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"Citizens are fooled by electric pump claims as bills heat up"

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭jkforde


    🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️

    "Since I no longer expect anything from mankind except madness, meanness, and mendacity; egotism, cowardice, and self-delusion, I have stopped being a misanthrope." Irving Layton



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Hearing some horror stories locally, even with new houses. Being Ireland it could easily be down to poor set up or insulation issues. Maybe short cuts during construction show up in a more serious way if heat pumps are used.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Heat Pumps work in some houses, especially new builds if you use huge amounts of insulation and air tightness. My brother build a house with heat pump. He has a cavity wall with insulation, then an outer layer of stone. The all the exterior walls he has put insulated slabs on them on the interior with I think 120mm insulation on the board.

    Similar a cousin done his but I think more than 120mm on the slab, way above the regulation requirements anyway and heat pump works

    Now I am on a heat pump group on facebook and the horror stories are incredible, then again you have people who built a 4500sqft house and complaining about the heating bill. Who needs a 4500 sqft house if they are going to have issues with the bill? absolute lunacy.

    So the main issues seem to be houses too big, or not enough insulation.

    Also a lot of companies have been selling them to replace oil boilers, seen lots of this on a UK group, the thing is going 24x7 and the heat is flowing out the doors/windows etc. For some houses, including mine, the most economical way to heat the house is oil and then layers of insulation, a heat pump in my opinion will never work unless I totally knock the house and start again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    You would be surprised how many people have no idea how to use the system, especially if buying in a new build estate and the builder is not around to show whatever system they installed. Facebook/forums are full of posts asking how to turn this on/off/etc....even posts on how to use controls years after they bought the hosue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Could be a good business in that for an expert to train people how to use their systems properly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    It certainly is gap in market, I have seen a couple of companies now advertising in group they support all heat pumps and service. Before it was a lot of one company for one heat pump etc and this sort of nonsense.

    Like setting the room temps wrong can have a huge affect on the system

    Even my brother ran it for years just on night rate, a guy came in and said totally wrong as the system was cooling down all day and then heating back up at night. plus the house would feel cold so you would be inclined to turn up the temp. He said it is actually way more economical just to leave on all the time so it doesn't cool down and keep house at the same temp all the time. Results from brother after changing he said was impressive as it actually reduced electricity even thou he was now using day rate to keep going,

    Stuff like that is not available for most people. Even my brother read up everything and still didn't know and he is in construction.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Heat pumps are just a heat source. Running at 44c/kwh on a 24hr tariff is going to be on the higher end. My day rate was 29c since last july.

    Letters like that tend to cherry pick numbers, going on the most expensive electric vs the cheapest oil price. Often the house is actually more consistently warmer vs hot/cold/hot/cold

    In the first three months (December 16, 2022 to March 16, 2023) after installation, the heat pump used €755 worth of electricity (1,715kwh x 44 cent). That amount of money would buy 839 litres of home heating oil (at 90 cent a litre), which would heat my home for a full year

    Lets put some of these things into perspective. 1715kwh of electric was used. They got new radiators etc in too. So we should be able to assume a COP of 3.5. That is 6000kwh of heat used to heat the house. averaged out thats only 19kwh a day needed for heat, (I was sinking 30+ into a immersion on a buffer tank, but on 8c/kwh of night rate, It was cheaper than oil by a good bit, got the heating going well before I had to stoke the stove)

    Source: Glyn from Open Energy Monitor did a self install of a heatpump and added extra radiators to a terrace house, Heres his stats, He has got a COP of 4.25 so far

    video of install https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyv_vQEvHgo

    If they never upgraded the old oil boiler, that would have been about 60-70% efficient at a push. (Its a killer on the BER rating) Call it 70%, Amount of kwh of heat from oil would be 7800kwh, 10kwh/l is 780L of oil needed, [that actually lines up quite nicely with their estimate on how much they use to heat in a year. I know it was only 90 odd days, but the worst of the winter is over at that stage.]

    If the person had to buy his fill of oil in December (of 780L), It would have cost about 1.20 a litre, = €936

    If they priced their electric like they price oil, say 30c, 1715kwh, = €514.

    Figures can be worked to tell anyones story.


    People get lost with BER/Insulation/Air tightness. If you done all that and put in a good condensing oil boiler, It would be really cheap to run too. Heat is Heat. If you have enough emitters (radiators, underfloor etc) you can heat a drafty barn with a heatpump and still get a good efficiency out of it.


    I think that is the case a lot of times, you can get away with bad/poorly designed installs with oil or gas, as you can just dump the heat in to make up for it. When oil and gas were super cheap, nobody was the wiser. Only are noticing it now when the price of Oil/gas/electric has doubled or even tripled what it was from a few years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭Eleusis


    I second what zookeeper here is saying. I think a business to be made for someone who knows these inside out.

    I have an experience like his brother. My usage was high when I didn't have it running 24/7. Also if you let the set temperature drop too much the default settings on the ecodan means that the immersion kicks in to help with heating which is very bad. It does this because room temperature isn't climbing fast enough. This can be adjusted in the settings. But its not in the basic settings. Below is screenshot. December is heating periodically. And Jan onwards is after I had a heat pump guru work his magic. Likely with further refining this could get more efficient.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 177 ✭✭Briain O Loinsigh


    hello , I've been involved in heating industry for nearly 30 years and just thought I'd try and simplify my understanding of heat pumps.

    Your bog standard D or E rated 3 bed semi detached would normally require about 15kw in heat to allow for heat loss.

    Heat pumps in general are up to 8kw in domestic setting. So if you can insulate your house below 8kw heat requirement your heat pump will work.

    its really not an issue of the heat pump , but a building design flaw or miscalculation of heat requirement that causes an issue.

    IMO.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,680 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Understood, but as stated above the house in question is A3 rated.

    I would have thought this would be sufficient to ensure that the heat pump would cost less to run than the oil boiler.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 177 ✭✭Briain O Loinsigh


    Heat pumps asside , there is good information on the economics of keeping houses warm 24/7 reduces overall heating cost , as the building retains heat in itself and doesn't require initial start ups every 24 hours.


    I think the key to good savings with heat pumps is to keep stat fixed at 20oC 24/7.

    When you have large heat loss , it's not economical to do this as you're obviously loosing more than you put in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭DC999


    Yep. I heated our sitting room with an electric rad all winter. Only needed the 1.1kW setting on it most of the time. Ran 24 hours a day (on a thermostat so only cane on when room needed it). Night time temp was a lower 'set back' so room never got cold and walls held some heat.

    Difference is that can't heat the room if temp drops a few degrees. Like if we opened the back door in winter. It's 'low and slow heating.

    I did that to test if a heat pump would work for our old uninsulated house. It will I learned.

    We rarely need the 15kW our gas boiler outputs. And I ain't changing it when it dies.

    People here are spot on though. Need to get a really good design from company that know it. And tweak it afterwards. Not 'set and forget' like a gas boiler.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭on_the_roots


    I have a heat pump in a 177 sqm modern A2 house. Here in my estate I see people complaining about HPs all the time and I have noticed that people are used to live in houses with gas/oil heating, so when they look at the elec bill this is shocking as your entire source of energy comes from ESB only. This type of people don't understand the simple maths.

    Additionally, we have seen an incredible increase in unit prices in the last ~18months, which, obviously, is going to increase the price of your elec bill.

    Comparing HPs with Oil heating system is completely wrong. Oil is still by far the cheapest way to heat any type of house, no matter how good or bad your insulation is.

    The problem is not HP, but the current price of electricity.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Not when oil was €2 a litre!

    Even at the more tame cost of oil last winter, Night rate electric was still cheaper than oil.. well mine was at 8c/kwh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭JustJoe7240


    Not to be pedantic but kerosene didn’t go close to €2/l. I’d imagine 1.40-1.45 was close to the ceiling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭on_the_roots


    Who uses night rate electricity only (23pm - 8am) to heat a house in Autum/Winter? You are comparing things like people in the article above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭Sligobuck


    "Who uses night rate electricity only (23pm - 8am) to heat a house in Autum/Winter?"

    I do



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    About 1.80ish on cheapest oil in march 22. But that was ridiculous. Far more reasonable now.

    Me. Night rate electric and turf. I do have a big buffer tank to store it.

    People with storage heaters too use night rate.

    A heat pump is on my agenda though, as I have plenty of solar and batteries too.

    Although if you were heating DHW with oil, it would have been cheaper to boost it with an immersion before the night rate ended. If your night rate was cheap enough.

    Tide is turning on the electric prices now, which will throw the balance back towards the heatpumps vs oil.

    Waterpower, have a variable rate (ie month by month, tracking the wholesale price) still a small company, and have to email/call them.

    Their rate is about 25c/kwh for 24hrs going on the bargains thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭on_the_roots


    "I do" represents only your limited world. Not the entire country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Well I do too. "Boosting" the heat in to the UFH from 5am to 8am worked out very well for me last winter.

    Have you considered your POV also represents only your limited world too?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 898 ✭✭✭autumnalcore


    My heat pump is a veritable dinosaur from 2007, even with current insane prices it still works out slightly less than gas per kWh on average on day night tarriff (I have wattmeter on electric side and ultrasonic heat meter on water side) with the added benefit of no gas standing charge, no boiler servicing and virtually zero maintenance beside cleaning the coil every couple of years.

    People nearly fall over when they hear our electricity bills but when you get them to simply add up their electricity and gas it dawn's on them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    "The problem is not HP, but the current price of electricity."

    And in all my lifetime in this wee country the cost of electricity has trended one direction. And electricity always considered an expensive way to heat space or water. Needs a complete reset IMHO, between the ESB, Bord na Móna, the commercial wind farms and so on - too many vested interests in keeping prices up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭alexf1


    There’s the other issue of people wanting a very warm house. Ours is set at 22 and bumped to 23 degrees the odd day. And some people ‘want’ hot radiators. Can’t really see a heat pump being happy trying to get a house to those temps in December and still be cost effective. A3 new builds near me we’re seeing bills of €600 per month in winter 4 years ago when my gas bill was €80 and electricity was €70 per month. My wife will kick, bite and scream if I set the heating down to 21 in winter. Glad I have gas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭NSAman


    I have an older property which is a holiday home. We were kicking around the idea of a heat pump. Instead we opted for the more efficient oil burner.

    WE upgraded the insulation, replaced the windows and doors with much more insulated 3 panel glass (triple glazed).

    We also run the heating 24/7 at a 16Degrees when not there. The difference has been amazing. Oil was costing me around 3k a year before the upgrades. Now it's less than 1400 a year. With the weather that you have been having the past few weeks, the most time the boiler has been active is 30 minutes a day. Most days it doesnt come on.

    The insulation and the solar gain in the back part of the house (sky lights) has caused the coldest part of the house to now be the warmest.

    We DID install an internet controlled air conditioner air to air... which is very very efficient for heating cooling and dehumidifying. This is not used at all now as the house maintains heat for much longer periods.

    We looked at Heat Pumps but the costs were prohibitive with all the other work, personally I don't think it would have been cost effective in this particular house as it was old.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Personally anyone who sets the heat over 19c needs to get checked by a medical professional 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,186 ✭✭✭✭CoBo55


    Fitting user name ☺️ You must be hating all this sun...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭StonedRaider


    B3 rated home. Myself and about half a dozen neighbours purchased second hand 1000lit oil tanks each (some got ibc) around this time 3years ago. Oil was .48c/lit. I filled both up to the brim @.43c/lit for 2200litres. None of us have yet to top up since then. I've roughly about 600litres left which would last another year.

    Our electricity averages about €1300/year

    Wood stove fuel costs €400/year

    Oil €250/year

    Would consider PV panels soon, once we weed out all the cowboys



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,360 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Lol. We have our heating set to between 17.5 and 18 during the winter at peak times. Something less the rest of the day/night.

    But when we head over to any of our friends houses which are 'a rated', we can't stand the heat. Doesn't help that wife and kids all have eczema which is worsened by hot, stuffy rooms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭Fantana2


    Can you buy HVO for domestic heating? I’d like to replace an old oil boiler with a modern condensing one, would like to use HVO to do my bit for the environment. I’ll get the house heat pump ready, bigger rads insulate etc. Then in 10-15 years see how heat pumps are looking. If you can buy HVO here does anyone know what the premium is per litre?

    6.96kwp South facing



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Believe it, I come from a hot country, and as a kid the heat used to give me nose bleeds all the time.

    Solution? Ireland 😎

    You should look into the Daikin hybrid boiler https://www.daikin-ce.com/en_us/product-group/hybrid-heat-pump/daikin-altherma-r-hybrid.html

    It can run on gas alone, heat pump or combination of both.



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