RTE isn't the only state body with entitlement, nepotism and freeloaders.

steddyeddy

I previously worked in the HSE. What they describe in RTE is happening in the HSE as well as other agencies. Why are Irish state bodies prone to this? In my view the answer is nepotism. In the HSE I worked in a biochemistry lab where one woman would populate the place with her family. One of her nephews was incompetent. He routinely mixed up blood work results from patients. He was protected against multiple complaints because his aunt was in charge of the disciplinary process. Unsurprisingly this put off many people from complaining.

A former colleague moved to the Dep of Work and Pensions. In the office, she witnessed two lifers roll around on the ground fighting each other after a liquid lunch. Their relative was in charge of the disciplinary process.

A relation of mine did actually work at RTE as an intern. She describes a culture whereby the talent, and the technical support do very little, holding the place to ransom while drawing large wages. Again half of the organization are related to each other. She left the organization but her intern colleagues tried to stay on only to find that the position had been given to someone with a better placed relative.

In every experience I describe, mine in the HSE, my colleague's in the Dep of work and pensions and my relation there was official complaints about the nepotism and its effects. In all of these cases it was evident that these state bodies (private firms can do what they want) they could get away with it because a lot of Irish people see nothing wrong with nepotism. One decent, senior consultant in the HSE told me that state bodies are fueled by nepotism and by an extension a sense of entitlement. The beneficiaries of this protect themselves from criticism of this by labelling the critics as begrudgers. A word which means nothing outside of Ireland and attacks those who rightly call out those who have been put in positions irrelevant of merit.

So my question after this rant is simple. Why do you think we allow these organizations to operate like they do, will RTE's recent revelations reveal more about other state bodies and will there now be an appetite for change.

Strumms

Ireland is rated quite highly on most lists / indexes that measure or interpret levels of corruption. ‘Transparency International’ which compiles and operates a list called Corruption Perceptions Index… has Ireland at number 13 in the world, as in they believe Ireland is the 13th most corrupt country in the world…. Now such lists can’t be considered absolute in their accuracy given the nature of corruption… underhanded, under the table etc…but it’s certainly indicative of how we are viewed… and what measuring can be applied has us up there with the worst.

a time ago I worked for another state owned company….

One individual there was managing his own wife ffs. He is still working there, her I don’t know.

another manager whilst not managing her husband directly, was in an adjoining department that interacted and overlapped regularly and certainly would have had influence if she’d needed to use it.. those are just two examples, there were husbands / wives, siblings all over the gaff….

BattleCorp

Ireland is nowhere near the 13th most corrupt country in the world. That's a pile of shyte. There are loads of polls and nearly all of them say we aren't a corrupt country. This poll for example has Ireland as the 10th least corrupt country.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank

doc22

Families working together in the public sector isn’t an issue. It’s the hiring process were public organisations hiring decision are based family relationships rather then best person for the job. The issue can’t happen in the civil service or HSE as it largely all centralised recruitment, but for other public bodies and Sec 38 it’s the wild west, with interconnect family’s making up an sizable portion of staff in some organisations.

Collie D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821982#Comment_120821982

Without Googling I’d be pretty confident you’re reading that ranking upside down and we’re considered the 13th least corrupt country.

I would find it difficult to believe there are only a dozen countries with more corruption than Ireland in the world. Even in the EU I would think there are more.

davetherave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821982#Comment_120821982

13th most corrupt country in the world.

It is far from it. If you bothered to read the page with said list on it, you would understand said numbering system.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

The CPI ranks 180 countries and territories around the world by their perceived levels of public sector corruption, scoring on a scale of 0 (highly corrupt) to 100 (very clean).

Score - Country- Rank

• 90 - Denmark- 1
• 87 - Finland - 2
• 87 - New Zealand -2
• 84 - Norway - 4
• 83 - Singapore - 5
• 83 - Sweden - 5
• 82 - Switzerland - 7
• 80 - Netherlands - 8
• 79 - Germany - 9
• 77 - Ireland - 10

A higher score means very clean. A lower score means highly corrupt. In what world do you think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Singapore and Ireland are more corrupt than Somalia (score - 12, rank 180), South Sudan/Syria (Score 13, rank 178), Libya (Score 17, Rank 171)?

BrianD3

Wherever there is public money involved, there's a risk of nepotism. Rife in the past, up until the 1990s at least, less so now but people will still try to use it to their advantage. E.g children of staff members hired for student summer jobs. They might not be paid much but it gives them an experience advantage over their classmates.

Nepotism probably isn't an issue in the civil service now - but the more autonomous or local a body is, the higher the chance of nepotism and dodgy practices. RTE and other semi states, schools, local authorities, universities, HSE/Health boards, Gardai. And don't even get started on state funded NGOs and private businesses with public contracts.

I've been on many nights out with public servants who were drunk and let their guards down, it was clear they saw nothing wrong with nepotism and in fact regarded it as a perk of the job.

There is also a junket culture in state bodies, the general public get wound up when they hear about RTE executives attending rugby matches but they don't hear about the "croissant and chicken dinner" brigade - people who spend much of their careers going to conferences, seminars, workshops, meetings and external interview boards (where they do a sloppy job) while claiming generous travel and subsistence.

BattleCorp

Fcukin nepotism with the farmers too. Ba5tards leaving their farms to their children. It's an outrage I tell you.

Potatoeman

It’s not the only one, all the state bodies and NGO’s need a proper audit. Lots of shady characters lining their pockets.

It's my belief that the charity/NGO sector is rife with incompetence and wastage. I like to believe the majority of the people working in these organisations have good hearts, they are just let down by poor management and a lack of oversight. I don't believe we are that corrupt as a country. I believe in Ireland's case, the saying which goes along the lines of "never attribute malice to what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

Here is just one random example. I'm sure unfortunately there are many other organisations like it in the country.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2022/12/07/pressure-grows-in-mayo-over-western-care-internal-controversy/

bucketybuck

Its not nepotism, it is far worse than that. If there were no wives or brothers hired those places would still be useless, because they reflect the Irish culture.

Useless gombeens at absolutely every level of society, the Irish get what they deserve.

I think people can sometimes like to think that Ireland is like Colombia or somewhere in terms of crime and corruption, but still, what corruption there is is unacceptable. I worked in a local authority and some of the sh1t was unbelievable. The lads going on the piss or the golf course for the day, the sexism, the sheer lack of competence/interest/awareness.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822143#Comment_120822143

You're comparing a family business with government and semi state bodies?

Danzy

We would be one of the least corrupt countries in the world, by some margin.

That doesn't mean it is all perfect, just measurably better than most.

There are issues around the spending of public money, it's a cash cow for the connected, that includes the outrageous NGO funding in the state which a few years ago was at 8% of entire expenditure.

The RTE debacle is poc money.

Cluedo Monopoly

I don't think the corruption indexes capture the level of corruption in Ireland because we let it slide so much. There is clearly corruption in RTE but it's only coming out now.

Martina1991

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304198/rte-isnt-the-only-state-body-with-entitlement-nepotism-and-freeloaders

To practice as a medical scientist in a hospital laboratory you have to have to have the proper qualification and garda vetting.

There are recruitment processes in place where jobs have to be advertised, interviews carried out and panels formed.

I don't understand how anyone can "populate the place with family" when there are so many policies in place. An incompetent nephew would not just be given access to patient data under GDPR if they weren't qualified.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822180#Comment_120822180

The liquid lunches were common in the private sector twenty years ago too, it’s not tolerated now. It might happen at the work Christmas lunch but it used to be common on Fridays.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304198/rte-isnt-the-only-state-body-with-entitlement-nepotism-and-freeloaders

In answer to your question, you have made several serious allegations here, if you fail to report them then you know your answer.... so it's up to your to answer the question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822232#Comment_120822232

Private sector is their own money. And this wasn't just Fridays! But yes, things have improved in fairness.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822013#Comment_120822013

The Transparency international.. Global Corruption Perception Index shows us at 13th

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822193#Comment_120822193

The Tubridy matter is one thing - it's bad form in fairness. But the massive ordeal over Marty and the car, and Lottie and the car, is just the ultimate in faux outrage. They're pretending to be angry but they're loving it!

Emblematic

There's definitely a cultural tolerance of nepotism that may be fading but is still present. May be a legacy of foreign rule in that we tend to see state bodies as things to be exploited for individual gain and the gain of family and friends rather than held in common ownership for the common good.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822316#Comment_120822316

You’re reading it wrong.

It has us the joint tenth least corrupt.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822013#Comment_120822013

Yes, I think the 13th of the quoted poster probably refers to the 13th of the previous year where Ireland was among the 13th least corrupted according to how the panel surveyed perceived corruption in Ireland.

However things like nepotism won't feature in such a ranking if they are fully accepted by society.

From the website: "The sources and surveys which make up the CPI are based on carefully designed and calibrated questionnaires, answered by experts and businesspeople."

Nepotism is not just an Irish thing by the way. Most of the time "only in Ireland", "typical Ireland" (said by Irish people) refers to stuff that happens anywhere.

Collie D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822316#Comment_120822316

You’re reading it wrong. No harm in that but it’s been pointed out a few times now and you’re still presenting it as fact.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822182#Comment_120822182

I'm acting the bollix is what I'm doing. Thought that was obvious.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822316#Comment_120822316

13th Least corrupt. So another 180 worse than us.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822330#Comment_120822330

Is there any country in the world it doesn't happen?

From my experience of working in France and Nederlands, they have as much and there is no public disquiet about it at all.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822370#Comment_120822370

Completely and usually at much worse levels even in Europe.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822330#Comment_120822330

Yeah, there seems to be an element of getting one over on the gubmint/civil service without realizing that it’s taxpayers ultimately being shat on.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822538#Comment_120822538

Yeah. Jayzus, @Strumms.

You only have to look at the ranking - Denmark highest, Somalia lowest - and figure out the correct interpretation from there.

Marty Bird

Rolling around after a liquid lunch great story OP and no doubt true. I laughed hard after that bit. Only in our green and pleasant land

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822316#Comment_120822316

Is there any chance you might be adding your own bias and seeing what you want to see as its pretty obvious from a quick glance that we are 13th least corrupt on that index

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823279#Comment_120823279

Indeed Marty. It's not as bad as the crap coming from RTE obviously but still. I live in Germany now and my work colleagues find much of the RTE/state body behaviour unbelievable.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304198/rte-isnt-the-only-state-body-with-entitlement-nepotism-and-freeloaders

Interesting but why don't you act then or go to the media with what you know? Another poster alluded to this.

You're complaining but expect others to act?

That makes you part of the societal problem you're complaining about.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822013#Comment_120822013

I don't the criteria for that survey accurately reflects the type of gombeen shenanigans that goes on in Ireland. We have our own style of corruption. Nod and wink, cute hoorism.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823499#Comment_120823499

Have the Germans ever heard of Patricia Schlesinger head of the public broadcaster busted de frauding the German public broadcasting system only last year.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823691#Comment_120823691

Are you joking? It is in the media. HSE nepotism was covered extensively in the media. I'm not reporting anything new or shocking.

I mean look at what's coming out of RTE. There was hints of this for years. I did of course report the HSE incident.

zell12

We don't have this level of fraud..do we?

The employee was a civil servant, and was assigned to a job in the hospital in 2005. It was at this point he stopped going into work, the police said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56822571

astrofool

Public bodies inevitably end up being run solely for the benefit of their workers, this pattern keeps repeating with accountability dropping away over time as new pay deals are negotiated.

A strong regulatory framework that is independent of political interference and of the body itself is required or move it to a fully private system that allows for the body to go out of business (not always possible but large parts of RTE aren't necessities, we're still funding 2 orchestra, for example).

lumphammer2

Because they are a very visible organisation it is clear for all to see the corruption in RTE ... we see guys like Ryan Tubridy all the time .... we know they are paid way too much for what they do ... but less visible corruption is elsewhere ....

I'd very much look at organisations like UCD, UCC, et al .... teachers writing academic papers and going to Hawaii and other exotic locations for decades to present them at self serving conferences ... and not showing up as a result to teach classes ... how much money do these 'teachers' get to tour the world?? Who do they think they are?? Indiana Jones? ..

It seems that no one anymore want to do the ordinary job ... they all have to be on the junket ... and can get more money, free nights out and even trips abroad ... glamouress and unnecessary cushy jobs created for the boys exists at the top echelons of most organisations ... and not just Ireland ... Ireland is one of the better countries ... but corruption exists everywhere ...

irishgeo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823756#Comment_120823756

Or the new Berlin airport. Huge levels of corruption there.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824188#Comment_120824188

The average person is half asleep, has a short attention span and is apathetic. They know who Ryan Tubridy is and as long as the media keeps pushing the story, they will pay some attention - but once that stops they will move on to something else.

They don't know who Dee Forbes is or what a slush fund or barter account is.

If someone is criticised for nepotism, lying on a planning application or junketing using public money, many people will be thinking "Shur, I'd do that meself".

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822150#Comment_120822150

Ireland, where the buck stops nowhere. €6 billion a year, no accountability, lots of possibilities to hide behind "the childers" or "the planet" and siphon off a few quid here and there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZaGE4Ykk8c

ZookeeperDub

The biggest issue in Ireland is the procurement system.

You will find in RTE/HSE/Government etc they waste millions every year with providers who are picked because they bring them to the pub/game/etc and not because they have the best product or even the cheapest product.

In another life I worked in a company which was trying to win tenders. After about 18 months we just left it. It didn't matter what process we used the government agency was buying from the same crowd. We didn't have a large budget for events, seen it with my own eyes in middle of tender process and I was at rugby game with friends. Seen the government customer with our rival at the rugby game and heading up to boxes. Needless to say on Monday we got a call saying we had lost out and no chance to do a loss review.

Just look at HSE, total incompetence in the HSE but also all the supplier who run a lot of the Security services. None of them, none, have been fired or contracts cancelled since the attack. Instead the millions and millions that was given to the HSE was ploughed into these companies. So why wouldn't these companies help the ransomware attacks becuase they end up making the money out of the disaster after it

After all check into who HSE have hired in since but is still part of a supplier, where he came from, who was their biggest supplier before the attack, who is the biggest supplier moving forward.

Any other country we would have a huge conflict of interest yet in Ireland we have the opposite. It's a disgrace.

Mullaghteelin

The OP made a point that I think is important. Many Irish people love to accuse other Irish people of begrudgery, a word that means nothing elsewhere.

This word is used most effectively to shut down awkward questions. It accuses others of petty jealousy. It allows chancers and gombeens to defend the indefensible.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824709#Comment_120824709

Thanks Mullag. I have lived in six countries and have never encountered this word before. Sure people accuse others of jealousy but I haven't seen another incidence whereby a a whole nation are labelled as being begrudgers. It's not an accurate description of the Irish people but as a strawman argument used against those who criticize corruption, nepotism and unfair advantage. This is evident by the fact that the word is now being used to attack people who have a problem with RTE!

We don't need IQ tests when we can simply ask someone if they think begrudgery is an accurate word or not.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824581#Comment_120824581

I've little doubt that schmoozing with suppliers is an issue in RTE and other commercial semi states. But from my own experience in the public service, problems with procurement and subsequent contract management are rarely due to corruption but more due to lack of expertise, inertia, apathy and fear. If a service is outsourced to the private sector and the incumbent is not making an utter fuckup of it, nobody will want to switch to a different provider when the contract is up. Even if they are making an utter fcukup of it, there will be fear about switching as the incumbent might threaten to sue.

In many cases, the people working in procurement and contract management don't know what they're doing and a private sector provider that is accustomed to dealing with the public sector can run rings around them. E.g. if the HSE does not employ competent cybersecurity professionals and instead outsources cybersecurity to the private sector, who is going to be producing the RFTs and evaluating the tenders? At this point somebody will cry out "we need to engage consultants!" Maybe somebody like this crowd

https://publicprocurement.ie/

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824581#Comment_120824581

Thank you for mentioning this. I mentioned this previously on Boards (years ago) and I was met with the begrudgery comments and why don't you complain (I did). You also get people (who have appeared on this thread) who will disbelieve you.

In the hospital biochemistry labs where I worked we would pay up to three times the average for some reagents and equipment. The supplier was also related to someone who worked in the HSE.

I'll be honest bud. The Irish public are so apathetic and even supportive of issues like this that it's not an issue that's going away soon.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824502#Comment_120824502

I keep mentioning nepotism and I think I should justify it. The reasons I think it's bad in the public service are many. First of all someone's aunt, mother or brother are not going to be able to accurately asses if that person is the best for the job. They want that person not because of competence but because they want to reward their family.

Secondly, I worked in environments like this and it allows corruption to thrive. When half a department is related then who do you complain to? Furthermore, who is accuse their aunt or uncle who go them the job of corruption?

You wouldn't believe how much money the HSE is wasting. How much waste the hard pressed Irish taxpayer is funding.