Almost 50% of drivers believe accompanied driver rule should be scrapped

Lewis_Benson

Typical Irish motorist attitude.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/almost-50-of-drivers-believe-accompanied-river-rue-should-be-scrapped-1543619.html

So give free licenses to those who dont want to wait for a test?

Yep ,that will improve driving habits alright.

hoodie6029

Can’t believe they even print this tripe. Given Breaking News was part of the Cork Examiner I’d wager (tin foil hat time) that this was written by a journo sympathetic to Michael Healy Rae. He was banging on about people leaving school with a driving licence last week.

A few years ago, in very poor taste, he launched a blistering attack on the legislation to seize cars off unaccompanied learners. This law was brought in as a result of the unaccompanied learner that blew through a stop sign, hit another car. That car rolled into a water filled ditch. The doors of the car couldn’t be opened and the mother and daughter drowned in their car 400 metres from their front door a few days before Christmas.

I was so disgusted by this I sent a letter (physical) to MHR to tell him. Never got a response.

No Government TD or Minister will ever row back on road safety measures. This is just click bait that plays well with people who think ‘sure everything was grand years ago, why did things have to change?’

rob316

I'd argue you shouldn't be allowed on the road as learner unless your under the supervision of a dual controlled driving instructor. What is the real benefit of having an accompanied driver? Your still in control of the car and accidents happen in split second driver decisions.

There should be an extensive driver learning program, then a test and then you can can go on the road with a full licence.

Government would never roll back on road safety measures, they have only begun to clamp down on unaccompanied drivers.

hoodie6029

Healy Rae and the rest rattle cages about this stuff to get votes. What they are in fact doing is railing against law and order and the authority of the legal system. Then they go out on the other hand crying about the victims of crime, gangs and lawlessness.

How can you expect people to obey any law and you (TD’s) are giving them a nod and wink over driving licences and publicly calling for laws to be reversed?

The chancers of the world take that as ‘if I can get away with this, what else can I get away with?’

It’s grossly irresponsible of politicians.

And for Breaking News, usually quite a responsible site, to spin the survey as ‘nearly a majority support this’ is not just click bait but irresponsible stuff. 51% of a very small group surveyed still think learners should be accompanied, the status quo. But there is no clicks in that headline….

Kerry25x

I'm a learner driver and I hate seeing learner drivers on the road unaccompanied and the general entitled attitude that some people have. You shouldn't be driving alone until you've proven you're competent.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281623#Comment_121281623

I learnt to drive and did my test in a country where this was the rule, and indeed, the test had to be taken in a car with dual controls (I wonder whether that was brought in because of people trying to take their test when they really weren't ready for it). I'm not sure whether it took me longer to get to the standard required because I didn't have the opportunity to practice outside of paid for lessons.

Also, looking at the ages in the survey, it's not really a surprise that quite a few of those who are learning (the 18-24s) and those who might have to be supervising (the 45-54 cohort probably covers quite a few parents of that 18-24 cohort) want the accompanied driver rule to go away.

Kimbot

Letting learners drive a tonne wight weapon with no experience, that piece should not have been printed at all. Open the floodgates and see what happens, more crashes and more road deaths.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281623#Comment_121281623

I thought it was obvious, its to stop teenagers driving by themselves being reckless or showing off in front of their friends in the car, while still giving them some freedom to practice driving with a responsible adult. Teenagers are more responsible with an experienced fully licensed driver beside them. (Usually a parent or guardian).

galwaytt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281594#Comment_121281594

Hard cases make bad law.

We can't keep making laws for the majority based on the exceptions. It's like 'speeding'. We reduce speed limits from 50 to 30, when the real issue was people doing 60/70/80 in the first place. All that happens is these infractors keep going the way they were, and everyone else get punished for their behaviour. And the net outcome of that is the law fallis into disrepute over it and even MORE people break the new, lower limits. Result ? The original speeders still 'speed' but now you've a bunch of new 'offenders' falling foul of a too-low limit which drives reported figures up et voila - RSA have some more fuel for the 'speeding' mantra.

Same with drink driving limits. Zero is not practicable and the law recognises that, so we have a figure which is manageable. Halving that tomorrow, when the most egregious breakers of that law are multiples of the current allowance over, is fruitless. You just need to more fully enforce a practical, reasonable limit.

Those accompanying learners are not there to 'take over' the car in the event of an event unfolding in front of them. Tbh, if that was the case there would be even more accidents, not fewer. The idea of them is as mentor, adviser or, if the situation warrants, to get the learner to pull over and the accompanier gets into the driving seat and takes over (think: parking issues, or night driving, or poor weather driving, or traffic or whatever where the learner is not yet fully skilled and needs assistance). It

And then of course you have the 'Irish Factor': putting limitations on driving licence/permit periods when the system (the Test) cannot actually accomodate them makes the whole thing a joke, and like the 'speeding' example above, just brings the system into disrepute (again).

My daughter has been waiting a year to get her IBT and can't due to demand. My son was within a couple of day of his 2-year IBT Cert expiring and only lobbying and keeping on to RSA got him his test before potentially losing the thousands he spent to get there.

The system is broken, period.

spiggotpaddy

Scrap it, don't scrap it, what's the difference. Enforcement is selective. Just listen to the barrage of bangers every night.

Arnout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281968#Comment_121281968

Same rule in the country where I learned to drive, which for me was the Netherlands. My instructor also took me to Amsterdam "you have to have driven there". Whereas a colleague of mine has a son who failed his test here, after just having driven up and down the road between Clane and Straffan with his parents.

So it's all about where you drive, not with whom you drive. And I know L-drivers here are not allowed on the motorway (why remains a mystery to me) but at least take them out on a dual carriageway.

It would also clean up nicely if:

A. all driver's licenses would be revoked of people who never sat a theory- and driving test

B. if A is not an option, at least have L-drivers only accompagnied by people who have had a theory- and driving test themselves. Less chance of the young people being taught that the earth is flat, so it's safer to stay in the middle (lane of the M50).

antodeco

Is there any reason we can do "sim" driving lessons too? The technology is readily available and that one can be all about awareness and reactions. The physical lessons are about car control etc. The Sim than is the next level where it's controlled scenarios (motorway driving/snow driving etc). I know it would be like real, but at the moment there is zero education on that as it is

Arnout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHXqIOa4IkA comes to mind 😄

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282071#Comment_121282071

Thanks for trotting out all the old arguments for why we shouldn’t bother to change our laws or driver training and testing systems. They’re all self serving sh one t e

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281966#Comment_121281966

How do you know the other drivers you see are Learner drivers driving on their own?

Most L drivers don't own their own car, and are learning in a parents/spouses' car so most of the time, the driver of that car will be a fully licensed driver, even if there are L plates on display

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282203#Comment_121282203

Watch Jeremy Clarkson try the Cork Screw at Laguna Seca to see why SIMs don't work. The hardest part of driving is learning how the vehicle handles different conditions and SIMs don't teach you that.

Kerry25x

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282326#Comment_121282326

I'm talking about people I know who are currently taking driving lessons, awaiting their test and driving around unaccompanied, not random people I see on the roads.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282311#Comment_121282311

Well, the data shows road fatalities in Ireland are at close to historically low levels

Given that some percentage of those road fatalities are intentional, ie, suicides, and another percentage of those are not related to driver training or excessively lenient legislation and would likely occur regardless of what the laws are (eg, criminal activity, and deliberate breaches of the law) , then the question has to be asked, Is there much we can realistically via legislation, training or enforcement do to improve the situation?

Arnout

Fewer people killed doesn't necessarily mean fewer accidents. Cars are a lot safer than they used to be. Also, accidents are one thing. Traffic flow would highly benefit from people using the correct lane, not wandering into a different lane on the roundabout so the car next to them doesn't have to slam on the brakes, not maintaining a low speed holding up everyone behind them, paying attention at traffic lights so the cars behind them also make it through the green light, et cetera.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282434#Comment_121282434

What is an acceptable level of deaths? If deaths are preventable, shouldn’t we try everything that we can to prevent them?

This is the RSA’s plan to 2030 anyway

https://www.rsa.ie/about/safety-strategy-2021-2030

galwaytt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282311#Comment_121282311

thanks for not actually parsing what I said. Meanwhile you're advocating the 'the beatings will continue until morale improves' approach.

That doesn't, isn't & won't work, period.

Varik

A lot of people fine with new restrictions as along as they only effect those coming after and not themselves.

Of all the clowns you meet on the road not all of them are unaccompanied learners, or banned, or never had a license to begin with. Plenty bad driver out there could do with a refresher but the backlash when it'll effect anyone other than the young/new drivers would be unreal.

I've gotten car and bike under the current system, and being able to go out on bike alone after the more extensive training that they require for that made it so much easier to do the test.

Just crazy idea.

The problems of the whole driving test system should be addressed so people are not forced into resorting to such illegal activity

People should have their provisional removed if they haven't got their license in a reasonable time.

thegame983

Get them to sort out the waiting list for a test. That might help.

As of right now I'm scheduled to be 'invited' for a test at the end of November. I've been waiting a year.

Did 12 EDT lessons a year ago. Cost 600 quid. Pointless.

EDIT: Just checked the RSA portal out of interest. my estimated test time has been pushed back to mid December.

That will be nearly 13 months. You just have to laugh at this point.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283018#Comment_121283018

If you’re going to post material just to deflect the argument and thread then I am not going fall for that and waste my time dissecting it and tell you where your errors are.

The world is constantly changing. Our approach to road safety has to evolve and change with it.

It is easy to call out what you think is wrong. How about some suggestions to fix it?

I see & no drivers with full licenses that shouldn’t be left anywhere near a car.

There just as if not more dangerous than any learner’s on the road.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283194#Comment_121283194

Agree with this point. Sometimes on threads like this you could be mistaken into thinking that people who did their theory test, prescribed driving lessons and passed their test could not possibly do any wrong.

The Muppet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282480#Comment_121282480

Deaths are not preventable though , life is risky , people die prematurely in all sorts of ways, swimming, cycling ,falling down stairs, its part of life .

The accompanied rule is unworkable , people need to get around the country for work etc we dont have a public transport system fit for that purpose , what options has a young apprentice but take to the road. Provisional/young drivers are not the problem on the roads, Bad drivers are .

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319554/almost-50-of-drivers-believe-accompanied-driver-rule-should-be-scrapped

Not even a single comment on how the survey was conducted nor the statistical sampling error. As a consequence, this is not even worth the paper it’s not written on, ie entirely worthless.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283934#Comment_121283934

Completely disagree; that might be a reasoning for incorporating driving skills into the secondary curriculum so as to ensure parity of access/opportunity regardless of income. It’s not a reason to allow unaccompanied unqualified drivers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283934#Comment_121283934

Solve the waiting list - don't put everyone else life at risk because the administration is crap.

selectamatic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282082#Comment_121282082

Learner drivers aren't driving loud cars at all in general. It's the fastest way to attract attention from the guards.

Plenty of N drivers yes but learners no.

Learners are in by in large driving their parents car or a nearly new small car.

spiggotpaddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284489#Comment_121284489

Halloween bangers. Boom 💥

selectamatic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284577#Comment_121284577

Ah I get ya. Tbf that relatively low level public order enforcement has always and it appears will always be non existent.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282326#Comment_121282326

You are supposed to remove the L Plates when the learner is not driving, yes I know nobody bothers, but that is what is supposed to happen.

GSBellew

Whatever about complaining about waiting lists, there is an issue with allowing people to keep on renewing a learners permit an unlimited number of times, many without ever sitting a test at all.

If someone can not manage to pass a test in 10, 20 or even 30 years I am not sure if they deserve to be let drive, let alone drive unaccompanied.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/10/02/revealed-tens-of-thousands-of-people-have-been-driving-for-years-without-ever-taking-test/

galwaytt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283181#Comment_121283181

so basically you've got nothing and are just noise. I get it.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284704#Comment_121284704

It doesn't actually mean that they have been driving though.

I know someone who got their Provisional years ago, before the mandatory EDT. They keep renewing it so they don't need to do the EDT (I know.....), but they never actually drive a car. Anecdote of course, but 1% of people who hold licenses are on their third provisional, and many don't actually drive on the road.

Similar to the figures published about uninsured vehicles. For a time, 2 cars outside my family home were taxed but uninsured, but that says much more about out nonsense tax system which forces people to over-tax their cars. The theory was that if a car was taxed, it was actively being used on the road, but that just isn't the case.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284704#Comment_121284704

To be honest, I can’t see these drivers being much of a problem to society. They are all experienced drivers, as you say, some have up to 30 years driving experience. Its not like they are failing their driving test every time, I believe they just cancel the booking or don’t show up.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285403#Comment_121285403

They cancel because they are fairly sure they'd fail.

Otherwise they wouldn't need to.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285647#Comment_121285647

Or don't even own a car, have no intention of driving one in the near future, but have retained the learners permit, "just in case" and to avoid redoing the EDT lessons?

csirl

There's a growing problem with drivers driving with no license. A lot of those who previously drove for years on constantly renewed provisional licenses stopped doing so when the learner permit was introduced. They just drive with no license. Never enforced as Gardai simply dont check licenses anymore.

Isthisthingon?

As mentioned by a previous poster, I don't understand the logic of a learner driver somehow being safer on the road with a licensed driver sitting beside them. I do take the point that a licensed driver can advise a driver to slow down or pay attention but the only possible thing they could do to stop a collision for argument sake would be to pull up the handbrake maybe. They cant wrestle the steering wheel off the driver or grab the keys.

Also what happens if the licensed driver has even worse habits than the learner?

' Should I indicate here? '

'Pfft indicators , Good one'

The dual control car or preferably driving taught as a subject in school in an enclosed area until proficiency is earned would be the better option.

And for context , I'm of a vintage that failed his first test, but was able to get a second learners permit and legally drive on my own on the learners permit for 2 years I think in which case I had to take another test. I think if you got a third learner you couldn't drive on your own. Driving test wait times were 15 months. Either way drove the length and breath of the country with no L plates up. Did a fair bit of motorway driving so it wasn't worth the hassle. Kept under the radar when driving and was never queried on it by a guard.

I passed by the way.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282203#Comment_121282203

This would seem to be the way forward. People should be required to do a sim test before being allowed apply for the real one and those with licences should do a sim test every 10 years.

In a sim you could simulate something like a child running out, the driver in front braking suddenly etc and you could do night driving and snow as you say

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286250#Comment_121286250

Next thing some people will be looking for prospective parents to take a sim test each time prior ro doing the dance for real😂😂

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285174#Comment_121285174

Maybe don’t be logging on to your daddy’s account if you can’t handle an adult conversation.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285403#Comment_121285403

But if they are booking tests and not using them it is increasing the backlog, causing complaints about delays and leading to threads like this.

You say that you can't see them being much of a problem, but they may have never sat a test, so you have no way of knowing if they are good bad or indifferent and if they can not manage to pass a test in 30 years they should not be entertained a renewal of a learners permit.

Rubberchikken

The driving test is too basic and too easy to pass especially for younger people/lads who will know.and do all the right things on the day.

The bad driving is also passed down with crappy full licenced drivers helping their kid learn. Does anyone actually think that these people will pass on good driving behaviour.

These are the same people who don't abide by speed limits, sail through roundabouts and generally treat the road as though it's they're own to control.

Arrogant pr|cks. Imo.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287456#Comment_121287456

Who are the arrogant pr1cks again? Not sure if you're referring to those young lads who are well capable of passing the test or those who have proven in the past that they can pass the test and drive competently or... sorry Ive lost my train of thought

xtradel

I think it should be scrapped only because my Daughter is a learner and when I accompany her I'm fuckin petrified!

Isthisthingon?

I wonder how many of us would fail the test if we sat it again.

Loads id imagine on technicalities and a plethora of minors.