Considering Quitting Farming and letting out the land - opinions welcome

DK man

Hi all,

I am a small part time farmer - 20 acres and 50 ewes.

I have invested in:

50 x 50 shed

sheep fencing and gates etc.

sheep feeders / weighing scales / hurdles etc.

small tractors - fertiliser sower / transport box / sheep trailer / topper

I have put in approx. 50K in all of the above when you include stock

My issue is that I am not making money. I am turning over money as other farmers tell me!

The dept inspector / feed merchant / vet / agri advisor are all making money from my farm - but I am not. And I am the one who is up late at night trudging through the muck and watching sheep etc.

In terms of schemes I was late into farming, age 35 so I didn't get into a lot of the schemes. I rent entitlements which nets me approx. €800 a year - I am in the SIS (Sheep Improvement Scheme) and one or two other small payments which net me approx. €1500 a year in total for all payments. I would say that this what I make after an investment of €250K as I bought the land for €200k. A return of €1,500 on an input of €250,000 is a measly 0.6% - and this is with me working - I would get approx. 3% if I let out the land with no sore back and headaches! I would also make some money in selling a lot of the equipment that I wouldn't need and could have a nice clean shed for other uses.....

I had an inspection recently for the SIS and got a warning letter saying I was going to be penalised over a number of issues. This soured me and has changed my views on what I am doing with my spare time - I am fed up working for other people including dept officials - If there were less fools like me there would be less cosy jobs for them.

Anyways- I am considering letting out the land and making some money and having less hassle.

I have a dairy farmer who has expressed an interest but we haven't talked money yet. I have also met with a spud cereal vegetable grower - who said that they are interested and would offer €400 and acre. I would have to pull out all of the fencing and make one big field. This would either be a 5 or 7 year commitment and would be tax free. I have heard of some local dairy farmers offering €550 and acres for similar land to mine. This was over a year ago and I suppose the dairy farm would need be be close to make it worth their while etc.

I like farming and have no regrets overall - but I am giving serious consideration to walking away from it. I retire in 4 years time and 7 - 8K a year tax free would be a very nice boast to the pension - it would be like getting 16k more on my pension gross.

Any thoughts from fellow farmers would be most welcome.

Thanks

C0N0R

Question I would ask is why did you enter farming in the first place? Was it purely a financial decision or a recreational decision? When you retire will you get more enjoyment from working with your 20 acres or the €8k?

WhichWay

If you enjoy farming keep farming, especially coming into retirement. What else are you going to do?

I'd consider being very selective on the schemes you enter, none appear to be easy money.

If return on investment is the priority then lease tax free or investigate selling.

Perhaps a 1 year lease would be a good idea, just so you can test the water. Make the long term decision then.

Bass Reeves

OP purely from a financial point of view leasing makes most sense. Just wondering have you being doing accounts.farm losses are written off against tax and its amazing the amount t of expenses as well as general farm costs and depreciation. Your car, electricity, phone and energy cat and dog food are deductible items.

You should have more than 800 net out of SFP at this stage on 8HA the Criss and eco are worth 110/HA and you should only be paying 50% at most of the BISS back to the person you are renting from.

As well if you qualify for ANC that is another 100+/HA.

Did you look at the ACRES scheme it might have allowed you to draw another 2k/ year that will not be available another4 years again

Water John

Don't think you'll get away with knocking all the fences.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715770#Comment_121715770

It's sheep fencing I think he is talking about

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715770#Comment_121715770

No issue with knocking fences. Hedges or trees- yes, but not fences.

Siamsa Sessions

Sheep are a lot of work, even with good fencing and facilities. Buy a few calves or weanlings and see what you think of them.

I had 60 ewes on 20 acres up to a few years ago. Good land but it was only half-fenced for them. I started buying calves to run alongside them and got rid of the sheep within two years. All cattle here now and hoping to go milking cows in 2025.

If you can at all, try the few cattle before you make any big decisions.

Water John

Yeah agree, the toss up is, simplifying and milking the schemes or leasing. A few drystock would be away handier than the sheep. Lot of work in sheep.

1848

What are lamb sales like compared to industry targets? You mentioned SIS inspection threw up queries - what were they?

Kevhog1988

Id Stay away from the spud man if I was you. Spuds very hard on the ground.

Could you go organic and farm the payments?

Simplify your sheep system to an easycare outside lambing flock maybe?.

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121715225#Comment_121715225

Good post and needs an answer from the thread author.

What are your plans for retirement? Would you enjoy pottering about your 20 acres looking after some young calves or whatever you have an interest in?

If you have a bit of a grá for it, keep it going and enjoy tending the land. Get in contact with an advisor for suitable grants and schemes.

If you have fallen out with it, no harm. Rent it out and sit back in your retirement.

I'd just suggest you consider what you see yourself doing in retirement before making any decisions here.

older by the day

It's completely and utterly up to yourself. I know men in there eighties still farming, financed with their pensions. I know more who have let the place. Depends on the type of person you are. Have you plans for after retirement.

From your post, you seem to be very good with your figures and 1500, net profit is fairly useless nowadays. So it will be solely a hobby. (And running around chasing after those dirty bastard's of sheep, ain't much of a hobby). I have a neighbor with sheep.

So totally up to you. Money wise, let it. Hobby wise keep it.

Danny healy ray

from what I see there is so many dairy lads getting out and so many more to get out in next few years it really is going to come home to roost lads thinking of letting there land will be hard pushed to get any kind of financial reward

kollegeknight

I’d be in a similar boat.

took over the place 10 years ago this April and things were ok. Mam well looked after and always a few quid to improve the place a little.

officially took over place two years ago and just haemorrhaging money.

payment of €12k to mam was calculated when farm payments were on time and increase was for inflation on her end but nothing on mine.

im at the end of my bridging loan money and still no sign of acres money. I’ve two culls to go but they’ve about 2 months left in TB so dunno should I wait to renew it.

Paid out €150 yesterday for 1 bottle of multmin. 1 bottle of iodine an 1 bottle of that you preventative for tolracol for 7 calves.

i just feel like all Bundy at the opening scene of Married with children.

I’m down to 7 cows calving and the rest are for the road.

haf a few big breakdowns in equipment which are all my money last year- I still didn’t get the 135 sorted and the fencing is at the end of its life again.

all depends on payments this year- I could be due and extra €10k from last years acres but probably will arrive on Dec 31 so can’t be spent for tax bill.

by right I should have refused 10 years ago and bought close to the ocean like was the plan. Go to Oz every summer and let OH and kids enjoy her parents and I plug away on the mines.

Tied up for another 4 years till tax clearances happen.

if anything happens to mam in the next three years and she needs a home, I guarantee the brother will put the bill against the farm first in a fair deal scenario.

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719015#Comment_121719015

I advised you before you have the acres to partner up with a big dairy operation ,surely it is worth considering instead of having to lease out the place and having no say what way the land will be farmed

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719132#Comment_121719132

I remember and thank you. i spoke to my advisor about it and he was totally against it. He said maybe in other counties but not where I am.

there is no lease option, nobody in parish leasing my kind of land.

theres 20 acres for sale for a song near me and before it went for sale, a big dairy man rang advising it was coming up and nobody would be interested.

im hoping to go organic but with the CP acres, my field scores have to improve to qualify for both.

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718216#Comment_121718216

Spuds will last 2/3 years , then the land is drained . If you’ve had sheep they would have ate the weeds , so a couple of bullocks would be good . Pick up the SFP and see if an active farmer will rent it .Plenty of big suckler and dairy farmers looking to rent land

timmyntc

Plant it for forestry, you'd get a 20 year premium and if you still want the hobby side there's some management of the crop you could do yourself.

If you lease the land you'll be hands off entirely, if you're looking for something to keep you busy then avoid leasing.

20 acre forestry would get you ~8k premium on the new scheme also, tax free.

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719371#Comment_121719371

Can’t plant our place- moss growing in between the rushes- forestry man said we wouldn’t never get planning

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719132#Comment_121719132

You need to be in a strong dairy area to lease. See a few places around me and lads went to lease them buy the money was way back what they expected. Last year a dairy farmer released land he had before. Last time it was 180/acre, owner wanted 400/acre, he got 250 and that was only because it was near the dairy farmer and he ( the dairy farmer)had it fenced and water troughs on it.

If it had go e from him the troughs and hose were coming out of it.

Lads trying to lease roughish places are a hundred back off that at least. Know of one lad that has 30 ish acres and it needs work and his expectation are unrealistic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719371#Comment_121719371

His and his mother home are near it I presume, the land is not in his name from previous posts if I remember right as well so planting is not an option.

@kollegeknight I think you need to have a conversation with your mother and brother. 12k/year is not sustainable it takes away the commercial side and prevent a lot of tax efficiency for you. Opened ended inheritance agreements like that are a disaster especially on poorer quality land. I think off hand the farm is 40 ish acres if it was leased it would be lucky to make half that

Hi have you thought of managing you’re farm holistically? Your not the only farmer feeling this way.

Thousands of farmers protesting all over Europe.

https://savory.global/ is what id recommend for a second opinion on how thing’s are managed

and Heather Hill Farm on YouTube or Richard Perkins have brilliant content.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719444#Comment_121719444

Think the farm is 100 acres?

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719444#Comment_121719444

75acres. It’s now in my own name- this is the 3rd year- I had just paid off loans for transfer and taxes and had to get loan to pay off contractors.

about 40 of it is cut away boggy area that traditionally would have been planted- it’s actually in nobody’s eyeline either- only for hen harrier and glas, the 12k wouldn’t be possible at all. It is just about now. But when the dept hold up money- it’s tough.

it will straighten again in a few years but life will be gone past by the time it’s in a position to be improved.

On the leasing side- there is literally only one lad in the parish interested in leasing anywhere- he doesn’t pay- doesn’t mind and whatever you might get in rent, you’d pump double back to repair damage.

he bounds me and owns around 400acres all over the place and won’t pay for a fencer for his own places. My ditches are tough at spots now.

kollegeknight

No talking to the brother- he set up the plan 10 years ago and when mam and I went to put it into action, he tried everything to cause trouble- money went from €7k to €12.

i reckon he thought I’d farm it while mam was alive and then off the Will, plant the whole lot and take his share and the plan was only to keep me fooled.

893bet

Afe you paying the money to your mother as a “salary”. At least then it is an expense in your books but there would be a tax liability at your mothers end.

Water John

Knight, with the land you have, milk every scheme that isn't too onerous, to the max. Stock low, if necessary.

OP's land seems good quality land and he's at a different phase in life. I'd be reluctant to plant it, definitely only with decidious trees, not sitka spruce.

n1st

The only issue I see with letting is that the incoming farmer is under pressure to pay rent and might work the land too hard.

Have a look at reducing or eliminating stock completely. forestry or silage perhaps.

Forestry schemes don't necessarily mean spruce, some good DAFM schemes now which would give you 20k per year.

Organic even with minimum stock,1 bullock per 20 acres will get you the schemes.

Also think that just because it's land it does not necessarily mean that it has to be farmed. Not all land has to be farmed.

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719718#Comment_121719718

Yeah doing that already for a fair bit of it, wouldn’t be possible otherwise.

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719768#Comment_121719768

And apologies to OP for hijacking. 🙈

yeah no non natives trees will be coming near our place. They have destroyed our countryside.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121719786#Comment_121719786

Be part of the solution’s & not the problems

blue5000

The 12k to your mother is breaking you KK. Are you working off farm?

OP I know nothing about sheep, if you are close to retiring agroforestry might work for you with the sheep. But the spud man would no longer be an option.

Agroforestry - Teagasc | Agriculture and Food Development Authority

n1st

Definitely get rid of sheep, they're a nuisance. Try 2 bullocks, hardy types from theses islands, outwinter them. Eat one buy one. No feed no vet no dosing no cost. Very little fencing issues.

Something that keeps you interested and doesn't cost money and time is more like 12 hours or week.

_Brian

I’d suggest planting half, maybe the native forest scheme. That would put a decent base under your yearly income. Then change to a few dairy beef calves. Easy on the land and much less work than sheep. Done carefully they will leave a few €€ behind them.

blue5000

Madd Finn's post and those that quoted it have been deleted.

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121720029#Comment_121720029

Yeah I’m lucky enough to be teaching so I subsidise the farm. Oh works opposite to me and about 25 hours/week. But schedule means a fair bit of child care and I’d have lads most evenings.

she has an SNA course done so if we are lucky, she will be working more for same money but it would be daytime giving me free time at weekends and evenings to do a few bits.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121720842#Comment_121720842

We’re at similar here, trying to juggle part-time jobs with the young lads school and training, and then the farm work after that. Sometimes it works OK, sometimes it doesn’t.

Its one of the reasons I want to go farming full-time.

Water John

Do a cold, hard, economic analysis on that, to give you an objective view. Yes, the other personal health, family time, all then are the counter balance, before arriving at your conclusion, Siamsa.

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721458#Comment_121721458

you wont have too much time for training young lads either if you are milking full time ,any good job most lads close the door after themselves at 4pm days work done ,

n1st

If you're not making a living on it then it's a hobby which is great. However if it affects your family life and finances then it's not a healthy hobby.

It's unfair to pull family into it, I often hear and see farmers pulling their kids in, I was once one, the inheritance of a farm is a huge burden on children too, very restricting on youngsters where the world has opened up an there's huge opportunities.

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721686#Comment_121721686

Very few people are earning decent money and finishing at 4pm... to be earning decent money your in Dublin every day with traffic and a big shift put in...

Siamsa Sessions

It’s a whole other long discussion but from what I’ve seen of life, the idea of a “good job” is long gone.

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721853#Comment_121721853

Very true. The glorifying of off farm jobs can be a bit much at times. Earning decent money is no fun, a lot of the time it is managerial level with long hours and plenty of stress.

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721905#Comment_121721905

Well i will put it like this ,any handy job would be better then milking 40 /50 cows .You seem to be stuck in a rut at what ever job you are at , would it be a better idea to switch jobs before commiting full time to milch cows.I milked cows for 35 years and the reality is the job is getting harder each passing year in every sense and the margin squeezed .If God is in your road ,put that idea of milking out of your head

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721920#Comment_121721920

Id have whats considered a good job. Im a commercial manager for a utility company. I Leave at 6.30am and get home at 8.30pm at least 3 days a week here. Run a team of 6 and when something isn't done on time etc the book stops with me. Answering mails etc pretty much all the time. The days I work from home are no easier with the exception of the commute.

yewdairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721947#Comment_121721947

Farming is a lot easier now in terms of the physical work. My father worked harder in worse conditions than I do. We milk a lot more cows but the work is easier and not nearly as physical demanding

There is more paper work now, some people find that stressful but my father's generation also had to pay 20% interest rates which was brutally stressful aswell

Dinzee Conlee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721920#Comment_121721920

What would be considered decent money? 40k? 50k? 75k ? 100k?

Interested to hear what value people consider decent?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121722063#Comment_121722063

I would also what I consider a ‘good job’ But like that, it’s not a case of the clock hitting 5pm and you stand up and that’s it… Work from home 100%, which is handy, but can be a curse too as people know (and sometimes expect) you can log on and be ‘at work’ in 5 mins…

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121722107#Comment_121722107

I’ve a “good job” too. Doing 10-12 hr days 5 days/week in it at the moment as there’s a deadline for a big funding grant on 28-Feb and my neck is on the line if I don’t do a decent job. It’ll quieten down for a few weeks after that before the next grant deadline comes into view. I’ve 3 line managers, each of whom can call on me at any stage. I’ve left the job 3 times but what I went to turned out to be the same or worse - chasing grant money all the time or trying to show others how to chase it.

This isn’t a whinge. That job has kept a roof over my family’s head since 2008. I’m just trying to say what looks like a good job from the outside usually has plenty unseen downsides. Same as farming.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334459/considering-quitting-farming-and-letting-out-the-land-opinions-welcome

Having read your post, only 50 ewes on 20 acres and you seem to invested a lot of money for what was going to be a small return, you are saying you have invested 1k per ewe on the farm, in machinery and sheep scales and shed etc, complaining about having inspection that showed up issues and having to pay advisors and vet etc which is all part of keeping stock as is lambing and late nights, it seems your heart is no longer in the farming, maybe rent the farm to a lad with sheep who won’t mess fences or the land, sheep is a disease you either like them or not, the kids here were reared with sheep and knock a lot of fun out of them owning their own sheep the youngest girl is lambing ewes since she was four and has taught them the value of money and work and a business eye.

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121722107#Comment_121722107

Good question and I'd like to hear others views on the topic too. My own opinion is that there aren't many handy jobs paying over 50K.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121722368#Comment_121722368

Sheep are a misery if you'r not set up, sheep take very well to wintering and lambing indoors, they also work well with races, footbaths, etc, especially if you give them a fresh paddock when they go out of the yard.

I don't know how you'd spend 50000 on 50 sheep though