Spain - Women World Cup Champions - 1 week later. (How not to manage a crises)

Ki ki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043754#Comment_121043754

I don't have "proof", I have an opinion.

But there was Hermoso's radio interview afterwards, saying the kiss was nothing and that she had a great relationship with the president. She laughed it off.

There was Rubiales apology where he admitted the kiss was wrong but without any bad intent. He said it was with a player with whom he had a great relationship. He laughed it off.

And now there's this. What looks like a whole team, with a great relationship, laughing and joking with El Presi, about el beso.

No wonder he woke the next morning believing it was not a serious matter...

https://as.com/futbol/femenino/el-video-de-las-jugadoras-en-el-autobus-despues-del-beso-de-rubiales-a-jenni-v/

Mr Disco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045094#Comment_121045094

Truth finally starting to emerge about this daft lass

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042434#Comment_121042434

Pretty sure too if she had kised him there would be nothing about it either.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045135#Comment_121045135

We will see what else will emerge here, but at the moment you wrote the post (and correct me if I’m wrong?) you didn’t have any knowledge of the two of them being any kind of “friends”. That’s what got my attention. It was for some reason easier for you to believe that it was all an innocent mistake by a man in authority who behaves like he did liberally using his hands and lips on the players, rather than the alternative, the like of which you described in subsequent posts, that is an inappropriate abuse of his position. I find that photo of him picking up a player ad hoc very iffy as well; you simply do not behave like that these days as a man to a woman subordinate to yourself. This is the stuff of the past when women were voiceless and had to as a matter of course endure an occasional good-humoured slap on the backside by the boss, and that’s just on a lower end of the scale of what went on. I’m sure many of them were “ok” with it as well, had a great camaraderie with the boss 🙄

I stand by my posts, Rubiales’s behaviour is at the very least inappropriate for his situation, and that is easily determined just going by what can be seen in the pictures etc. The type of relationship between Hermoso and Rubiales can be an interesting or a messy thing to detangle ultimately, but really, taking his behaviour as a whole and not just re: Hermoso, you just don’t behave like that these days without consequences. Or shouldn’t be able to.

Ki ki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045239#Comment_121045239

Before I wrote my post, I had seen quotes from Hermoso's interview when she said the kiss was nothing, and they had a good relationship. I had also heard Rubiales' apology, when he said he was wrong to do what he did and that they had a good relationship.

So their own audios and admittance were known of by me, at the moment I wrote the post. I am correcting you. You are partially wrong.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045296#Comment_121045296

Ok thanks for that. We already know you see nothing wrong or questionable with his behaviour as upper management, as long as they have a “good relationship”. (Which is much more important for her to nurture as a subordinate, than for him.) So it is very much the principle on which his behaviour rests that you and I fundamentally disagree on.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045135#Comment_121045135

I don't think there was any audio recording of a Hermoso interview. Do you have a link to one?

The quotes in which Hermoso appears to say they have a great relationship were allegedly written by Spanish Football Federation officials:

https://www.euronews.com/2023/08/23/spanish-football-federation-accused-of-faking-jenni-hermosos-statement-on-unacceptable-kis

"The released text said: "(The kiss) was a totally spontaneous mutual gesture due to the immense joy of winning a World Cup. The president and I have a great relationship, his behaviour towards all of us has been outstanding and it was a natural gesture of affection and gratitude".

"We can't think any more about a gesture of friendship and gratitude, we won a World Cup and we're not going to deviate from what's important," she purportedly added.

Those words were written by the Spanish Federation's communications department without consulting the player herself, Relevo claims."

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045094#Comment_121045094

As you are well aware Hawley this has very little to do with a kiss.

So it doesn't matter one bit what video or audio or actual facts emerge.

Would be interesting to know which member of the setup leaked the video though.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045089#Comment_121045089

Thank Christ she is gone, we were starting to look like a real professional outfit that could have achieved something.

But feelings were being hurt so you can't have that.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044206#Comment_121044206

Your very first 2 words on the thread were "Sexual Assault"

A claim you have repeated half a dozen times.

That is some serious bad faith posting.

Ki ki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045317#Comment_121045317

You are welcome.

But you are wrong again. "We already know you see nothing wrong or questionable"?

I have said he acted unprofessionally. I have said he acted inappropriately.

But, I do not think he carried out an act of sexual assault or used his role to abuse or domineer over the players.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045425#Comment_121045425

Oh ok. So we do agree on something. You see, I find it interesting that you can acknowledge that he acted inappropriately but do not make a connection to the power dynamics inherent in his position, and how that might be a direct conduit and facilitate his entitlement to such behaviour. Which is called abuse of a position.

Sudden Valley

If they are going after the character of Hermoso now, that will not save Rubiales job as his actions this week have doomed him, but it could be used in his defence of sexual assault.

I'm surprised the Spansih FA don't have a code of conduct like most company's have that they could have said he was being judged against.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045515#Comment_121045515

Yeah, that is surprising. Hopefully they will have one from now on?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045369#Comment_121045369

Waffle. Follow the law. Innocent until proven guilty.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045800#Comment_121045800

👍️

Ki ki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045325#Comment_121045325

Speaking for herself *before any influence from RFEF, or other sources

*My opinion, not fact, but based on the chronology of releases and reports

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cope.es/programas/tiempo-de-juego/amp/noticias/jenni-hermoso-tiempo-juego-nivel-deportivo-puedo-lograr-mas-que-esto-20230820_2862032

Ki ki

And for what it's worth, I have said already that I cannot possibly claim to know how Jennifer Hermoso felt after the kiss. And I have said it is understandable that she might feel differently after the comedown of the initial high.

But several people asked how the kiss might be seen from a woman's perspective. I gave mine.

rob316

Its really disappointing that this crap has over shadowed a sporting achievement for these players. I very much feel the "victim" didn't have too much of a problem with it but then the mob made her change her tune and she is taking the publicity with it. Absolute nonsense the whole thing, referring to it as sexual assault is a slap in the face to true sexual assault victims aswell. Its a nothing burger that has been turned into a huge drama by an OTT public opinion.

IlovemybrickFC

Hello everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster!! Be nice!!!

If it was reversed, and say Newcastle United won the Champions League and Amanda Stavely kissed Anthony Gordon in a moment of pure unbridled joy - would there be the same kerfuffle about consent ? I wonder. I seem to remember a great bit of commentary in the 80s about the University Boat Race, "oh that's nice to see - the wife of the Cambridge president is kissing the cox of the Oxford team" (think of it spoken!!)

The Spanish FA guy reacted instinctively, the player didn't seem bothered and if an apology was needed it could have been done between them.

But his mother is on a hunger strike and there is talk of the Spanish men's teams being kicked out of Europe ? Has it not gone too far ? I think so.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045155#Comment_121045155

Ah yes. The bastion of “truth” that is the Daily Mail….

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045895#Comment_121045895

Definitely agree with you about the event overshadowing their achievement but to be honest it may be the only reason a lot of people know Spain won the women's world cup this year. I don't think it is a nothingburger though with the antics of the Spanish FA chief threatening all and sundry. This is how you dont manage a PR crisis. A bit like the Tubridy case, where people referred to it as a nothing burger but it was handled so badly it became bigger.

I dont think it was a sexual assaults but if you did it more than once in a professional setting it would be akin to sexual harassment.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045933#Comment_121045933

They should have agreed a statement between them, not releasing a statement only agreed to by him. He should have initiated some sort of internal professional conduct review like any other professional organization would do. You mention that Spanish clubs may be kicked out of Europe but that is only Rubiales threatening to do that but It wont happen I suspect as it seems the whole FA has turned against him.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045129#Comment_121045129

Because you appear to be defending the Spanish manager doing that act in a moment of passion, whilst on the other hand giving an example whereby you would take a manager to court for doing exactly the same thing.

The simple solution, in both your examples, would be for managers not to kiss people on the lips. Not that hard to do.

Even in moments of celebration, and especially not on the world stage, not at a global tournament indirectly representing female equal rights progress, then doubling down on it after.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045296#Comment_121045296

So if a woman who is raped is asked by her friends immediately afterwards if she was ok and she says that she is, and laughs it off, then she cannot report the rape because her immediate reaction, when in shock, is taken as gospel?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046989#Comment_121046989

It's the 5 second rule, no take backsies

Ki ki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046989#Comment_121046989

That is not what I have said.

I have said (a few times now, this will be my last), that I do not know how Hermoso felt during, or after the kiss.

I have said, that if I was in her situation, I THINK I could forgive (him).

And that is because I don't think Rubiales meant the kiss in anything other than a friendly way (yes, to the extreme).

I have never, and would never, discourage anyone from reporting a rape (or sexual assualt).

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047473#Comment_121047473

You have said that because she was seen with a photo and joking and laughing immediately afterwards that she must have been ok with the kiss. Isn't that just the exact same defence that most accused rapists use?

Here are your words:

 there was Hermoso's radio interview afterwards, saying the kiss was nothing and that she had a great relationship with the president. She laughed it off.

I am astonished that any woman would use something said or done by another woman in the immediate aftermath of an incident of sexual harrassment as a defence of the perpetrator. Many many women, in the serious shock of what has happened to them, have laughed off incidents in the immediate aftermath, and that has come back on them unfairly.

My opinion is very clear. The Spanish President acted in a completely inappropriate way at the ceremony, Hermoso's responses have nothing to say on it one way or the other and with a suitable humble apology (not the half-hearted one he gave) he could have got away with it. However, what clearly demands his resignation are his actions since the incident, threatening the woman with legal action, double-downing on the consent issue, and generally trying to bully his way out of it. Those are resigning matters.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047409#Comment_121047409

I remain astonished and deeply saddened by the attempts to defend him. It seems that society is learning nothing from these incidents.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047581#Comment_121047581

People who perhaps feel they would be in the same legal trouble if they were honest about it. There hasn't been a whole lot of culture denouncing sex pests, either. Thank the harvey Weinsteins of the world. Poor Kif was the only one who had a mind about being raped to death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46YYsLZL560

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045946#Comment_121045946

It's nothing to with the Daily Mail.

The video was given to a Spanish Publication. El Español.

https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/futbol/20230829/rubiales-fifa-video-hermoso-companeras-bromean-beso/790421337_0.html

Full video is there.

You'd struggle to find many other online publications that are carrying the story, strange that really given how popular the story is.

Tell me how

I said in the opening post that I was most interested in the topic because of what happened after the incident than the incident itself.

I have said that I personally don't feel that he was guilty of 'sexual assault' in the context of what we understand that term to mean, but it was beholden of him to be completely contrite and understanding of how his actions were problematic. But the actions of the federation in targeting Hermoso is very problematic and indicates how difficult incidents like this are for women in general.

Someone yesterday suggested that if a male team won and a female administrator or owner behaved as Rubiales did that it wouldn't be a problem. But that is ignoring the difference in power dynamics that generally exist between men and women. Women have been saying for years how everything from being told to smile or cat call is something that they don't enjoy. A lot of people push back on that (there's been some intense discussions on the topic on here) saying its just verbal and they're being excessive or dramatic. But too many women have seen things escalate from a comment, to a catcall, to a proposition, to a touch, to assault to rape and even murder and I can understand that many women are uneasy with even the lower level behavior because they don't know to where it could escalate either immediately, or later.

Sexual assault and rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute and the statistics for convictions are not in women's favor and quite often, upon the announcement of a not guilty conviction, or the withdrawing of charges, we see calls for the woman to be prosecuted for having made a false accusation. It's no wonder in such an environment that women are hesitant to voice up on what has been done to them. I mean, there's not shortage of people who would be happy if Greenwood was accepted back in to play for Utd despite what everyone knows he did.

Also, I've seen some posters glibly comment on female teams being like mobs in getting managers fired and again, that's a selective or blinkered position. There's no shortage in male sport of managers losing their jobs because 'they've lost the dressing room' so to ignore that but to select women's team are some sort of woke mob because they are flagging the impact on their collective mental health is being very selective.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047693#Comment_121047693

A user said something along the lines of “good to see the truth is getting out there”, and then linked to a Daily Mail article.

Yet you have the audacity to say it’s nothing to do with the Daily Mail?

Really? It’s literally the source I was given.

fwiw, I think 6 months probation would be a fair outcome of this case for all involved.

You can’t go around kissing people without their consent, and you should definitely not threaten to sue them into silence. What he did afterwards was arguably worse.

If had acted sorry, apologised and moved on, we wouldn’t be talking about this. Before you get your knickers in a twist, he may have apologised, but he did a u-turn the following day so the apology is moot.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047693#Comment_121047693

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

...

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047780#Comment_121047780

Yet you have the audacity to say it’s nothing to do with the Daily Mail?

It isn't.

You were given the original source and video but you are angry at me for some reason?

You're welcome.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047813#Comment_121047813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045094#Comment_121045094

Because the quote above is what I was referring to: A Daily Mail Article. Which another poster then said:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045155#Comment_121045155

You are just arguing in bad faith now. The Daily Mail is a rag and “Truth” is not in its remit.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047835#Comment_121047835

Yeah the Daily Mail is complete racist shít heap.

But I have now linked you to the article with the full unedited video.

Have you any comment on it, because it is quite pertinent?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047702#Comment_121047702

Excellent synopsis that I agree with.

It all shows that this is a cultural issue, people not understanding the power relationships, thinking that they can then bully a woman into silence.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047702#Comment_121047702

I mean, there's not shortage of people who would be happy if Greenwood was accepted back in to play for Utd despite what everyone knows he did.

I have no interest in going off topic with this one, people think they know what happened in that case. They so don't.

United do, that's that why he was been reintegrated into the squad.

Wasn't to be though, so hopefully his family are happy wherever they end up.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047849#Comment_121047849

I get she doesnt seem that much bothered by what happened at this stage, but she thought about and then decided she though it unprofessional. That is the risk Rubiales took by kissing someone without their permission.

I think the lesson is dont kiss someone without their permission.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047951#Comment_121047951

Yip, that is what she said alright, she went a little bit further though than just "unprofessional"

Again though it is very little to do Rubiales.

Vilda is the target.

The statement calls for the leaderS in Spanish football to be sacked.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047991#Comment_121047991

So Rubiales kissed her, made at statement on her behalf, lied in a speech about her , threatened to sue her, but this is little to do with him? Is this seriously your theory?

Vilda could have chosen not ot support Rubiales , then he would be safe.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047902#Comment_121047902

I do recognize that you said that you don't want to go off topic, but given the context of this discussion is largely around the topic of what constitutes acceptable behaviour, it is worth posting the dialog of Greenwood and his GF.

"I don't want to have sex", to which the man replies: "I don't give a **** what you want ... I'm going to **** you, you twat ... I don't care if you want to have sex with me ... I asked you politely, and you wouldn't do it, so what else do you want me to do?

To suggest, that there is anything else in this scenario other than completely unacceptable behavior by someone is just wrong, and dangerous.

If a recording exists of a man saying that to a woman, and for some people to say that he should not be held accountable, what chance can a woman expect her reporting of behavior that made her feel uncomfortable, unsafe, violated to be taken seriously?

I would challenge any man who absolves Greenwood of his actions to tell one woman in his life who he cares for what his view is, and see what way she reacts.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048043#Comment_121048043

There have been some hinting that the full recording gives a slightly different picture. I can only assume that there is some suggestion of consensual non-consent.

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a41175223/consensual-non-consent/

Whether that is true or not, leaving it out there as a possibility seems to be what United are at in order to avoid trouble.

Doesn't apply in this case at all though.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048043#Comment_121048043

I am not absolving anyone of anything or defending anyone.

I mean, there's not shortage of people who would be happy if Greenwood was accepted back in to play for Utd despite what everyone knows he did.

I responded to your assertion that "everyone knows what he did."

Trust me 99.9% of people have no idea what happened in that case nor do they really care to know.

It's as strange as it is sad.

Maybe someday the story will be told or a journalist will be brave enough to write a piece on the actual facts of it and by brave I don't mean defending or absolving anyone just the actual story. It won't happen because of reporting restrictions, but that may change.

The reality is United concluded that he should be brought back into the club, United are as woke as fúck and Greenwood is a talent but not as good as people are talking about plus he hasn't played in nearly 2 years so it was hardly worth the hassle. They released an intention to the media.

Then the backlash started. #Boycott Adidas, then it wasn't worth the hassle.

But, Like I said nothing to do with this thread.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048004#Comment_121048004

Well no. All the players had absolutely no problem with the kiss evidenced by the video above of them ripping the píss out of Rubiales hours after it happened.

They had no problem until they had.

Again you are forgetting that Vilda left 12 big players, big personalities, big stars at home, club team mates and friends of the players who went and then did the unthinkable, he managed them to a World Cup win without them.

Again this is very little to do with a kiss. But if you want to believe that I won't change your mind.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048724#Comment_121048724

What “reporting restrictions”?? We all know what Greenwood is

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048794#Comment_121048794

Makes sense for him to go from fawning over Rubiales to Greenwood.

Unexpected consistency from the poster concerned. We all know his view on women and consent.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048724#Comment_121048724

I've got to come back to this.

Trust me 99.9% of people have no idea what happened in that case nor do they really care to know.

It's as strange as it is sad.

Are you really telling us that you know a reality about the Greenwood situation that means we should discount the recording of the horrific things that he said and the images that accompanied the release of that recording?

That's an incredibly revealing position to hold and in the context of this discussion, of course you are never going to accept Rubiales behavior was unacceptable if the bar for what constitutes unacceptable behavior is so high.

In terms of your view that Utd are 'woke as fcuk'. What do you mean by that? Do you think that any company who holds someone associated with them to account is only doing it because they are 'woke' or being manipulated in to acting that way? Do you not think that people who work in companies are not capable of having moral standards themselves? Or do you think that any moral standard is noting more than being 'woke'?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049679#Comment_121049679

You are proving my point for me. You are using hyper emotive language in a case you clearly know very little about.

So it impossible to have a rational discussion based on reality and facts with someone who clearly doesn't want to.

 Do you think that any company who holds someone associated with them to account is only doing it because they are 'woke' or being manipulated in to acting that way? Do you not think that people who work in companies are not capable of having moral standards themselves? Or do you think that any moral standard is noting more than being 'woke'?

Again this is so frustrating, if you are going to have such fervent views on a topic at least research it or actually read what people you are actively engaging with tell you.

Here is the actual official club statement.

Richard Arnold's open letter to Manchester United fans

Richard Arnold is the CEO of Manchester United:

Dear fans,

Now that we have concluded and announced the outcome of the club's investigation into Mason Greenwood, I want to be direct and transparent with our fans about the process and the reasons for our decision.

This was an internal disciplinary investigation between employer and employee which would ordinarily take place outside of the public eye. Given the public nature of the allegations and Mason's profile, I acknowledge that this was not an ordinary situation, but I felt it important that we still follow due process and, so far as possible, avoid media comment until I had made a definitive decision.

When audio footage and imagery was posted online in January 2022, my feelings were of shock and concern for the alleged victim. Her welfare, wishes and perspective have been central to the club's approach ever since, as have the club's standards and values. While we immediately concluded that Mason should be suspended pending investigation, we were also conscious of our duty of care towards him and the importance of making a decision based on full information. Until February this year, this was a matter for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. It was only when charges were dropped that the club discussed the allegations with Mason and others involved in the case.

Our investigation sought to collate as much evidence as possible to establish facts and context. This was not a quick or straightforward process for a variety of reasons. It was essential for us to respect the rights and wishes of the alleged victim. Also, we have limited powers of investigation which meant we were reliant on third party cooperation. Timings have also been influenced by my desire to minimise the impact of the investigation on our men's and women's teams, as well as our Lionesses. I acknowledge that this gave more time for speculation, but the alternative would have been to compromise due process or create untimely disruption.

While we were unable to access certain evidence for reasons we respect, the evidence we did collate led us to conclude that Mason did not commit the acts he was charged with. I am restricted as to what I can say for legal reasons, including the alleged victim's ongoing right to anonymity, but I am able to share the following with you which should give you some insight into the complexity of this case.

• The alleged victim requested the police to drop their investigation in April 2022.

• We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording, which was a short excerpt from a much longer recording, and for the images posted online.

• The alleged victim's family participated in the process and were given the opportunity to review and correct our factual findings.

Last week the media reported that we had decided to reintegrate Mason and that elements of a plan to do so had been leaked to them. Reintegration was one of the outcomes we considered and planned for. For context, over the course of the past six months several outcomes have been contemplated and planned for, and my view has evolved as our process progressed. While the ultimate decision rested with me, I was taking various factors and views into account right up until the point of finalising my decision.

While I am satisfied that Mason did not commit the acts he was charged with, Mason's accepted that he has made mistakes which he takes responsibility for. I am also mindful of the challenge that Mason would face rebuilding his career and raising a baby together with his partner in the harsh spotlight of Manchester United. Further, this case has provoked strong opinions, and it is my responsibility to minimise any distraction to the unity we are seeking within the club.

Although we have decided that Mason will seek to rebuild his career away from Manchester United, that does not signal the end of this matter. The club will continue to offer its support both to the alleged victim and Mason to help them rebuild and move forward positively with their lives.

Thank you for your continued support.

----------------------------------------------

So basically by their own investigation he didn't do what he was accused of doing but that lady who does maths on the telly wants his head on pike so it must be done.