The next passenger train arriving in Navan will be in 13 years

Ronald Binge Redux

Good article with the above title in today's Irish Times. Makes a refreshing reposte to all the cranks (and a consultancy firm) who loudly claimed that the M3 and Bus Eireann was plenty sufficient to meet Navan's transport needs.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304416/the-next-passenger-train-arriving-in-navan-will-be-in-13-years

Won't happen

blanch152

DART +, MetroLink, Luas to Finglas, MetroLink South, Luas to Lucan, Luas to Ringsend, Luas to Blanchardstown and Tyrellstown, off the top of my head are far more important rail projects than any extension to Navan.

Edit: Oh, and DART Underground, I am sure there are more.

AngryLips

The absolute lack of urgency or commitment to timelines on the part of TII, NTA, APB and DoT is the real root of the problem here. There's just this organisational indifference to targets and getting things done.

SeanW

I remember back in the day there were absolute assurances that there would be passenger trains to Navan by 2015. Derek Wheeler of what was then Platform 11 was discussing it on the radio and promised to walk the entire route playing the banjo if it actually happened. Needless to say, the banjo passed 2015 safely in its case.

road_high

Not a hope in hell of this happening in 13 years or prob ever. There’ll be more studies and “feasibility” reports. The usual rubbish that goes on with any major infrastructure. Then they’ll probably end up recommending more buses on the M3 instead. There’s just no political will to build infrastructure in this country- the last time I can remember was the motorway push in the 2000s. Since then, crumbs at best

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832507#Comment_120832507

And Tuam to Ennis excepted, all those motorways run out of Dublin. There isn't even one from Cork to Limerick, when a spur from Mitchelstown would do the trick.

Strumms

Look at the metro. The biggest requirement and priority as regards public transport infrastructure in Ireland… yet …….

Construction start date : unknown

completion date : unknown

service commencement : unknown

Planned for since 2005 yet not a shovel in the ground yet and no apparent idea when there will be one…

planning permission for the rebranded Metrolink wasn’t sought until last October, 2022.

Navan …it will be kicked down the road, put in front of various committees, changed, edited to an inferior version and fûcked up like everything else. All at a significant extra cost to the taxpayers.

how come it’s so impossible in this country to plan, approve build and implement these services with efficiency and with the requirements of citizens in mind.

road_high

They don’t want to do it. Politically it’s more popular dish out endless welfare entitlements than invest the money in long term projects that would pay off. If they really wanted to build a metro etc they’d be doing it. They don’t

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832803#Comment_120832803

The Navan rail idea wont be changed or edited to an inferior version as they are starting off with the crappiest version which is following the Victorian alignment which has no advantages (as much of the line is gone, it needs to be rebuilt from scratch and land needs to be CPOed) and avoids population centres. Can't edit to inferior when the starting point is the worst version possible.

Your criticism of Metrolink is stupid tbh, it needs to obtain a RO before a construction or completion date can be confirmed. The hurdles need to be cleared one at a time, no point setting a date for several hurdles down the line when you don't know when you'll have cleared the current hurdle.

Cosmo Kramer

Genuine question - there is an existing rail line running through Navan as explained in the article. It runs to Drogheda where it presumably links to the Belfast to Dublin line and freight trains occasionally run on it. Obviously it's not a very direct routing to Dublin, but would it involve significant works to reopen that line to passenger trains which could continue past Drogheda to Dublin if the demand was deemed to be there to do so?

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833372#Comment_120833372

The Navan-Drogheda line is Navan's own Phoenix Park tunnel: a perfectly feasible bit of infrastructure that could and should be used in its own right irrespective of whether there's a direct line to Dublin, but one which risks instead being used to scupper the direct Navan-Dublin line at some point in the future.

Cosmo Kramer

I just wondered as, despite the routing via Drogheda, there might be scope for services that, at peak times, would get commuters to the centre of Dublin quicker than going via road during rush hour traffic. It's built and it's there, it presumably couldn't cost that much to put it back into use?

By all means continue to look to progress the more direct route but being honest, looking at the amount of development in and around the old more direct line, it strikes me as the kind of infrastructure development that just isn't realistically going to happen in Ireland in any of our lifetimes.

end of the road

disgraceful to be honest.

the whole lot could have, dispite the recession, been finished in 2010 to navan if there really was a will.

there wasn't then and i believe there isn't now and there won't be in 13 years.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833295#Comment_120833295

Hardly stupid when 20 years at a minimum will pass and nothing in the way of construction started..nothing of an idea available as to when it will start, finish or otherwise.

so by those very ‘standards’ Navan…. Well, we’ll see. :)

for comparative reference

Metro RO lodged : 30/09/22

decision due : 21/12/23

Navan has been kicked into the ether, what version of it if any we see, who knows what or when.

L1011

There is no Northern Line capacity to add direct services via Drogheda

There is no space on existing Drogheda trains to add a shuttle either. It would need to be seen after a period of time after DART+ started on the Northern Line to see whether this could be accommodated.

There will probably be some form of DMU stock available - 2600s displaced by refurbed 29000s maybe - to do an el cheapo shuttle at that point. But realistically if a service started via Drogheda, there would probably never be a service via Clonsilla.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834019#Comment_120834019

I don't think that the route via Drogheda would get commuters to the centre of Dublin quicker than going via road during rush hour traffic. Speed is limited to Drogheda and there aren't paths available south of Drogheda so changing trains would be required, but the Navan branch joins the Northern Line south of Drogheda station so not easy to get a train there. It could be made to work but I don’t think journey times or level of service will be attractive enough.

Realistically, Navan is looking at buses or P&R at M3 Parkway for the foreseeable future. A phased plan would be more achievable, it's less than 10km to Dunshaughlin and apart from crossing the M3, there would be no physical/geographical issues to deal with. Given the growing population there, and it being an extension of an existing service, it might be feasible. Once that far, Navan could be a future extension.

Murph85

The greens in power, tens of billions this year alone, in unexpected tax revenue, climate emergency. This little island still can't organise anything... I'm sick of hearing all this environment concern or feigned concern from the government, where they blatantly couldn't care less or collosally reducing transport emissions, soon, would be a top priority and vote winner...

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832803#Comment_120832803

The Metro was first planned in 1975 (and that was a system, not the half a line proposed now, which it is still uncertain we'll ever get)

Hotblack Desiato

Letter in today's IT a perfect example of the crayoner mentality:

Sir, – Now that Tara Mines has closed temporarily, this is the perfect opportunity for Irish Rail to upgrade the rail line from Drogheda to Navan that already exists and is used to transport ore from the mine to Dublin Port.

Irish Rail has previously stated that the line is not up to standard for passenger traffic.

It also has an agenda to complete the line from Enfield rather than upgrade an existing line. – Yours, etc,

TIM SWEETMAN,

Graiguenamanagh,

Co Kilkenny.

Sure why have a direct route when you can slowly meander off through the countryside (going further away from your destination!) and then deliver your passengers to a line which is already over capacity 🙄

How is the issue of crossing the M3 going to be solved though? edit: there is provision of sorts for an underpass https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/111986986/#Comment_111986986

L1011

Crayoner with no idea of what the proposal is, or of geography (by mentioning Enfield)

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840956#Comment_120840956

Indeed. Perhaps they were thinking that it would connect Trim as well? We'll be in the timeline of the United Federation of Planets by the time that would happen.

Hotblack Desiato

I can just imagine the Waterford Whispers headline now:

'TELEPORTATION TO SOLVE TRANSPORT ISSUES' - MINISTER

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840956#Comment_120840956

It'd be nice if one of the knowledgeable people here would write in a rebuttal 😉

lettersed AT irishtimes.com

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841158#Comment_120841158

Back when the Clonsilla-Pace section of rail was being built and the Pace-Navan section was still planned, I recall an editorial in a local paper advocating for a spur to Trim. The author argued "it'll only take a few miles of rail" (crayoners always seem to use miles) to "make Trim a railway town again".

LuckyLloyd

It’s not a ridiculous proposal for a quick win upgrade of the existing line and running some trains from Navan to Dublin along the existing alignment. Utilising existing infra to provide service at a minimal cost is surely something to consider; the more ambitious plans for a completely new alignment can be advocated for in parallel.

The knowledgeable posters always reject this out of hand, but if passenger trains were running from Navan to Connolly people would use them.

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840939#Comment_120840939

crossing the M3 is not an issue, if the underpass isnt suitable then just build a bridge. The project will cost a fortune anyhow (and Ireland has the cash) so a bridge here or there isnt a biggie.

And if you want to see a project from the last 5 years where a railway needed to get from one side of a Motorway to the other using a bridge, and in a rather tight space , then have a look her just outside Munich airport for the new link to Regensburg. It actually crosses a motorway, then one of the rail tracks and lands in the middle and then is 4 track for a litle bit before merging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neufahrn_Link

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951281#Comment_120951281

Indeed. I must road test the actual journey times to and from Navan by bus. I am not convinced by the Pollyanna like views of Dublin - Navan bus journey times sometimes expressed on boards. When I lived in Celbridge the 67 and 120 journey times were unpredictable, to say the least. I nearly always used the train and Luas combo.

LuckyLloyd

Navan to Dublin via the old alignment may well take 70mins, but some people will still prefer to utilise it even if it is slower than bus / car.

Seems like a quick win, a pragmatic tactical option that doesn’t preclude building the right long term solution in due course.

thomasj

you're ready to go all guns blazing storming into a room , that , not only is there a giant elephant in the room , but its blocking the entrance, and any hope of you getting into the room......

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952242#Comment_120952242

General official inertia is the only real elephant in practically any situation.

thomasj

The point here is :

1. Capacity/Paths paths out of Drogheda/Balbriggan/Skerries
2. Capacity/Paths on the Malahide/Howth DARTs
3. Capacity/paths into Connolly from the Northern line

You're suggesting through extra services onto a route that has no spare capacity, and thats without even considering the issues from Navan into Drogheda.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952890#Comment_120952890

Well the Tara Mines trains aren't running, appreciate it is a minor reduction of load but is a reduction nonetheless

Potentially Navan to Dublin services could serve Drogheda? They'd have to reverse in to the platform so extra runtime from the Navan passenger perspective, but no odds to Drogheda to Dublin commuters as it would just be certain trains going to Connolly with people already on them. In this way the extra slots being requested going into Connolly are minimal.

I won't argue that a critical rail infra priority is increasing Northern Line capacity into Dublin. There's lots and lots to be done in a state that hasn't built truly new heavy rail alignments...ever, so when we talk about increasing services the first port of calls should be maximising infra we already have. Rather than crayon drawing new lines that have no funding.

road_high

Would surely take at least 90 mins to get from navan to Dublin via this route? Assuming a fairly seamless connection at Drogheda to Connolly

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958424#Comment_120958424

I understood runtime would be ~70mins. If it served Drogheda you’d need to add more onto it.

Yes it would be slower than car or bus, but you’d still have people who would use the service in-spite of that.

And this is a connection we can create for very minimal investment. Track is there, station is there, trains are available. Some minor refurbishment, track / signal upgrades, schedule updates and it’s up and running.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958584#Comment_120958584

I don't understand the necessity to reverse at Drogheda - all they have to do is add a platform at the point the branch meets the main line.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958637#Comment_120958637

I’m eschewing anything complicated / expensive from the proposal. If people in Navan want a rail connection in the short term they need to make an ask of Irish Rail that involves as little work as possible.

Irish Rail are in the business of mothballing / lifting rail connections, not creating them.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958637#Comment_120958637

The Dart+ Coastal North Railway Order includes a new "Platform 4" at Drogheda to serve the Navan line.

This is from the Dart+ website. Not sure if the RO docs have more details on any planned passenger services to Navan.

A sub one hour journey time would be possible for some services. Currently the quickest service from Drogheda to Connolly is 35mins. The branch to Navan is only 27km and is fairly straight, so would only take additional 15mins.

Pete_Cavan

The only way running trains from Navan on the existing lines would be attractive is if Metrolink was extended to meet the Northern line. Terminating platforms would have to be added at the interchange station, then you could run Navan trains to there without going onto the really busy part of the line.

Even then, journey times into Dublin city centre probably would be too long for most people but it would allow people access jobs etc. around Swords and the airport, plus students in DCU might use it. I'd say there'd be considerable transfers from existing heavy rail services to Metrolink, more than enough to make the extension worthwhile, then adding Navan services would be very cheap.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958645#Comment_120958645

The problem is time. Navan has a regular half hourly bus service to Dublin and a regular direct bus service to Dublin airport. The train going via Drogheda cannot compete with either of these services time wise. In addition the Park and ride facility is only 30km ish from Navan just past the M3 toll.

The route via Drogheda is too long/slow compared to existing services car or bus.

There have been people in Navan calling for a train to Dublin for decades the fact that there has never been any significant calls to use the Drogheda line should tell you all about how acceptable this option would be.

The thing about the rail link to Dublin is that its not specifically about a "railway" its about an efficient public transport link to Dublin City centre. A railway is perceived as a far better link than the current bus service. If you love railways yes the Drogheda route would work but I'd argue anyone who advocates this option completely misunderstands what the people representing Navan want.

The fact is there is a demand for a direct railway from Navan to Dublin. The large amount of buses that go from/through Navan on the way to Dublin on a daily basis is testament to that. I'd argue Navan has better connections to Dublin City centre and airport than certain parts of Dublin city itself.

However despite this clear demand the project has stalled unlike some other railway projects that have happened(looking at a certain railway in the west of Ireland). The only thing that I do concede is that Navans proximity to Dublin makes things a lot more complicated. Higher land values and higher population(more people to object and just annoy in general ie when they realise a new railway will run along the back of their house etc).

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958814#Comment_120958814

The new platform isn't for Navan services, it is for the additional turnback requirements for Drogheda with service increases.

mikeybhoy

Why not just run a Navan-Drogheda shuttle? Not everyone is going to Dublin help connect Navan to other places like Dundalk, Balbriggan, Malahide and Belfast.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991105#Comment_120991105

At least it greases the path(s) towards a branch service. The time for excuses is over.