win by a mile, or the direct opposite), it leads to issues where a big-ish party can come along and get a tonne of votes but no seats (UKIP got 12% of the vote in the 2015 UK general election and got no seats).

    Whether a TD is elected on the first count or last count doesn't really affect how legitimate or otherwise the TD is, so that's a nonsense. And this idea that people don't understand how to vote is also a nonsense, it's a simple ranking in order, nothing else.


    To show why FPTP is so bad, you can see that the Tories in the UK, who love FPTP, don't use it to vote for their own leader even (if they did FPTP David Cameron wouldn't have been leader, neither would Liz Truss).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I've not labelled you a bot, I have said that your post is AI generated specious bullshit. Pop that into your GPT and it will offer a response more cogent than your OP ;)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited



    I run my posts through a spell and grammar checker. Grammar nazi!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,379 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    That's not a majority, that's a plurality. The majority of the votes here did not vote Tory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,379 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    We don't have a presidential system, we have a parliamentary system. You vote for individuals who make up the overall parliament, who then vote for the Taoiseach based on the breakdown of TDs. The fact that a TD is voted on the first count or last count doesn't matter.

    Also, we are broken into many constituencies around the country. If we went based on a national poll only, local issues and local preferences would be ignored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Where did I offer an opinion on your spelling or grammar? Are you saying that your spell check/grammar check amended your draft post to the extent that it is recognised as 98% probability of AI authorship?

    You'd best share the name of the software so any students on here can know what to avoid, imagine if scribbr, Grammarly or any of the other tools generated a false positive of 98%?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭redunited


    Why are you checking my posts anyhow? Is your life so boring that you check other posters' posts for AI content instead of replying to the topic?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    This is like foundation level politics.........

    38.3% is not a majority, it is a plurality

    The remaining people....aka.....everyone who didn't vote Tory.......make up 62.2%, which IS A QUALIFIED MAJORITY

    The majority of the people are being ignored because the system is set up in an undemocratic way.

    Your last line is astonishingly lacking in self awareness. It is far, far easier to manipulate the electorate or interfere with your opponents in a FPTP system.

    Here's a scenario:

    Imagine you live in a town where there's a proposal to build a piggery right beside the school. 66% of the town don't want it, while 34% do want it and you have two politicians campaigning along those lines (one who does and one who doesn't). If you were the person who wants it, you're most likely gonna lose the vote. So you ask your mate to run on a campaign of "well, okay, we do want it but it has to be a sheep farm instead of pigs" and another to run on "okay, a pig farm is fine, but the operating hours must be X until Y" and a third mate to run on "we'll build the farm but it has to be away from the school".

    If those three mates take 11% of voters away from the no side each, the 34% wins and the will of the people is subverted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    My AI says your AI is wrong....

    The assertion that Irish politics is plagued by challenges that cast doubt on the efficacy of democratic processes warrants a closer examination. While it is true that no political system is flawless, let’s address the specific points raised:

    • Complexity and Challenges:The premise acknowledges the complexity of Irish politics, which is indeed multifaceted due to historical, cultural, and social factors.
    • However, complexity does not inherently invalidate democratic processes. Rather, it reflects the intricate interplay of diverse interests and viewpoints within a democratic society.
    • Struggles Faced by Prominent Figures:The claim that figures like Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin struggle to secure election in their constituencies is not unique to Ireland. Such electoral battles occur in many democratic systems.
    • These struggles are a testament to the competitive nature of elections, where candidates must engage with voters, articulate their positions, and earn legitimacy.
    • Rather than undermining democracy, this process ensures that representatives are accountable to their constituents.
    • Disproportionate Influence of Minority Parties:The assertion that minority parties, like the Greens, exert disproportionate influence despite limited electoral support raises valid questions.
    • However, it is essential to recognize that coalition governments often require compromise and negotiation. Smaller parties can contribute fresh perspectives and hold larger parties accountable.
    • Their influence is not inherently undemocratic; it reflects the pluralistic nature of democratic governance.
    • Sinn Féin’s Electoral Success and Governance:The 2020 success of Sinn Féin in winning the popular vote highlights the disconnect between electoral outcomes and actual governance.
    • Yet, this dissonance is not unique to Ireland. It occurs in parliamentary systems worldwide.
    • The intricacies of coalition-building and the need for consensus often lead to compromises. While Sinn Féin secured votes, forming a stable government requires more than mere popularity.
    • Coalition governments, while complex, represent a balance of interests and prevent domination by any single party.
    • Government Formation and Representation:The claim that the end result is a government formed through a convoluted process is accurate. However, this process is inherent to parliamentary democracies.
    • Coalition agreements reflect the will of multiple parties, aiming to represent diverse constituencies.
    • While compromises occur, they do not necessarily negate genuine representation. Instead, they reflect the art of governance in a diverse society.

    In summary, Irish politics faces challenges, but these challenges are not unique to Ireland. They are inherent to democratic systems, where complexity, electoral battles, coalition dynamics, and compromise coexist. Rather than eroding trust, these processes underscore the resilience of democratic institutions1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Why should anyone be bothered to put any more effort into replying to your topic, than you put into creating it?

    EDIT,

    Again. please let folk know which correction and grammar check you are using. As if there's one out there that generates a 98% AI authorship score, it needs to be called out as a danger to students, writers and academics. You would be doing a mitzvah ;)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    Because it's such bullshit that it could only have come from a source that doesn't know its arse from its elbow. Your complete refusal to tackle any of the points raised only proves this further. You don't know what you're talking about, clearly.

    Why are you using AI to create threads, can you not type your own thoughts and feelings on the matter?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Even their replies are via AI,

    This time though they did at least contribute 4% ;)

    As for the OP pondering if my life is so boring that I have nothing better to do than query their use of AI? Funnily enough, spotting AI and its uses is one of the things I feel is important for student and academic integrity.

    Also, why get so upset about someone pointing out your use of AI? Its not like its your work that's been called out? I put as much effort into doing it, as you put into posting it, i.e not a lot😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭davetherave


    Just to humour the OP, here would be the results assuming a FPTP still with the same amount of seats per constituency. Big jump for FF.



    This is done purely on 1st preferences with the top 3/4/5 getting the seats based off the 1st count. The difference over the actual election results is as below.


    • SF: +2
    • FF: +10
    • FG: -2
    • G: -3
    • LAB: No Change
    • PBP: -2
    • Ind: -2
    • I4C: -1
    • SOC Dem: -2


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    "The green party got 7% of the vote, yet they hold 7.5% of the power (12 seats out of 160).....oh the Humanity!!!!!!"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A bit of ambiguity in politics is a good thing it gets things done and prevents ideologically based politics from getting too much of a hold in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Firstly you don't understand what the word majority means, the majority of voters in your image actually voted for candidates other than the tory, therefore the tory did not as you claim get a majority of the votes.

    Secondly there has only been 1 single government in the UK elected in the past 100 years by a majority of voters ie more than 50%, hilariously and unfortunately for your anti-coalition argument it was the con/lib dem coalition.

    An example is the current tory government in 2019 won 365 seats out of 650 which is a 56% majority of seats, however they only got 43.6% of the vote which is very much not a majority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,748 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    What nonsense, both in the OP and in this post.

    Sinn Fein did not win the popular vote in the last election. They only got a minority of votes. 71% of the people voted for Sinn Fein to stay out of government, they could only get support from Aontu and PBP.

    A huge majority of the population didn't want Sinn Fein anywhere near government and that is the outcome they got.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,748 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is great news if true. If the OP was an AI generated post, it means that such nonsense can be spotted reliably and consistently.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭Paranoid Bob


    If you are going to get upset about the political process in Ireland than I'd suggest there is a much bigger problem than the power exercised by small parties in coalition.

    As Walter John noted: Once anyone is elected to Parliament, their job is to exercise their judgement, not reflect the views on their constituents on every issue.

    I'd add to that and say it is the representatives job to exercise their judgement, not blindly follow party leadership on every issue. In Ireland the party whip is applied to virtually every vote. Representatives have no opportunity to reflect either their conscience or their constituents' views in votes in the Dáil. Whenever a party member comes to my door looking for a vote I ask them why I should care who they are or what their views are, because when it comes to their voting history what matters is who their party leader is and what the party politics are. I have no reason to care who the candidate is; I have no control on the selection of their party leader or on the parties policies. This is confirmed by the fact that on the few occasions where I write to a representative to express a view on a policy or upcoming vote the response I get is always a template party response with no input from my representative.

    My representative has no capacity to actually represent my views, or even their views. The only views they can represent are those of the party.

    We should have more free votes in the Dáil and the practice of 'pairing' should be abolished. That way we could actually judge our representatives on what matters; their voting history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I've posted screenshots of the AI analysis tool I used on a couple of the OP's posts on this thread. OP has claimed he uses a spell checker/Grammar tool. I've asked him which one as any that gets reported as 98% + 96% ai generated? Needs to be flagged to allow students and other writers relying on the tool, be saved the ignominy of being accused falsely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    Proof is in the pudding, and we are currently governed by 2 parties with jobsharing taoisigh, neither of which secured a mandate from the people to govern. And then we have the Shinners waiting in the wings, ready to coast on the votes of people who want more freebies. One thing is for certain, change on a national and local level is impossible, as grassroots political organization has been priced out of the market. I'd argue we get the government we deserve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    Oh that settles that, nothing wrong with Irish politics, back to work everyone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    How in your opinion do you secure a mandate to govern?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    So 62% of the voters didn't want a Conservative MP???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    I just asked copilot in Bing for a comment on Electoral results and parliamentary representation in Ireland and it spewed out the following. So enough said. The OP didn't write the OP.

    "The state of Irish politics presents a complex tapestry of challenges that call into question the efficacy of democratic processes in truly representing the will of the people. Despite the ostensibly democratic framework, the electoral landscape is riddled with flaws that undermine the principle of fair and representative governance.

    One glaring example of this discrepancy lies in the repeated struggles faced by prominent figures like Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin in securing election in their own constituencies. Rather than being direct representatives of their constituents, elected officials often find themselves embroiled in protracted battles for legitimacy, raising doubts about the authenticity of their mandates and the extent to which they truly represent the interests of their constituents.

    Moreover, the disproportionate influence wielded by minority parties, such as the Greens, who garnered just over 155,000 votes, in advancing policies despite lacking majority support, further underscores the democratic deficit within the political landscape. The fact that parties with relatively small electoral mandates can exert significant sway over policy-making processes not only dilutes the principle of majority"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Copilot offers the following as a rebuttal to the OP with an analysis of the advantages of PR in Ireland. Chatbots debating themselves...

    1. Diverse Representation: PR-STV allows voters to rank candidates in order of preference. As a result, it leads to more variety for voters, with TDs (Teachta Dála) being returned from multiple parties. This diversity ensures that a broader spectrum of views is represented in the parliament.
    2. Coalition Governments: Due to the proportional nature of PR-STV, coalition governments are quite common in Ireland. Smaller parties have a chance to gain seats, contributing to a more collaborative approach to governance. While this can sometimes lead to complex negotiations, it also fosters compromise and consensus-building.
    3. Avoiding Absolute Majorities: PR rarely produces an absolute majority for a single party. While this may seem like a disadvantage, it ensures that no party has unchecked power. Instead, governments are formed through negotiation and cooperation, promoting stability and preventing extreme policies.
    4. Higher Voter Turnout: PR encourages voter participation. Knowing that their preferences matter, voters are more likely to engage in the democratic process. The ability to rank candidates provides a sense of agency and ownership.
    5. Continuity of Government: Unlike winner-takes-all systems, PR ensures greater continuity of government. Even if a party doesn’t win an outright majority, it can still participate in governing coalitions. This stability benefits policy implementation and long-term planning.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Where does all this leave us when the AI is smarter than the person using it ?

    We find ourselves disagreeing with a position that the proposer is not fit to sustain.

    The death of discussion forums ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,036 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    You are displaying your ignorance by assigning significance to the number of count when a TD was elected.



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