Dublin urgently needs to enforce a green belt

dublincc2

The urban sprawl of Dublin is already out of control and a hard stop has to be implemented.

West Dublin over the past few decades has exploded with development and naturally this has spilled over county lines to Kildare. Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth are now contiguous parts of the Dublin metropolitan area, with almost no green space separating them anymore.

I fear the same is now happening with the north county, previously mostly unblemished. New developments mean that once separate and independent communities like Swords and Malahide, which are distinct localities, are becoming one urban area with only a couple of fields separating them. One could argue that development in Swords has gone over the top. It was always inevitable, being a settlement on the main road north from the city, that Swords would become a substantial satellite town but we can see with the metro saga that it’s population has exceeded the facilities in the area.

Other areas such as the Malahide road between Balgriffin and Malahide village are also seeing development, with Kinsealy set to be built up over the next decade. This completely ruins the rural nature of this area and makes Malahide more at risk of becoming contiguous with the city.

Other areas in rural Fingal such as Lusk are also seeing similar problems with excessive development. These areas are agricultural village communities and shouldn’t become suburbs.

The solution is obvious, higher-density in closer proximity to the city centre, including high-rise.

But until that happens however, we need to protect the green space that’s left in County Dublin.

gameoverdude

Simply no. Been tried and failed... unless you mean stack em and stak em?

Plenty of green spaces in Dublin. Should everywhere have a park for 200 people (I'll answer my own question they do have access)?

suvigirl

That's what happens when everyone wants to live beside the city.

There are actually loads of parks and been areas in Dublin

Tenzor07

People don't want development in their areas, apartment blocks, No! Too high... Build somewhere else..

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2022/11/02/dublin-city-councillors-block-future-housing-schemes-beside-st-annes-park/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/05/12/local-opposition-to-800-unit-apartment-scheme-on-grounds-of-st-vincents-hospital-in-fairview/

https://www.fm104.ie/news/fm104-news/concern-over-plans-for-850-homes-in-coolock/

If no one wants housing near them then how is the problem of homelessness, lack of housing, urban sprawl, car commuting going to be solved..

dublincc2

I am not one of these Greta-type environmental extremists but at the same time I don’t want to see the green countryside of Co. Dublin destroyed forever. Look at how London etc has turned out.

Flinty997

During my lifetime the green areas in Dublin have shrunk massively. I don't think there's anything you can do about it. There just isn't the interest.

satguy

People want homes, not parks,, People with homes, want parks.

Something has to give..

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820212#Comment_120820212

They want homes. Then they will want parks when they realise they live in a hi rise car park, or concrete suburbia.

Once the green is gone, its not coming back in their lifetime.

Strumms

What they are doing out Kinsealy, Balgriffin, Malahide way is brutal…. Not a cats chance in hell the majority of that planning gets the go ahead ten years ago…. Especially the stuff popping up around Balgriffin and Malahide.

the planning laws never changed.

nowhere near adequate road infrastructure.

RichardAnd

The state wants to increase the population here by one million by 2040, and if things carry on as they are, it will likely be more than that. If that is going to happen, Dublin will continue to expand into a concrete jungle.

I find this repugnant, and what has happened to Dublin deeply saddens me. However, as long as the economy is geared towards chasing the infinite growth genie, immigration will continue to be massive, land will be gobbled up for development and Dublin city will become more and more congested, just like London is across the pond.

Personally, I'm rather confused as to how the state can espouse policy that ostensibly aims to protect the environment whilst simultaneously pursuing the above. To me, it seems rather contradictory, but I'm sure that these wise people in power are not simply thinking only of feathering their own nests, consequences be damned :).

dublincc2

The rural character of Fingal needs to be preserved at all costs.

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819792#Comment_120819792

Where do you propose people to live? People need housing, since the NIMBYS don't want us to build dense housing/high rise apartments, we must build out. People don't want to live far out in the countryside where they will have long commutes to work. I'm not aware of a coastal city in a highly development economy that continues to grow which has a managed a perfect balance of green and lots of housing/industry, are you? I'd love to know of one.

The one of the major issues with Dublin is the incredibly poor public transportation system. We need more luas lines or a underground to service the urban sprawl and reduce congestion.

I find that some people who are against housing in their areas or even areas not close to their own, already having their own home so they become more ecological.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833171#Comment_120833171

The one of the major issues with Dublin is the incredibly poor public transportation system. We need more luas lines or a underground to service the urban sprawl and reduce congestion.

We need to stop the NIMBYs having so much power. The needs of the many have to outweigh the needs of the few. NIMBYs have stopped us getting a Metro on the Southern end of the Green line as they have to drive a bit further to get into their homes that are walking distance from the city centre!!

We need to start razing the low density areas in the centre of Dublin and put in proper modern high density developments. Stop putting high density developments at the end of Luas/Train/Bus routes. Both Luas lines are already at capacity yet we are building massive amounts of houses and apartments in Citywest and Cherrywood. What are the people who don't live in Citywest or Cherrywood supposed to do for PT when it's all full from the terminus.

We need 15 minute cities in the centre of our cities not out in the suburbs.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833531#Comment_120833531

What do you propose to do about the people who own and live in the properties in the low density areas?

Xterminator

The 1st thing i would propose is to limit their ability to delay housing projects, to pull up the ladder after them.

If a housing development (or compulsory purchase order for public works) gets the greenlight then there should be one appeal and one only. No high court. no supreme court (the supreme count could refuse to hear these cases).

that way developers would have a timeline of when these works can begin and the delaying tactics would be stopped at source.

Flinty997

...developers and planners having such a good reputation...

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833567#Comment_120833567

CPO

L1011

London green belt is one of the reasons their housing issues are so bad. It's a reactionary solution and ties hands for literally decades to come.

Sensible density, and making clear to wealthy interests that all they'll achieve by going to court to try stop that will be a massive set of legal fees when they lose, plus people actually paying attention to zoning are what's needed. Lots of the "sprawl" is land that was zoned for development twenty plus years back so a reactionary measure against future zoning would do nothing to it

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840152#Comment_120840152

Always wondered why they don't do more of theses where it makes sense.

I suppose it can be abused.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840165#Comment_120840165

Without the green belt London would have turned into Los Angeles.

Their housing crisis is caused by similar issues to our own. Selling off public housing, and not replacing it, which causes a shortage of social housing which spreads from the bottom to. The commoditization of housing which course people buy up properties as investments and and in some cases leave them empty.

Any issues from the green belt are minor compared to that.

Hurrache

Parts of Fingal currently does have a stretch of land zoned as a green belt between it and Meath, it's along where Fingal joins with Meath around the Kilbride area.

However housing is currently being built right up to the line and what is agricultural land has been sold in the general area, no doubt in anticipation of rezoning. It'll be interesting what happens with it under the next LDAP.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840152#Comment_120840152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840167#Comment_120840167

Does no one else find it extremely unsettling that the idea of taking people's private property is so casually thrown around?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840288#Comment_120840288

I find it unsettling that no one cares that we are destroying our countryside. Farmers are being forced to rewild and we could loose large amounts of farmland to rewetting laws. Yet we continue to build further out into the countryside or up the Dublin mountains. There would be less need for public transport if people lived in our cities. Instead of building multi million Euro train lines all over the country for new homes, spend the millions on razing low density areas in the cities and the build new homes there. People talk of moving Dublin port for more land to build housing, to where as the NIMBYs will block it?, yet ignore the fact that large parts of our city center's are low density or have no residents. Demolishing and decontaminating a port is a huge operation, demolishing low density areas isn't.

They will be compensated for their properties. We've CPO'd homes for motorways and roads. Why can't we CPO properties so we don't have to build more roads or train lines?

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840358#Comment_120840358

Let me be clear. I oppose any form of state expropriation of land, regardless. Farmer's losing their land for the reasons you outline was and is morally reprehensible.

Murph85

Look at cherrywood new development. 5 floor buildings beside the Luas, near no existing residential. But its ok, they can just swallow up the next field, put 5 floor residential there too and everyone can drive everywhere... totally ridiculous....

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840288#Comment_120840288

How is saying a CPO can be abused "casually"

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840520#Comment_120840520

Do you understand what the implications of putting a CPO on a person's house could be? It will mean that private property, instead of being rightfully sacrosanct in law, will be merely conditional on the state's not wanting the said property. There is no good way to use such a power.

I don't doubt for a second that many in power here are salivating at the prospect of being able to do this, and if the last few years have taught me anything, it's that a sizable proportion of the population have no respect for the freedom and rights of others. I am not going to debate this further, as I quite simply am disgusted at the very idea.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841261#Comment_120841261

While you might be "salivating" with outrage. I don't think you understand that CPOs exist and do happen.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cpos-bus-connects-explainer-4073018-Jun2018/

Kurooi

Absolutely not! Greenbelts are pushed by corporate interests that want to further limit supply and squeeze every penny out of us for tiny living cages.

Dublin is growing, because that's where you have to go to get a job and salvage a living. Invest in the rest of Ireland!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120848430#Comment_120848430

Makes no sense. They make more building on them.

Fred Cryton

I've never heard such dangerous nonsense dressed up as virtue. Look at a map. Ireland is 99% green fields. I think we'll be ok when it comes to open green space.

People are only pushed out to Kildare becuase it's becoming impossible to build new housing estates in Dublin. Now you want to stop new housing there as well! in the middle of a housing crisis. Bonkers.

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120848735#Comment_120848735

Developers benefit off building yes. Anyone owning property benefits off the scarcity. Hedge funds like us homeless.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120853259#Comment_120853259

So say you own a house. how do you reap this benefit?

dublincc2

Someone said above that Fingal is the least dense part of the city - which is my point. North county Dublin is not part of the city. It is a rural agricultural area with a some of the best land in the country. We cannot have a situation where large amounts of this land from Balbriggan south to Swords and west to Ashbourne is destroyed by building homes that should be located in the city centre, we need to get rid of low density in the city.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120849564#Comment_120849564

Green belts are not the cause of that. It's successive govt economic policies and housing policy's.

DownByTheGarden

One only has to go to Ashbourne, Ratoath to see what is happening. Used to be nice villages, easy to travel between or around and were well serviced. If you wanted a bigger town it was only 15 mins in a car in several directions.

My brother lives in Ratoath now and when we go to visit him its a nightmare. Traffic is unbelievable unless you travel at the weekend. Last week it took us almost an hour to drive from Swords to his house in Ratoath. He is moving now because he cant handle the rush hour traffic there when he commutes.

The whole area has been over developed. Ruined. Same is starting to happen to a few villages in Fingal now too. Lusk has been destroyed. Balbriggan destroyed, although that was destroyed a long time ago. Rush is still a lovely area but they are working on over building there too. And slapping up big apartment blocks and little housing estates where they just dont belong and ruin whole roads. Allt he lovely little market farms of a half or a couple of acres that were dotted around the place getting little housing estates on them now. Why ruin something that is nice. Just keep the green and the crops that still exists in the place. Once the last of those few fileds are gone they are gone. They act as a nice little carbon sink among the perfect amount of houses that are there now. Skerries is starting to go the same way. Then Ballyboughal, Jesus wept. And Rolestown. All totally ruined by sprael and lack of proper planning and architecture. The whole Malahide road, ruined too.

Flinty997

Can only agree. It's just urban sprawl going further away from decent transport links.

dublincc2

Take a look at the new Belcamp estate near Darndale. Huge open estate parkland with historic houses, it could’ve been turned into another Malahide Castle or Ardgillan and provide a much-needed amenity for that area. Without a doubt the ****bags from Darndale would have wrecked it and turned it into a constant crime scene, but it would have been a good idea to at least try. Better than dumping a load of houses there.

Geuze

There are 1 storey cottages within 1km of OCS.

So a priority should be to demolish any building within the canals that is 1 or 2-stroey, and replace with 4-6 storey buildings.

dublincc2

Agreed. But a lot of them are architecturally significant and listed.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833531#Comment_120833531

Southern end of the green line being minutes from the City Centre? You mean northern/CC end? Otherwise I 100% agree with you.

NIMBY's are certainly an issue, but in may cases they're absolutely right. Sometimes for the wrong reasons, yes, but their genuine objections are very often misrepresented by those jealous of their situation.

My family home was built in 1993 over 10km from Dublin city centre, and at the time there were green fields over the back wall of the house. Since then apartment blocks have gone up locally, and while the 24hr bus service is one of the best in the country, it's still just a bus, and easily takes 1hr to get to the city centre. It's plainly too far out for anything but a metro to support - bus connects is piecemeal nonsense.

The road network has not been upgraded to suit, with the excuse being that people should walk or cycle, but there is little to no land zoned for office/commercial use locally (as a 15min town should have), so people end up commuting into town via an inadequate bus, or to citywest on the M50 anyway, after taking 10+ minutes just to exit their apartment development. It's just terribly planned, and you're immediately labelled a NIMBY if you point that out.

I now live just over 1km from St. Stephens Green in a 1 bed apartment - exactly where we need high-rise, high-density development - not 10+ km out. Building large apartment blocks on any green space you can find, and stating "all housing is good housing", etc destroys the future of those who end up buying those apartments.

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833054#Comment_120833054

There is loads of rural land in Fingal. Thats the part of the city most undeveloped.

its almost like farmland once you get out past the airport.

It should be more populated that close to the city centre.

You sounds as though you want everyone between the canals to live in 20 storey blocks but keep NCD looking like Mayo.

If you like the rural life, pretty much every other county has it in spades. But Dublin will always be prime development land and we do have lots of parks to be fair.

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120848430#Comment_120848430

Not enough people want to live in the rest of ireland as its too rural, espcially for the young folk.

There was a thread recently where someone was advocating Longford as a place for multinationals to set up and attract young global talent.

No offence to Longford but its a small town of 20k people, if that.

Its basically one street!

Not a chance you would get people wanting to move there in their 20s and 30s.

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840512#Comment_120840512

Those developments should be higher, certianly.

7 to 20 stories. but with a proper town centre and parks, bike trails etc.

The developers seem to have forgotten about the town centre aspect.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940335#Comment_120940335

How do you want all these people in Fingal to travel to the city?

Larbre34

Fingal north of Swords is among the best, most productive agricultural land in the Country. Its every bit as important as industry and will become even moreso as time goes by.

The complaints here about overdevelopment, green belt erosion and urban sprawl are overblown. The County Development Plans of all four Dublin authorities allow for intensified development where appropriate, but also preservation of agri and amenity land in vast numbers.

I don't argue that things could always be refined for improvement, but really without the universal acceptance of very high density land re-use inside the M50, (20 storeys+ widely), then the whole model is a bust anyway and commentary around it simply hot air.

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940406#Comment_120940406

Bus, Bike and Car.

Agree we need more road infrasutrucutre to support. But lets face it, thats the only part of the city that is heavily undeveloped. its green fields North and North West of the M50 and thats only 4.5 miles from the city centre.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940349#Comment_120940349

There are more people in the population than those 20-30.

If everyone moves to the same place "the city" then everything there becomes expensive and housing there goes through the roof. .. oh wait...

Lots of people want to be in the city. But you can't have the city be the only option for people.

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940421#Comment_120940421

Not for all people, no. But multinationals need to attract young talent and Longford isnt the place to do it, in fairness.

The govt could invest more in Cork or Galway, but to take a town of 20k people and make it attractive to a multinational cluster isnt going to happen.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940443#Comment_120940443

Not sure why you're so focused on Longford. But there a lack of regional development outside of Dublin. It's skews everything.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120940420#Comment_120940420

Maybe rather than creating yet more sprawl and road traffic, housing should be concentrated along the rail lines.