Spain - Women World Cup Champions - 1 week later. (How not to manage a crises)

Sudden Valley

I think the only truth is that 99.9% of people don't know what happened in the Greenwood case. It is hard to comment on it as we don't know what evidence the police gathered to conclude they couldn't prosecute him. The Manu statement doesn't reveal anything at all only makes claims they couldn't back up with any evidence (probably due to the sensitive nature of the recordings). I presume the only defence would be the Andrew Tate defence, that they were role-playing in that tape that was leaked.

In other news I see Rubiales mother is in hospital. This is a sad state of affairs. He should resign, for his family's sake, and so we can close this thread!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049939#Comment_121049939

It is hard to comment on it as we don't know what evidence the police gathered to conclude they couldn't prosecute him

The police don't prosecute, they hand their findings to the CPS.

The CPS decided to prosecute anyway even in light of allegations been withdrawn and new evidence presented to them in April 2022.

They continued this stance until February this year until their own internal review process told them to drop the case. Who knows maybe the new evidence wasn't past on.

You would have to wonder if it was a young white footballer would he have been made stew for nearly a year.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-57982273

The Manu statement doesn't reveal anything at all only makes claims they couldn't back up with any evidence

Well no the statement is clear.

the evidence we did collate led us to conclude that Mason did not commit the acts he was charged with

We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording, which was a short excerpt from a much longer recording, and for the images posted online.

Are people incapable of reading between the lines here?

Also it is worth nothing Greenwood is still an employee of United he has not been fired.

In other news I see Rubiales mother is in hospital. This is a sad state of affairs. He should resign, for his family's sake, and so we can close this thread!

It was the dribbling mob camped outside her house that largely drove her to protest.

Augme

"We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording"

lol, obviously they automatically believed those alternative explanations too. 😂 what a coincidence. 😂 yet, despite this mountain of irrefutable evidence neither party has publicly released it. Amazing that, isn't it.

Also, let's just be clear on this one. The investigation by the organisation who really wanted to keep Mason Greenwood as their player concluded on the basis of the alternative explanations they were told that he did not commit the crimes he was charged with. Well, that's me convinced.... 🙄😂

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050151#Comment_121050151

Why did you leave out the rest of it? 😕

We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording, which was a short excerpt from a much longer recording,

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050198#Comment_121050198

Because it has no relevance. They didn't conclude he didn't commit the act based on the much longer audio recordings.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050219#Comment_121050219

What are you talking about? They were given the whole audio, as were the Police and eventually the CPS.

They concluded based on the evidence presented to them including cooperation from the alleged victims family he did not commit the acts he was originally charged with, which were attempted rape, controlling and coercive behaviour and assault occasioning actual bodily harm.

Charges which were later dropped.

the evidence we did collate led us to conclude that Mason did not commit the acts he was charged with

despite this mountain of irrefutable evidence neither party has publicly released it

Again if knew anything about the case you would know why.

The investigation by the organisation who really wanted to keep Mason Greenwood as their player concluded on the basis of the alternative explanations they were told that he did not commit the crimes he was charged with

Well you see that is nonsensical. Their own investigative review process determined he not commit the acts he was originally charged with but he has to go anyway.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050291#Comment_121050291

What are you talking about? I know they were given the whole audio. As I said, the organisation that really wanted to keep Mason Greenwood as a player concluded that the evidence they were presented with concluded that he didn't commit those acts.

"We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording, which was a short excerpt from a much longer recording, and for the images posted online."

The statement simply states they have longer audio recordings, they don't refer to the content of the longer audio recordings. The longer audio recording could just be the exact same as the shorter one. So in my mind, it has no relevance. If the longer audio recordings exonorated Greenwood I have no doubt they would have stated that. Or if the longer audio recordings were the basis for them finding Greenwood did not commit the acts they would have stated that too, or at least they should have.

Sudden Valley

I think without further explanation of what actually happened there was not much desire among manu supporters for Greenwood to return. That is just judging by the posts on the manu forum here.

It just seems that was another pr disaster in the football world, their handling of his possible reintegration to the squad was handled really badly.

gmisk

Interesting read.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/30/moving-the-goalposts-vero-boquete-luis-rubiales?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050407#Comment_121050407

If they "really wanted to keep him as a player" and their own investigation cleared him of what he was accused of.

Why isn't he back in training?

The statement simply states they have longer audio recordings, they don't refer to the content of the longer audio recordings 

The longer audio recording could just be the exact same as the shorter one

That is just nonsense. If the longer audio was a continuation of the edited snippet United would not be declaring he did not do what he was charged with.

Anyway. It is also way off topic.

I'll leave it on this note, what actually happened in reality and the evidence which proves it hasn't been released is to protect someone, that someone is not Greenwood.

I think what Arnold said to finish statement should probably be respected.

Although we have decided that Mason will seek to rebuild his career away from Manchester United, that does not signal the end of this matter. The club will continue to offer its support both to the alleged victim and Mason to help them rebuild and move forward positively with their lives.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050540#Comment_121050540

Eh, because as you said yourself "that lady who does maths on the telly wants his head on pike so it must be done".

There's a reason United didn't state the longer audio recording was what led them to conclude Greenwoood didn't commit the crime, there is a reason United didn't state the nature and content of the longer audio recording was significantly different to the shorter one. There's a reason United simply stated as fact that they had a longer audio recording, while offering no additional detail to the content of that extra audio.

"We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording"

That is what the United statement states and it is clear that the alternative explanation to the audio recording is the main reason that they concluded that Greenwood did not do the crimes. Again, they never stated it was the longer audio recording that lead to their conclusion.

This is huge off topic as you stated, so my last post on it. But it is important to clear up the facts of the situation and the facts around United statement.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050633#Comment_121050633

That is what the United statement states and it is clear that the alternative explanation to the audio recording is the main reason that they concluded that Greenwood did not do the crimes

The main reason they concluded he did not do what he was originally charged with is because they had the cooperation of people involved with it including evidential materials that have not been released to the public. The same evidential materials were provided (eventually) to the CPS who dropped all charges on the back of them.

Your assertion is that United wanted to keep him at all costs so their investigation was tainted is illogical.

The reality is the easiest thing and probably best outcome for the club was to find evidence against Greenwood that would have nullified his contract therefore allowing them to fire him and not have to agree on settlement.

Worse case scenario in some respects was they conclude he did not do what he was accused of, which is what they actually concluded.

IF the true story is ever revealed, which it could be, circumstances can always change. United are not going to look great.

It's why the letters and statements are crafted as they are.

I won't be engaging anymore on it because it's over the moon off topic.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050709#Comment_121050709

In the case the alleged victim went back to the alleged abuser. It is of course not unheard of that a victim will go back to the perpetrator. In the absence of a co-operating victim there was no chance of conviction.

United's statements on the other hand were purely financial. Their options once they decided not the keep the player were either to state he was leaving the club only with no other comments or to state as they did.

If they had gone with the first option it could be inferred that they had judged Greenwood to have had a case to answer. This would have made it impossible for him to get a club, as opposed to very difficult. He could conceivably have gone after them for the remainder of his contract and for compensation. As it is they agreed to a form or words and deal that sees Greenwood paid per his contract until he finds a new club. There is the prospect that they may receive a fee.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050776#Comment_121050776

United's statements on the other hand were purely financial.

No they weren't, there findings leave them on the hook for the remainder of his contract.

There is the prospect that they may receive a fee.

They are not looking to generate a fee and if one was to be it will be given to women's charities.

osarusan

Sorry, but Man United's investigation and their conclusions from that means sweet f**k all.

Regardless of what evidence they had access to, who are they, as a football club and a business, to be announcing that a person did or did not commit any particular act.

It's nonsense.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050861#Comment_121050861

They are his employer.

We can't just get rid of employment protections and law because the lady who does maths on the telly wants to garner twitter likes.

Or do you think we should replace procedure with Twitter Polls?

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050882#Comment_121050882

Shoukd we get rid of laws and replace them with internal investigations by private companies??

See, I can ask questions that are just as idiotic as yours.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050927#Comment_121050927

What law was broken?

Mr Disco

Yawn. Has this blown over yet and Wokies returned to their beds to piddle some more?

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050978#Comment_121050978

I didn't say any law has been broken.

But it's not Man United places to make any statement on what Greenwood did or didn't do. They are not the body who decides that.

"He didn't do it because Man United said so" is a patently stupid position to take.

Patrick2010

Apologies, I thought I was in the Spanish kissing thread

IlovemybrickFC

Sadly a lot of people do want just that.

I read somewhere that an organisation representing rape victims wanted to do away with jury trials in rape cases and effectively take the accuser’s word as true automatically.

That would be a sad day for justice if it ever happened.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046989#Comment_121046989

Jesus christ!!

What a comparison

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051009#Comment_121051009

Why are you talking about the law for so? The body who decides if laws were broken already decided that.

It then moved on to employment law which an employer is legally obliged to follow, which they did.

Now in normal circumstance that remains behind closed doors. But as explained.

This was an internal disciplinary investigation between employer and employee which would ordinarily take place outside of the public eye. Given the public nature of the allegations and Mason's profile, I acknowledge that this was not an ordinary situation, but I felt it important that we still follow due process and, so far as possible, avoid media comment until I had made a definitive decision.

So again why would United not be allowed make determinations of fact on whether an employee does or does not keep their job?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050927#Comment_121050927

Why did the CPS drop the case if the short recording is so cut and dried?

Why the the alleged victim and her family agree to the outcome?

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051133#Comment_121051133

What does that have to do with my only argument about this, which is that placing any faith in the findings of a Man United investigation is nonsense.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051033#Comment_121051033

Indeed.

Spanish FA considers reasons to sack World Cup-winning manager Jorge Vilda

The Spanish Football Federation is considering whether it has grounds to sack Spain Women’s World Cup-winning head coach Jorge Vilda, according to reports.

Timing is everything here, Hermoso has 9 days left to signal her intention of joining the prosecution on the sexual assault charge.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051156#Comment_121051156

So by that logic if they found that he actually committed what he was accused of and they fired him on that back of that you would be calling for him to be reinstated immediately because the findings would be nonsense, right?

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051169#Comment_121051169

I'm saying that them giving themselves the authority to make any kind of finding on whether Greenwood did what he was accused of is nonsense.

Whatever findings they reach carry no weight or credibility whatsoever.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051191#Comment_121051191

But why is it nonsense? The are compelled by law to follow employment law.

So are you saying no investigation should have taken place by the club and he should have been reinstated into the squad immediately once the CPS decided all charges were to be dropped?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043822#Comment_121043822

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049904#Comment_121049904

You are proving my point for me. You are using hyper emotive language in a case you clearly know very little about.

So it impossible to have a rational discussion based on reality and facts with someone who clearly doesn't want to.

broken irony meter.

“So you took what was a thoughtful and honest post and boiled it down to basically you 'daft naïve lass'.

That is militant feminism in a nutshell.”

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043799#Comment_121043799

“Epic cowardice”

etc

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051398#Comment_121051398

Lacks context. Dishonest and low grade posting.

👎️

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051417#Comment_121051417

The context is hyperlinked to; what are you trying to pull

people in glass houses.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051428#Comment_121051428

Original posts not included, no context.

Again dishonest.

Please stop.

Sudden Valley

The findings of the Greenwood case were fraught with having a bad reaction from the squad and manu supporters as all that is still publicly available is that leaked audio and the photo of his partner looking beat up. Manu have some further evidence as did the prosecution services but we don't get to see that so there is nothing in the public sphere that is powerful enough to repair Greenwood's tarnished image.

I wonder why Vilda didn't quit already when all his staff quit and every available player said they would refuse to play under Rubiales. I would presume the staff will be rehired when Rubiales is eventually sacked.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051157#Comment_121051157

Hermoso joining the prosecution is a strawman piece. The issue isn't whether the unwanted kiss amounted to sexual assault or not. The bigger issues are what happened afterwards, the attempts to coerce a joint statement, the declaration that she consented when she said she did not, the threats to sue and more, the attempts to portray her immediate reactions as implied consent etc. etc. Those things are symptomatic of a misogynist culture pervading the Spanish FA. Firing the President and the coach should only be the start of what happens.

Going back to the kiss, at the very least it was sexual harrassment, which is an employment matter (hence the FIFA intervention) not necessarily a criminal one. A decision not to proceed with a criminal case is not an absolution for Rubiales. In fact, if Hermoso declines to join the prosecution because of the mental strain imposed on her by the way that he has responded, that would be another black mark against him.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051445#Comment_121051445

Please stop, slow down and pay attention

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051456#Comment_121051456

The issue isn't whether the unwanted kiss amounted to sexual assault or not.

I imagine it is an issue for Rubiales to be fair.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051476#Comment_121051476

The book club the next chapter?

You really do need to stop now.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051451#Comment_121051451

Why would Vilda quit?

That would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051505#Comment_121051505

I don’t need to stop, if you want context click the link to the quotes? You said these things so you already know the context, it’s from recently in this thread.

I would however suggest you stop throwing stones from a glass house at people regarding your own “hyper emotive language”

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051477#Comment_121051477

It is probably an issue for him insofar as him wanting to stay out of jail, but insofar as him wanting to stay in his job, he has an awful lot of bigger issues.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051544#Comment_121051544

He hasn't a hope in staying in his job whatever facts emerge in the coming days, weeks, months.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051525#Comment_121051525

When his whole staff quit from under him he had to make a decision. Continue to stay on and thus support Rubiales or quit in solidarity with his staff. By not quitting and then publicly going against Rubiales he tried to play both sides but that doesn't seem to be working out well for him.

On the question of stupidity, do you think Rubiales has acted monumentally stupid this week?

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051204#Comment_121051204

Can you show me where in employment law that it is an employer job to investigate and make a criminal determination?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051599#Comment_121051599

When his whole staff quit from under him he had to make a decision. Continue to stay on and thus support Rubiales or quit in solidarity with his staff. By not quitting and then publicly going against Rubiales he tried to play both sides but that doesn't seem to be working out well for him.

Hang on, I thought peoples perception of events were allowed change or evolve on reflection?

I can show you a video of a whole bus full of people who did just that.

Vilda doesn't get that benefit? Interesting.

No actual player has quit, they are on strike. Maybe if Vilda says he will go on strike too?

On the question of stupidity, do you think Rubiales has acted monumentally stupid this week?

Once the Spanish Government Ministers started calling for criminal proceedings the whole even firmly entered clown town and has not returned.

Interestingly UEFA have been the only measured authority through out all this, asking for due process.

I wonder what they know.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051604#Comment_121051604

Most employment contracts provide for disciplinary action in situations whereby there has been gross misconduct. Situations of gross misconduct include bringing the reputation of the organisation into serious disrepute. Rubiales and Greenwood can both certainly be accused of that and employers have a duty and responsibility to investigate the facts and make a determination.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051604#Comment_121051604

Huh?

What employee made a criminal determination?

Criminal liability are made by the courts (and online mobs), the decision to prosecute in England is made by the Crown Prosecution Service.

The CPS in this case dropped all charges. Therefore no criminal liability exists.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051736#Comment_121051736

I know that. But the question they need to investigate is whether the employer committed gross misconduct or brought the organisation into serious disrepute. An employer isn't responsible, nor needs to, make a determination of a criminal nature. Employees who have been found not guilty can still be sacked for gross misconduct.

The fact is, it is not a employers job to make a criminal determination on a case. United decided to do so in this case that involved a very talented football player who they really wanted to keep.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051747#Comment_121051747

Sorry, that should read employer. United made the determination that Greenwood didn't commit that acts, which is ludicrous, given they are not at all impartial.