How hard can it be to get a mezanine built?

Sprinter MacSprinterson

Long story shot, we've decided to get a mezanine built. Few steel beams, few wood beams, floor above kitchen, half dozen stair steps and overall area of 20 square meters or so. Easy job we though, I can literally see what's to be done and I am no builder.

We were told we need Fire Cert and then Disabled Access Cert. Applied for both. The latter is a joke as it's for an apartment but anyway.

Now I am told I cannot just get a builder to work off the drawings and certs, I need someone to provide supervision of job and cert. of compliance. So I called an architect, got a bunch of lingo no idea what's to be done or how much will it be. I am sitting now and thinking what the heck.

Can anyone with knowledge of this sort of process please tell me what is the path of whatever needs to be done to have the bleeping mezzanine done (and I know, I am tempted to get it done ignoring all that given the amount of time and money it takes to build a darn floor within existing dwelling that I will use for kids to play computer games!). Keep in mind I am not loaded but I want to get this done correctly. If at all possible...

Thanks to whoever picks up their keyboards and shares their wisdom.

mickdw

I think the issue here is that you bought an apartment to start with.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058296821/how-hard-can-it-be-to-get-a-mezanine-built

engage an architect/engineer

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608604#Comment_120608604

Funny, didn't know not being loaded or living outside of Dublin is an issue getting on with my life 🤣

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608642#Comment_120608642

You must be an engineer or an architect as this is the type of info I get from the likes but I cannot get anyone to tell me what is involved and where is the bottom of the bucket. I seem to keep going the path of well pay for this, now my job is done go there. No idea where that there leads and what exactly is involved.

bigroad

How are you fixed for height.

muffler

If you applied for the certs you would have needed drawings. Who did that for you and have you consulted them about the issue?

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608693#Comment_120608693

All good height wise both above and below. I have the engineer's drawings and soon both FSC and DAC soon.

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608727#Comment_120608727

Good question. I do have the drawings. I was told to get FAC and DAC sorted elsewhere as they don't do that side.

Furze99

DIY?

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608662#Comment_120608662

Nothing to do with either. Apartments at whatever price point in any given town have many drawbacks considering multiple units in shared structure.

You just found this out.

Plenty more drawbacks too compared to a house.

FJMC

Sometimes quite hard - as you find out when you start exploring the options and looking into the various technical requirements.

Quite a few Building Regulation requirements apply both for the design and the construction - an architect, engineer or surveyor might be the best bet to get proper advice from. The person who dealt with fire certs and access certs might be best placed to advise you if they are already familiar with the apartment and the proposed scheme.

If it is an apartment and you have a leasehold you may also require landlord consent for the works.

Little point building this and than finding you have problems later if it comes to a future sale and purchasers are looking for all the legal approvals required.

Your property is most likely a significant capital asset - you should protect the value of that asset by doing things correctly, with approvals, etc.

F

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120611231#Comment_120611231

The Owners Management Company is unlikely to allow this. DIY with steel beams would be an issue anyway. :)

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058296821/how-hard-can-it-be-to-get-a-mezanine-built

Ok, first off, do you have a Fire Safety Cert granted?

Do you have a DAC granted?

As you are in an apartment (building containing flats) these are required. You then need to engage the services of an Assigned Certifier (AC) to design, inspect and certify the works. The AC can only be a Chartered Engineer, Registered Building Surveyor or Registered Architect.

You will then need Management Company approval as you are increasing the floor space and will be adding additional loading to the existing floors. The structure needs to be checked to see if it can accommodate this additional load which includes the additional dead and imposed loading of the new floor down through the structure columns to the existing slab. This is where it might get complicated so I suggest you get MC approval before you pay the substantial costs of a Fire Safety Cert application.

What stage of the process are you at?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058296821/how-hard-can-it-be-to-get-a-mezanine-built

How high are the existing ceilings?

I have a hard believe that there’s room to slot in a mezzanine above a kitchen. Especially one that only needs half dozen steps.

Its a bit more complicated that a few beans. What how’s up the beams for a start.

Hotblack Desiato

Above a kitchen? Hello massive fire risk

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608668#Comment_120608668

yes i am an architect

you say you called an architect - there is only so much that you can be told over the phone without actually visiting the site, unless you have drawings/photos etc,.

also, you say you called AN architect - not every architect is suitable for every single project. call another 3 or 4 and see can they help you better understand what is involved.

and without knowing too much about the specifics - id be 99% sure that you'll need an engineer to be involved too.

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120611947#Comment_120611947

Hi. Thank you for the reply. Person who did fire cert. only does just that, I still have to find an engineer or architect who oversees the work and does the conformity cert. or whatever it is called.

But yes, I would not DIY anything here, hence going the proper route. I have neighbors who did the same but they are not the chatty kind...

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625554#Comment_120625554

if only I knew this before hand... Currently I have Fire Cert application submitted and accepted, pending approval. I am holding off for DAC as some say I must have it, others say I do not. That can be done in due course before works begin.

You are right, I should locate one of the three mentioned to inspect and advise as I am a bit lost on what's next. To make matters worse most companies either won't take the build job as it is too small or want to do DAC and FSC on top of the rest to get as much money as possible to make it worth their while. Builders' market...

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120642838#Comment_120642838

Ceiling on one side is 3m on the other 5.5m ish so enough for 3 x 6m I believe. I have an engineering drawing and it all fits like a glove. Besides, few other properties in the area done this already and I managed to check one of them. Mind you that was 5+ years ago before DAC was even required.

Note this is not a bedroom and it won't be walled off so no issues there.

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659405#Comment_120659405

My apologies, I wasn't in the right head-space at the time and was pretty annoyed being pushed around from others in your trade. But you are right, not everyone is the same so I will keep trying.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669422#Comment_120669422

Not “should” locate one of the 3, your are legally required to “engage” one of the V3.

And nothing to do with a “builders” market, these are statutory consents that you must have before you even speak to a builder.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669435#Comment_120669435

3m side is obvious not high enough. The 5.5 m will be, but as it drops it’ll get too low quickly.

some basic geometry needed to work out how much space you’ll need. You may get some storage space. I don’t know it you’ll be walking around up there

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672485#Comment_120672485

Hi. Appreciate concern but as mentioned I have visited the exact same layout - no major issues with height. I also have 2D and 3D drawings to account for every cm. We're good on practical and engineering sides, no issues. I just need to get the legal side sorted.

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669670#Comment_120669670

Let's not hang onto wording. My intention is to get this done 100% to code, hence me asking here. I thought that was obvious but just to clarify.

Builders market meaning having "statutory consents" portion of the job done I am no longer a valuable client as now I have paid someone else for engineering drawing, FSC and DAC. Even if (or when) I manage to get one of 3 listed parties to ensure the works comply - I will have a much harder time to get someone just to do the works based on FSC, DAC and engineering drawing. Simply because everyone wants their cake and they'll eat it too.

In case any of the above frustrated you - I am not having a go at you, that's just what the situation is.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681088#Comment_120681088

What is the head head above and be below? And in case its not clear the reason I's asking is that having adequate head height is a requirement for doing this "done 100% to code". Maybe the drawings are fine, but some comments so far are red flags for me personally.

For one, you have drawings, but are struggling to find somebody to sign off on the works. I would have assume the engineer who designed the work would have been happy to continue with it. If they were able to certify it, It begs the question would anyone else take on their risk?

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681417#Comment_120681417

Not to go into too much detail person who submitted FSC and DAC on my behalf is in Sligo. He cannot certify the works as it would require multiple visits on site, I need to look for someone local. Keep in mind this was not known to me before hand.

Height is solid, no issues with this. Let's not dwell on it too much. I just need to call around now to find one of 3 mentioned (Chartered Engineer, Registered Building Surveyor or Registered Architect) to certify the works and the party to carry out the said works. Ideally I would like arrange them for their portion of the job separately which is in my own interest.

At least now I am aware of what's next as previously everyone I called or dealt with before seem to have guided me to a different path.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681595#Comment_120681595

I wasn't referring to the FSC person. That doesn't require certification. I was referring to the engineering design. As one of the 3 professionals you could use is an engineer - seems obvious to use the engineer that you already engaged and who produced the design that is be be certified - I mean, it's very odd that you wouldn't/couldn't go that way.

Height is solid, no issues with this. Let's not dwell on it too much.

I'm sure you are happy with it. But based on what you said (Ceiling on one side is 3m on the other 5.5m ish...). I would have massive concerns.

Maybe I'm picturing it incorrectly. Maybe you described it badly. YOu obviously have more information than I do and have seen the drawings. But please make sure you understand what the requirements are. as you could run into issues down the line. I'm happy to look a drawing for you if you like.

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682446#Comment_120682446

Sorry for late reply. Thank you for your post. At the moment I am finding hard to locate anyone to even consider doing the job and most seem to have their engineers, architects etc. on hand and want to use theirs for, well... obvious reasons. I even had some rejecting the work as I already have the drawing and FSC done, they wanted a share of that pie too and without it just no interested. Weird market.

Victor

"I even had some rejecting the work as I already have the drawing and FSC done, they wanted a share of that pie too and without it just no interested."

Two things come to mind based on this:

1. Why is the previous designer no longer working with the client? They will likely be thinking bothersome client.
2. I can't trust someone else's calculations, my insurance won't cover it.

Sprinter MacSprinterson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510659#Comment_121510659

Fully understand that. And while I cannot convince anyone on 1st point as for 2nd all I want is for them to comply with FSC and take the drawing into consideration. I am open to changes, improvements etc. as long as overall look and feel remains which is mezzanine with staircase access matching the rest of the handrails.

My reasoning was to get FSC done and have it filed away in case something in regulations change etc. Then locate a party who can carry out works with or without their engineers as long as it's done to spec. I did not anticipate this seemingly small and very doable project too small and not worth builder's time. At least in current climate.

In all fairness after making a bunch of calls I let it go for a while, hope to resume next year.