The government is hoovering up too much housing - the private working taxpayer is hurting

Fred Cryton

Biggest private landlord sells 194 Dublin homes to housing charity – The Irish Times

Here we have a case where company is selling 194 homes to a "Housing charity" (really means the government as these "charities" are government funded) at €371k each.

You can imagine the company would have instead sold them to individual hard working taxpayers for €350k to €450k each if the government wasn't hoovering up as many homes as it could get. Perfect price range for a working couple in middle Ireland for their first home - for example a teacher married to a nurse.

The media narrateive focusing on welfare recipients, refugees, "homeless" has led to a ridiculously skewed allocation of housing capital in favour of the govenrment, and is actively hurting private buyers. We need to defund the NGO's and make it illegal for a council to lease or buy from a private developer. The government should build its own housing from its own budget on greenfield sites outside the M50.

Sunny Disposition

The treatment of working people by the State is far worse than it’s treatment of people who don’t work.

It’s going too far now, people who work hard and pay tax can’t afford to even rent a house. And people who by choice don’t work or pay income tax get free houses.

Within ten years I predict a huge move to the right side in Irish politics. The State has put too much emphasis on social welfare recipients and public sector workers.

Private sector workers are going to find someone to advance their interests.

Furze99

The government apparently has legal obligations to house those who throw themselves at the mercy of the state. So this is a logical response from the state.

The government has no legal obligations to ordinary citizens who are trying to pay their own way in society.

It's not going to end well.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058307844/the-government-is-hoovering-up-too-much-housing-the-private-working-taxpayer-is-hurting

Here is the thing Fred, private individuals could go build their own houses too and stop pushing up the cost of social housing by competing with the government and impacting every single taxpayer in the country...

Then again Fred, you could start dealing with reality and recognise that a housing policy the depends on individuals taking on huge amounts of debt or relying on social services to provide housing is an incredibly dump idea that has never worked and never will. And once you get to understand that not everyone is going to get to own their own house, we can start to work on solving the housing crisis but not until then.

So the more pain you have the sooner we'll get around to solving the housing crisis, but you are not going to like the solutions.

Sunny Disposition

Until not very long ago the Co Council in Clare (and I’d imagine other counties) were not allowed to buy houses, it was being put on local authorities to build their way out of trouble.

Obviously that policy has been abandoned, and it will inevitably make things harder for working people again.

enricoh

Posted on another thread there was one single house to rent in Balbriggan about a month ago. 2750 a month for a 3 bed. Government will rent it n charge the tenants a pittance, which they will pay if they feel like it.

Rental market totally broken due to government interference, house prices inflated by them snapping up everything going nowadays.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934667#Comment_120934667

I’ve predicted the same… you’ll probably end up with the likes of ..

Ireland First, INP ( irish national party ) etc….if they don’t exist already….

im surprised that there already hasn’t been any serious discussion revolving around our EU membership…

also I’m surprised that there is no major appetite to reform the EU via referenda regarding immigration and securing of the borders around the EU, securing the financial wellbeing, safety and futures of EU citizens.

the state of the world and what’s probably coming is against a backdrop totally different to the one where the EU was founded and laws drawn up, accepted and implemented….. the laws and policies and indeed leadership of the EU is completely at odds and out of date for and with what’s occurring on the planet right now….

Planning laws are there for a reason.

Successive governments promised the electorate more housing, not everyone, the electorate l

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935513#Comment_120935513

The xenophobia argument doesn't hold water, I'm afraid. The Brits left and immigration to the UK is at an all time high.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingdecember2022#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20long%2Dterm%20immigration,(from%20895%2C000%20to%20942%2C000).

Irexit won't fix anything. It'll just torpedo the economy for no benefit.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935513#Comment_120935513

Those parties are nutjobs and loons though, a real right wing party we have not had since the PDs is whats needed. no extremism, socially liberal, but fiscally right wing. We need that.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935522#Comment_120935522

who is advocating Xenophobia. Multiple countries don’t have any asylum or protection programs at all. Are they Xenophobic ?

there are measures in place for individuals to seek refuge on a case-by-case basis in almost every country however. But those regulations are designed and decided by said countries and what the state of play is there at any given time will influence who is accepted, what levels of help afforded, etc…..

Working people are being hammered, this again an example housing prices, rents will explode.

Jinglejangle69

House Da homeless is all we heard for years.

Well here is your answer.

Better off living in a hotel for a few months crying poverty, you will get your forever home.

Try to do it the honest way? Good luck with that.

Strumms

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/05/11/house-prices-rise-89-despite-fall-in-number-of-sales/

and our citizens get this, as a thanks.

Funny how the government investigate investment funds buying estates to rent out yet they do the same themselves.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058307844/the-government-is-hoovering-up-too-much-housing-the-private-working-taxpayer-is-hurting

The push for the next election is to hand out as many free houses as possible. That's what SF have been promising and the fan base are running after them. So the government will do the same.

They had on RTE news the other day about lack of houses in Cavan, talking to a mate who lives in Cavan and he said one estate is been build in Cavan town which you can buy houses in. The rest of the estates are all been bought up by "charities" for social housing. He said it's a joke because young couples can't buy anymore. It's better for them to quit their jobs, sit on the dole, move into a hotel for a few months and they will be handed a free house.

HerrKapitan

You will own nothing and you will be happy

- Klaus Schwab, WEF

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120936417#Comment_120936417

Nope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ll_own_nothing_and_be_happy

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef-idUSKBN2AP2T0

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935083#Comment_120935083

Hold the f**k up Jim, when private individuals do actually go build their own houses, we are then labelled the architects of "McMansion Rural Monstrosities" from the governmental cheerleaders on this forum, just like yourself up in here.

So which one do you actually want?

HerrKapitan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120936440#Comment_120936440

Oh a baaaah check. That sorts it.

Those fact checks have been seen to be invested opinion pieces long ago. They really dont work anymore.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120936537#Comment_120936537

Can you prove that it's wrong then?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120936537#Comment_120936537

You made a statement and someone has disputed that statement.

The onus is now on you, as the person who made the original statement, to prove that Klaus Schwab said what you claimed he said.

Take your time.

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935534#Comment_120935534

Pretty much. Any party that is fiscally conservative, anti-woke and anti climate hysteria (not anti-climate science) would do very well, there is a massive open goal for that in Irish politics.

Has anyone indviduial ever quite their job gone on the dole became homeless, lived in homeless accommodation just to be 'better' off? The reason their is no non looney right wing party here is because the vast majority are not interested. Has . this occure to anyone : if councils built social housing they need the builders, land, and resorces just the same as a developer forcing the council to build the social housing won't free up more housing for those who want to buy.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937952#Comment_120937952

Forcing councills to build would mean for a given amount of government funds, potentially twice as much social housing could be built. You clearly haven't researched this.

https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-ireland-cost-of-state-private-building-2888760-Jul2016/

There’s no developer profit margin. The local authority effectively acts as the developer. In the example above – that’s €37,980

There are no land fees, because the local authority already owns the land. That’s €57,500

There is effectively no VAT. While local authorities would pay VAT, that’s money going from the State, back to the State. That’s €39,310

There are effectively no planning levies. Again, this is tantamount to the local authority “charging itself”. That’s €11,750

The cost of financing would be cut by around 50%, because of the lower borrowing rates afforded to the State. That’s €10,001

There are no sales and marketing costs, because the local authority retains ownership of the units. The absence of a need for sales and marketing is particularly pronounced in the context of a high demand for social housing. That’s €8,200.

This amounts to €164,741 saved in the SCSI example – leaving a house price of €165,752 as opposed to €330,493 – 50% cheaper.

Stopping the state from hoovering up pre-built houses should be a legal restriction. It is mad financially and socially. There is an issue in terms of an apparent insufficient construction capacity, but that itself is a problem created by the government in the form of the 2007 financial 'crash'. Construction of new houses almost literally stopped, with the value of existing housing falling 50%, It became more expensive to build than a house was worth. Droves of tradesmen had to emigrate to find employment, which they did in places not managed by Cowan and his ilk, like New Zealand, where Christchurch conveniently needed re-building. Canada probably hoovered up lots as trade skills have long been sought and they have an accelerated easy immigration path for such people.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120936478#Comment_120936478

That's if you can get planning

What if the council had to buy the land they won't get it cheaper than a developer. Would you be happy that the council would do social housing quickly, get good value, and be EFFICIENT. The children's hospital? There is no separate set of construction workers to which the councils and local authorities have access if they are building.

It's a false dichotomy to pit social housing against everyone else.

If you were to follow this argument to its logical conclusion When a local authority builds an estate of A-rated homes why should they go for social housing surely they should be forced to sell them to those who can get a mortgage as they were built with taxpayer money.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937927#Comment_120937927

I'm not too sure. What is really needed is a party that focuses exclusively on being economic right-wing and stays out of the social policy culture war. Otherwise they'll just be another Renua, who I considered voting for in 2016 until I found out about their anti-abortion history.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939852#Comment_120939852

You 'found out' their anti-abortion stance? That was their entire raison d'etre.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934667#Comment_120934667

The country is crying out for a right wing party. Personally i can't stand right wing politics but we do need some sort of balance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940669#Comment_120940669

Balance to the 2 centre right parties which have been in government for 100 years???

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940500#Comment_120940500

I am not originally Irish and back then knew literally nothing about the different parties.

Emblematic

While it may seem like the State is buying up loads of houses one has also to remember that the housing list is still very long and can take years for a decent working family (and those unfortunate enough to be unwaged) who are priced out of the private market to get basic council accommodation to which they are entitled.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940669#Comment_120940669

A right wing government would hardly supply much needed social housing, why would we be crying out for a party that would make things worse?

Jack Daw

The government is getting involved in the housing sector in completely the wrong way.

What they should be doing is setting up a national house building company and building tens of thousands of houses which can then only be sold to owner occupier first time buyers.The excess supply of housing will result in prices flattening out and make it easier for people to buy. They'll still have to get a mortgage but it will mean that buying a house would be more affordable and it means that people who make and effort and just simply have their own home will have more of opportunity to do this .

Housing needs to be considered as infrastructure and that it is necessary for society to function and not purely a for profit venture, we accept that the roads, schools , hospital etc don't exist for for profit reasons and Housing needs to be in the same category as those.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934667#Comment_120934667

Whilst I do agree with part of what you are saying & that change is needed sooner rather than later to a lot of government policys, Do you have any idea how little many public sector workers are actually paid?

Excluding the higher up positions which vastly skew the average, the normal run of the mill public sector workers, the ones doing the clerical work, the ones issuing your passport, calculating your tax, processing social welfare applications, calculating pension entitlements, all the fun day to day things that need to happen to run a country, those people are paid less than someone scanning your shopping in a supermarket. Granted there is the job security element and a very good pension if they serve long enough, but there is a much bigger pay disparity than people realise.

I'm private sector before the obvious replies flood in, but from where I am working I know we are paying entry level un-skilled school leavers 20% more than an entry level public sector worker would get.

I'd love to migrate to the Public Sector myself, but I simply could not afford the paycut doing so would entail, that is despite my professional qualifications.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941008#Comment_120941008

All this will do is push private market higher, and more people people priced out of that on to the list.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941008#Comment_120941008

Unfortunately it’s supply vs demand and with the population exploding……being irish in Ireland is and will entitle you to less and less in time. You’ll probably have one of these ‘let everyone in’ advocates tell you that no Irish people should have any priority to housing and that new arrivals and whoever are in greater need. In fact EU law will prohibit Irish people being prioritised as it will be discriminatory. That I think might be the case already ?

the problem we have is that there is no expressed right to housing for Irish citizens in Irish law or our constitution. The Irish constitution protects the right to have and to own private property ( for now ), this protection does not apparently include a right to housing..

Demand is way outstripping supply.

GSBellew

What I will say in relation to the original topic, that of social housing and or housing charities competing with private buyers, yes this is a problem.

Other poster have hinted at the issue without saying it, right to basic accommodation, and that is what it should be, basic.

I'm sorry, but there has to be a reason for people to want to better themselves, to want more for their family & that does not exist when there is no motivation to do so because working all your lives does not mean you can earn a better standard of life for you or your family. Yeah I know that we do not need to create Ghetto's with slums, but we do need to make the social houses a lower lesser dwelling than someone who is paying € 1,000 to € 3,000 plus a month to pay for, you want 4, 5 bedrooms? pay for it.

Why? Well why shouldn't the person who is paying for it get that bit more? Why shouldn't there be a route to earning a better place for yourself, for your children, is that not the way that all previous generations have worked? Our parents wanted to give us more than they had growing up, we want to give ours more than we had.

This lesson seems to be lost and I can see why, when I was younger social houses consisted of the atypical cast concrete 2 to 3 bed terrace or semi detached depending on the area, kitchen & sitting room downstairs, few bedrooms & a bathroom upstairs, shelter, somewhere to sleep, grand if that's all you aspired to, those who wanted a bit more dug deep and moved on, now its a case of identical for all, which is fantastic at removing any stigma that might be levied towards those in social housing, but whilst doing so it also removes the betterment drive whilst simultaneously demotivating the next would be generation of homeowners.

We are very quickly heading towards an extremely socialist state form of housing supply, which is completely unsustainable.

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941408#Comment_120941408

So, social housing for private purchase, for profit for the owner effectively.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941542#Comment_120941542

100% agree.

With councils buying up houses in new estates we now have the mad situation that council tenants are often living in better accomodation than someone paying a high mortgage. There is no incentive for council tenants to better themselves in order to eventually not be dependent on the government to house them.

I agree that social housing should be basic and every council house should be of the same standard fitout. It should be functional and low spec. Tenants should not be allowed alter the house in anyway to their own taste - this may seem harsh but necessary.

Council houses should never ever be sold in any circumstances - once a council house it should always be a council house to ensure their stock never goes down.

Social housing should never be an attractive option or a way of life. It should always be seen as a temporary option not a house for life. There perhaps should be incentives, guidance and mentoring offered to give a pathway to social tenants to progress to leaving social housing after say 10 years which again would ensure that house is free again for another family etc.

We also need to look at the cost of building houses. Some Building regs and specs etc are driving up the costs of housing and often add nothing to the house but a higher price. At planning stage the max selling price a developer can charge should be set as a condition. Developers and construction firms should not be making the huge profits they are making. There should be basic homes available at an affordable cost to buy.

There should of course be social housing for life for those that really need it - people with certain illnesses, disabilities etc but for well able bodied people social housing should be for a limited time.

Backstreet Moyes

Do the people who say we need to build more not know the crisis in the building sector.

My friend is working for a property developer and he is the youngest on site in his late twenties.

Even if the government decided to build all these houses they don't have the bodies to match demand.

We are investing in young tradesmen who are heading off to Australia because they have nowhere to live.

Australia really must love how we train up our young kids who then use those skills over there.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941811#Comment_120941811

The building sector especially housing never recovered from the crash. Regardless it's the only way to get housing. But it's has to be a sustainable career.

Driving the economy into boom and bust where jobs in construction are not stable forcing people to leave and come back and businesses to open and close, makes it not viable or attractive for many people.

Reality is the govt aren't really trying to fix it.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941811#Comment_120941811

It really is a crazy situation. Every second fella on site in Drogheda is a nordie. With crap welfare up there there is no option but work. It's laughable politicians saying we'll build 60k houses etc.

A mate working on a local site hates doing the council n charity houses in it. Normal couples buy the poverty spec houses , council n charities all the bells and whistles. Half of it is so they can't injure themselves and sue.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941864#Comment_120941864

Complete rubbish.

Flinty997

A lot of northern companies kept in business doing govt contracts both sides of the border.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941811#Comment_120941811

My friends husband just got laid off from a building company because they don't have any work for him untill November, and this is a big company.

Plenty of people would work for the government building houses if they had a chance. And why wouldn't we have the nordies building houses? They're building everything else in Dublin

Flinty997

I noticed a few of the sites I see on a regular basis seem to running with less people than you'd expect on a large site. Either they can't get staff or they are stretching out the work.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941045#Comment_120941045

Exactly. The PDs ended state provided social housing in the first place. They brought in the whole concept of rent allowance and sending social housing candidates out into the private rental sector.

The Right wing PDs privatisation, deregulation and laissez faire policies caused the crash in 2008 that has devastated the housing sector in Ireland that still has not recovered 15 years later

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120941954#Comment_120941954

I think every govt in the the last 25-30 had had a hand in it. Common across the western world in fairness. You have to look at some where like Austria to find somewhere doing anything differently.

Akrasia

The 1990s-2000s were the era of neolibealism. Selling off the state silverware to reduce taxation, all leading up to the massive bubble markets in tech in the 1990s and everything else in the mid 2000s and the global crash in 2008.

Ireland became very wealthy on paper with a small subsection of high earners doing very well, but we still have the public infrastructure and services of a mid to lower tier European country while running a 10 billion euro tax surplus, while ordinary people struggle with the highest prices in Europe and crazy costs for essentials like rent and transport