35 days notice of eviction, High Court only option now!?

lirjandoo

Hi,

Very long story short:

Mid 22: Moved into shared rental accommodation with friends advertised with good BER

Late 22/Early 23: House was freezing. We found out BER was false and previous tenant was paying almost half what we were. We questioned these things with Landlords and Threshold. We were advised to raise a dispute from threshold but told by landlords if we did, they wouldn't want us as tenants and that if we didn't proceed with dispute, they'd be happy to keep us as tenants for years to come.

Mid 23: At this stage we filed for a dispute. The very same day landlords found out we had filed a dispute, they rang us to give us eviction notice. They were trying to get us to not proceed still and said something along the lines of "you can make this all go away" (the eviction) if we didn't proceed. We told them we'd be proceeding anyway. A day or two later they arrive at the door with eviction notice in writing.

We went straight to adjudication for the dispute. We had provided great evidence in the form of whatsapp messages, communication about the BER, previous rent, our eviction notice etc. One of the landlords has a medical issue and they used this as an excuse of why they wanted the house back, to be closer to work. The medical issue seems to be something can can come in episodes rather than something that affects their day to day life and according to doctors notes, is even improving. Also when it is bad, they can't work anyway, so there's a contradiction there. We know of them having been on multiple holidays during the time of our tenancy so it doesn't appear to affect their lifestyle either. They also have multiple other rental properties in very close proximity. The medical issue is not something that affects mobility The adjudicator saw through all this and was very effectively calling them out during the dispute. It really couldn't have gone any better for us.

We received the ruling from the adjudication. We were awarded repayment of most overpaid rent to the maximum limit RTB cases can be paid of €20,000. The adjudicator also wanted to fine them €2,000 but because the maximum had already been reached, the €20,000 would be all they would need to pay. The eviction notice was also deemed to be invalid. The landlords appealed the decision. Seeing as how bad the dispute went for them we feel they may have done this out of spite to have us continue paying the higher rent for the time until a Tribunal was conducted and a ruling arrived at so they would get this overpaid money for these months and not have to pay this back. We didn't think they had any chance of winning the tribunal either.

Late 23: Evidence was submitted for the tribunal and it transpired that they weren't appealing the lower rent amount, but were still trying to get us evicted. The tribunal took place. We had the rental figures well presented in our evidence as well as everything else, which we assumed the tribunal members would have diligently read over. The tribunal didn't take a long time, but a lot of the time seemed to be on the discussion of the medical grounds for needing the house back. As the discussion had been on the medical issue, when it came to our time to speak, we failed to bring the focus onto what they had said about that if we continued to pay the higher rent, we could stay there for years to come or that we could make the eviction go away if we didn't proceed with the dispute. After the tribunal, we emailed RTB to say we failed to mention what they had said about allowing us stay in the tribunal, but were told no further evidence can be submitted.

We still felt confident and hoped that they would not be deceived with the medical grounds excuse. However we understand that such claims can't easily be disproven.

NOW: We received the ruling from the tribunal earlier this week. The landlords were ordered to pay back all overpaid rent. That it is not a cost or award of damage etc, that it's an overpayment and therefore doesn't fall under the €20,000 limit. So we are to receive the entirety of all overpaid money back and should henceforth pay the legal rent figure (almost half of what we had been paying). However, the eviction notice was deemed valid and as the eviction was served mid 23, we are apparently overholding and we have been given 35 days to vacate the property. It cited in the ruling about them needing the property back based on medical grounds.

Although we are delighted that we get all overpaid money back, we feel the eviction is not justified and they have deceived the tribunal and that the tribunal members may not have read all evidence we had provided. We have the option to appeal this decision and take it to the high court, but none of us have any experience with what that would entail and what costs and risks there could be in doing so.

With the overpaid rent being deemed an overpayment, we feel any outcome from the high court would not affect their obligation to pay this back to us.

Our hope with appealing is that we will not lose our home, at least not yet, and have to try find somewhere together again in the current market. It took 6 months of stress to find our current place.

Unless we are guaranteed the overpaid amount back regardless of the outcome in court, we may not have the money to cover costs for solicitor etc. We are renters with most of our income going to rent.

I'm posting in the hope of getting any advice possible.

What type of solicitor should we look to speak to?

What kind of costs might be involved?

If we lose, would we have to cover our legal costs and theirs?

Can we stay in the property until the high court decision is made?

How long would it take to get a date at the high court?

Are cases like this dealt with by a single judge, or a panel, or a jury?

Is the fact we were told we could stay if we didn't proceed with a dispute strong enough evidence to negate any medical ground excuse, at least for the eviction notice in question in this case given it was so evidently a reactionary eviction?

I've seen posts here before that it can take 2 years to get legal proceedings in place against overholding tenants, this isn't something we want to do, but in the case of us being advised not to risk taking it to the high court, or the costs being prohibitive, based on the current market, we really can't see ourselves finding somewhere else within such a short amount of time.

Sorry, it ended up being not so short, but if anyone has any advice it would be super!

meijin

• the trouble with the Tribunal I guess is that you had to present everything again; not sure they read what the Adjudicator decided
• you should look into "tenant penalization" based on raising the original dispute; see https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/14/enacted/en/html - this should really make the termination by LL invalid, but claiming medical reasons complicates that I suppose
• you have 21 days to appeal to High Court! Don't be late!
• you cannot be evicted until the case is decided by HC (it might take months...)
• you should read previous HC decisions re. RTB (the case is against RTB! not the LL) - you can find some estimated timelines there maybe
• I suggest you look for a new place in the meantime...

can't help with other questions

arctictree

Sounds like such a load of hassle! If you didn't like the property and the rent level, why didn't you just move somewhere else?

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121645295#Comment_121645295

Thanks a lot for the reply that's very helpful. Our thoughts are that they may have just skimmed the adjudicators ruling rather than reading our initial evidence. It's so clearly a reactionary eviction (verbally served to us the day they found out we had filed a dispute) and we feel had the tribunal members seen this evidence the outcome would have been in our favour.

We didn't realise the case would be against the RTB for having arrived at that determination, and not the Landlords for having deceived them (we believe), we're not sure which would have been better for us.

If we can't be evicted until the HC ruling that takes a lot of stress off us. We're not sure there's much point looking for somewhere in the mean time. We are settled here and do not want to leave out of fear and have to deal with the Dublin rental market any sooner than we need to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121645419#Comment_121645419

I'm not sure you're aware how difficult it is to even get a viewing of any decent affordable property in Dublin, even having daft alerts set up and responding to adverts within minutes of being posted, it's not likely you'll even get a response, let alone an opportunity for a viewing, let alone be selected out of the hoards of potential interested tenants who apply. Either way, that's not what this discussion is about and I'd like to keep the focus on relevant information :)

ELM327

Tenants like you are why landlords are exiting the market. You were served a valid notice of eviction and the court has upheld it.

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654517#Comment_121654517

It doesn't appear you've read the post fully or correctly, but if we can please keep the discussion to relevant and helpful information only that would be fantastic.

bucketybuck

What is your end goal here? That makes it worth all of this?

Is it that the landlord can never serve you with eviction notice? Or just to drag it out as long as possible?

To cut through all the words, are you saying that the eviction notice has been judged to be valid, but you think it shouldn't be because of what the landlord said to you in private conversation?

Are you really going to go to the high court on a "He said she said"?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654597#Comment_121654597

I have read the post. Clearly the part about rent amounts was resolved, the separate issue about the validity of the eviction notice was resolved, you're very happy to take the court's judgment when it rules in your favor but want to ignore the part where it upheld the eviction notice as valid?

It might have been your home but it was and is the landlord's property. Once the notice is issued, is valid, and the time has passed, you must leave. the court has already advised you of this. I don't see what the issue is. If you don't comply with the notice eventually you will be forceably evicted - which of course in this country causes expense for the landlord. This is what I mean when I say "tenants like you", as it is demonstrable that you are intent on causing problems.

lirjandoo

The end goal is not to be evicted from our home on extremely short notice when the eviction was clearly reactionary to us having filed a dispute.

This isn't a he said she said situation, the eviction notice was served straight after the LL found out we had filed for a dispute and we have evidence of communication between us and the LL that if we didn't proceed with the dispute, we could stay.

We have no doubt they will get to evict us eventually, but this specific eviction has certainly been done in contravention to the link @meijin responded with.

@ELM327 You're misunderstanding the process, the case has not gone to any court yet. It has only been dealt with by the internal RTB processes. We're not ignoring the eviction notice, we're appealing it as we feel all evidence has not been taken into consideration. When all evidence was clearly taken into consideration in the adjudication, it was ruled in our favour.

kabakuyu

How did you figure out BER was false? did you get a BER done?

Kaisr Sose

@ELM327

Is it not a case that the landlord is the problem / brought about this eviction because they did not abide by RTB rules around setting rent ?

Taking @lirjandoo first post at face value, the landlord is the disengenuous party here..wants to keep the tenant but only if they play by their version of tenancy rights.

@lirjandoo Someone else has advised you on an option so I hope that works out for you. I know its difficult to find somewhere to rent, but I would definitely be looking for a new place.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655009#Comment_121655009

I would guess the previous tenant probably knew the true BER rating and passed it on with the rent information.

A lot of landlords need weeding out from the market.

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655009#Comment_121655009

I'm answering on the basis it may help you or others with a similar query. The BER of a household can be checked if you have access to the MPRN number (will be on an electricity bill) through the BER website. If this is not the case, the BER cert must legally be furnished to tenants of a property on request.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654983#Comment_121654983

What is the evidence that if you didn't proceed then you could stay, in the OP it appears they only said that verbally?

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654005#Comment_121654005

You say you are settled here... You do realise this is not your house!! Another person owns it!

Then you say you don't want to deal with finding something affordable... So this place was affordable since you were happy to rent it in the first place!!

You are a walking contradiction.

You still haven't grasped you were paying for using someone else's house. Don't get too settled! Time for you to go and let other tenants be happy renting this place.

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654597#Comment_121654597

Sadly, don't expect any meaningful response from the "LL is The God" brigade.

They will question every missing comma in your posts, and take every word out of context... just to distract you from the real issue.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121645419#Comment_121645419

Hahah that is a seriously level of ignorance. And it got thanks. Gas.

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656189#Comment_121656189

There is multiple written communication between us and the LL's to indicate this, as well as their own evidence indicating the same. The adjudicator also got confirmation from the LL during the adjudication, that a conversation we referred to where they had given us a verbal eviction notice and subsequently told us that we could avoid the eviction if we didn't proceed, had taken place. There was enough evidence for the adjudicator refer to section 14 as linked to above, in his ruling.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656370#Comment_121656370

So tenants should never feel settled because they don't own a house even when it's indicated the LL's are looking for long term tenants? Yes of course the place was affordable or we wouldn't have moved in, but it took months of constant responding to daft alerts to finally find a place. If you think there's a guarantee of us finding any place to rent in Dublin, you're sorely mistaken. Our personal finances in relation to the affordability of the illegally set rent holds no bearing on the rent having been illegally increased.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656453#Comment_121656453

I have rental properties and I posted anti-LL here. Any decent LL knows and plays the rules. The OP's LL are not tried to game the system for their benefit. In this country the tenant had rights, so they cannot just be evicted on a whim

An outcome at RTB adjudication like this should trigger a multi agency review of the LL, from RTB to Revenue. If the tenants do get evicted (or leave before that) for the owner to use the property (on med grounds it was stated), a robust fit for purpose RTB should be able to prevent a new tenancy being registered.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654983#Comment_121654983

I think you need to figure out how much you are willing to spend on trying to extend the notice period….

It is your responsibility to make your case and ensure that all your evidence is presented. From what you have posted so far it would seem you did a poor job of it up to now. If you want to have a shot in the high court you are going to have to talk to the professionals and that could be very expensive. Even if you don’t and loose that could also be very expensive. So how much is the extension of the eviction notice worth to you? That is something you need to think about, since as you said that is your objective.

antoinolachtnai

This is not legal advice but:

You want to appeal on a point of fact. The appeal to the High Court to which you refer is on a point of law. I don’t see what the point of law is that you would appeal on. Perhaps you could appeal in the two points about evidence, consideration of the adjudication file and then the very weak point about disregarding evidence after the hearing. There might be a point about treatment of medical evidence too, I don’t know.

If you want to appeal on a point of fact I think you will need a different procedure called a judicial review. This is a much trickier procedure.

You could lodge your appeal on a point of law if you have one and that might have the effect of stalling the whole thing pending a hearing.

You would then get your time but you dont really have much of a dispute on the point of law so if it did go to hearing you could lose and have costs go against you.

But equally the landlord might be forced to settle rather than wait.

A lay litigant could try filing the paperwork for the appeal yourself I suppose. If the litigant didn’t have legal advice they would be dependent on the guidance of the clerks in the High Court Office. As another poster says, time limits are absolutely critical.

Again, this is definitely not legal advice. You certainly should ask Threshold what they think.

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656711#Comment_121656711

Unfortunately, I agree. If you can't argue the case before HC on the point of law, it might only work as a delay tactic. Maybe you can have a case, but maybe not. I've no idea what are the costs involved.

If you move out, the LL needs to offer you the place back if they don't use it as intended. Make sure to check afterwards!

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656595#Comment_121656595

Thank you. These are the kind of cautionary and informative posts I was hoping to receive. I haven't posted all evidence here, just a summary of what is on file, but yes, it would be great to get legal advice as to whether this would hold up in court, whether the fact the adjudicator (a lawyer) having spoken to them and arriving at the conclusion they were in contravention of section 14 based on the evidence he heard from them will help our case much etc.

Would you have any idea what kind of costs would be involved?

If we appeal it to go to high court and get an extension, if we find out the costs involved are too high for us, what happens then I wonder?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656711#Comment_121656711

Thanks a lot for this! I'm not fully aware of the terminology used here. Would appealing on a point of law be appealing that the tribunal didn't determine it was in contravention of section 14 (linked by @meijin), when the adjudicator made their ruling based on this contravention? Would we need the case to be reviewed by a solicitor and deemed to be deserving of an appeal, for an appeal to be granted? If we appeal, is there a chance it won't be deemed valid and then we have to move out based on failure to appeal?

I'm not sure what the landlord may be forced to settle, from what I gathered, if we are appealing the ruling by RTB, the landlord is no longer involved and it's US -VS- RTB as opposed to US - VS- LL, so RTB would effectively be on the side of the landlord as this was the determination of the tribunal (although not of the adjudicator before them).

mondeoman72

Sadly this is what happens when the government interfere with a free market. It is not your house. You only have a right to live in it as long as you pay the rent. The legislation interferes with the owners rights to charge a market rent.

You seem to think you have more rights than the landlord. Perhaps that is correct, but he also has the right to put you out if he has the grounds. He is claiming medical need. It is situation like this crap that is causing landlords to leave the market. I think you should start packing, see with threshold and the RTB get you a new place. They could possibly leave you in the lurch, but hey, you are within you possible rights.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656902#Comment_121656902

The landlord most certainly would be involved. They would be a notice party and would have a right to be represented. The outcome would have an effect on their rights.

This is really about strategy and timing, as much as it is about law.

You wouldn’t need a solicitor to certify your appeal in my view. but it would be beneficial to have a solicitor to advise and draft certainly. But realistically, are you going to find one inside the time limit?

Again this is not legal advice.

Sure, you could lose. As you know better than most people, losing is a real possibility no matter how good your cause. But losing or even getting to hearing could take months. Are you not looking for time?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656935#Comment_121656935

This is a load of crap. The government is not an inanimate object, it does what gets it elected and in this country that means a housing policy based on people taking on huge amounts of debt or relying on social services to put roofs over peoples heads. We could adapt other policies similar to those in mainland Europe, but the Irish voter is not willing to accept any solution that does not include them getting to own a house. When it comes to financing the taxpayers are the main source either through mortgages or taxes to provide social housing and as we see that is unsustainable. The types of landlords leaving the market are irrelevant because the are to small and far apart to make any significant difference. We need a strong rental framework and large blocks rental property financed by untapped sources and public subscription and your two bit landlords and free market nonsense are never going to put a dent in the problem as we have seen over and over in the Anglo Sphere world.

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657441#Comment_121657441

Thanks again, yes, we're looking for time for sure.

We're waiting to hear back and looking as to what kind of costs may be involved, and how much longer we could stay in the property in the cases of:

1) Making the initial appeal without a solicitor

2) Making the initial appeal with a solicitor

3) The case going to the high court and us winning

4) The case going to the high court and us losing

5) If after the appeal is submitted, we find out the costs of 3 and even 2 above are too high, can we decide not to proceed any further and will there be costs in us pulling out?

I think our only real viable option is to make an appeal either way, because I don't think there's going to be any way we'll find somewhere else on time so we'd be staying longer than the 35 days anyway.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655344#Comment_121655344

I know how to access BER cert, but I was asking how you determined the LL was lying about BER, did they communicate false BER info verbally or in writing to you?

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659277#Comment_121659277

They advertised the ad on daft with a much higher rating than the actual BER rating of the property and we have evidence of the advertisement with the false BER.

Ezeoul

Not a landlord, or a solicitor, but i think you'd be nuts to throw good money after bad here, by taking this to the High Court.

Cut your losses, take the money you're owed and start looking for a new place to live.

The High Court is very expensive. Any award you got from the RTB would be eaten up very quickly on legal fees, and if you lose and costs are awarded against you, you could end up out of pocket AND out of the house.

lirjandoo

Thanks Ezeoul, that's certainly a concern we have. We would feel a grave injustice has been done should these landlords get away with this eviction. We're waiting to find out associated costs and risks and see what's possible.

We feel an outcome in the high court for a case like this could benefit the tenants of Ireland, because if they get away with this, it would be clear medical grounds are a subject RTB are not willing to scrutinise fully, should other landlords use such methods to evict tenants.

Maybe we'll start a gofundme for the court fees 😁

Cuddlesworth

Yeah, your in get proper legal advise territory. Nothing the RTB does is legally binding so the eviction has to be actioned by a actual court and the money you are now owed has to be actioned by a actual court. Which considering the sum involved, you really need to pursue.

reggie3434

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661244#Comment_121661244

You already own a 400k house which you are a landlord of, you certainly don't need a gofund me.

Seems the LL acted appallingly, but it also appears that your case in the HC would be against the RTB ruling. You may win, but if you lose, you and your housemates could be on the hook for the other sides costs, as well as your own. No doubt your legal council would lay out their fees and possibly want some type of assurance over payment. Would you be in a position to pay all those costs if your are not successful? It would certainly give me pause for thought, you could will a battle (€20k) but lose the war (tens, or even over a hundred thousand).

Judging by what you posted, there has been an antagonistic relationship between you and the LL from the start, for your own sanity, take the €20k award and move on.

Claw Hammer

The landlord will have to try and enforce the determination order in the District Court. You can argue there about unfairness. You should get a solicitor who deals with that type of work. At the very least you can string out the process.

I am a landlord but encased in a below market rent. I have developed progressive multiple sclerosis which means I need funds for future assisted living in a suitable place. My pension is small, I really need to sell. Fortunately my good tenants have managed to buy their own place, moving out shortly. Just sometimes landlords really do need their property back just to survive.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121645419#Comment_121645419

Desperation I would imagine, it’s widespread as people struggle to find a place to live which is within their means. There is likely nowhere else for the OP to go so while they might not “like” the rent, they probably felt they had to pay it.

That is not an excuse for the LL to overcharge the OP and their housemates to the tune of 20k, whatever one’s views on the effectiveness or otherwise or those regulations.

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689464#Comment_121689464

Creating hypothetical scenarios to gauge performance of an investment from a property, does not mean I own the property.

Thanks to the other posters above. We have an appointment with a solicitor soon.

We'd find it very demoralising if the legal system won't allow us to contest what we believe to be a ruling made without having considered all evidence.

There's an obvious need for a review of how these matters are dealt with as written about here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30847220.html

That's interesting about having to enforce the order through the district court. Does that mean, if we stay put, we'd have a chance to argue our case in the district court in front of a judge?

lirjandoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121690827#Comment_121690827

Sorry to hear about your health. There's some very interesting studies on MS and possible improvement with lifestyle changes here: https://nutritionfacts.org/blog/how-to-treat-multiple-sclerosis-with-diet/

We would not be creating a fuss if the medical grounds were genuine. The last rental we were in, they needed to evict us to sell the property to help with medical costs and we were out on time despite the disastrous rental market and having to move to a worse area, into a smaller, colder and more expensive house.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691087#Comment_121691087

Small time landlords aren’t honestly the best for tenants to depend on because so much hinges on their personal circumstances.

The_Conductor

Guys- just a heads up- we are specifically forbidden from offering what could be construed as legal advice.

I think the OP has been offered as good information as possible, given the framework under which this forum operates.

Accordingly- the thread is closed.