The drawing in the Times UK

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1646448882014986241

I first saw this picture a couple of days a go that appeared in The Times UK newspaper. Didn't think much of it at first but seeing it again it strikes me as more than a little offensive (and the fact the "artist" sees fit to parade his work on social media) and the reaction to it since has been bad to say the least.

Anyone who has a subscription to The Times Ireland - you basically help fund this which would be more in place in an edition of Punch rather than a modern newspaper.

Overall I just think it's disappointing in 2023 to see caricatures and bigotry like this in a British national newspaper (of record, no less).

As for Biden's visit, the jealousy, bitterness and supremacism on show from the British right media has been a real eye opener. This sums it up really.

(incidentally looks more like Prince Charles tbh)

(edit: was suppose to post in AH, if a mod wants to move feel free!)

Lawlesz

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1646427497137946630

This one was even worse, the sense of entitlement.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292438/the-drawing-in-the-times-uk

He "parades" his daily cartoon on twitter daily. I don't think his posting was unique for the Biden visit.

My opinion is let them off. We don't need to prove anything to anyone. More we whine, the more insecure we sound.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479860#Comment_120479860

Written by.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292438/the-drawing-in-the-times-uk

I think you are getting a little too sensitive. This is common practice in media across the world. Here are a few recent examples of the Irish press running much more offensive stereotypical caricatures of British people living in NI. When it was raised on another thread, most posters thought it was great fun and that unionists needed to lighten up. You will see the press regulator also had no problem with it. So lighten up

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/06/14/news/ian-knox-irish-news-cartoonist-vindicated-after-press-regulator-rejects-complaints-2741945/

Senature

I've been enjoying how horrified some of the British media are at Ireland and Irish affairs being given precedence over them this week.

When Brexit was voted in, I believed there was an underlying sense of denial in the UK of their place in the world order. They are no longer the superpower that they were in their colonial heyday, many just didn't and still don't realise it.

Many also have little awareness of the misery that millions across the world endured under their colonialism, including in Ireland. The perspective on this visit by Joe Biden is comical. Never mind the centuries of oppression and mass murder your country inflicted on it's neighbour, the real horror is that the US president is prioritising his relationship with that country over you for a few days...

While it is vital for peace, security and stability that political alliances and 'friendships' are prioritised, many British are yet to grasp that they are no longer 'in charge' and that outside the UK, nobody wants them to be. On this island, and within Europe, they are now outliers. That is what they voted for, and they cemented it with the farce of the negotiations to leave the EU.

The cartoon is without a doubt racist in nature, it would not be published if it were relating to an African or Asian country that was a former colony. But thankfully we are long past the days where this nonsense has any power over our society. Ireland has its own independent government and society, and our own international position and alliances, including with Britain. This rubbish drawing is simply a further reflection of their own sour grapes that the position of Britain as a falling star with waning influence has been projected in technicolor onto the world stage.

In that sense, I am glad it was published, it makes it clear how many are really feeling, and how the legacy of colonialism lives on, no matter how much it is denied. It didn't take much for the mask to slip now did it?

PokeHerKing

I'm loving the butthurt.

Cartoon is $hite anyway, looks more like Bush or Charlie and Biden doesn't drink.

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479952#Comment_120479952

I'm not sure why you believe the cartoon you are showing is much more offensive?

Are you aware that during British colonisation of ireland, cartoons depicting Irish people as stupid and ape-like were hugely popular in the UK. They greatly contributed to the popular view that Irish people required the civilisation the British were violently enforcing as they were to stupid / drunk / etc to manage their own affairs.

Racism requires one party to be in a dominant position to the other, with the support of legal or other systems. The British ruled the Irish during the period of those popular cartoons, they were part of the historical story of racism the Irish were subjected to under British rule.

Therefore, this cartoon is not simply humorous stereotyping, the roots of it are far more sinister than that.

ancapailldorcha

A British right wing rag owned by Murdoch has a low opinion of the Irish? Can't say I'm shocked.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479958#Comment_120479958

“I've been enjoying how horrified some of the British media are at Ireland and Irish affairs being given precedence over them this week”

Im surprised how horrified some of the Irish are at a Newspaper cation this week.

growleaves

I don't think it can be compared to Punch magazine.

In the old Punch the Irish were depicted as ape-like aggressors, that wouldn't be allowed today.

The dancing in a green suit is mildly politically incorrect. It's just a diddly-aye stereotype.

I think it'd be an overreaction to get angry.

That said sections of the British media must be fairly bored.

downcow

I thought this tweet I read just hits the mail on the head. Irish people need to think about this. You can’t have it both ways.

“You aren’t TIRED of this. You plaster the same caricature on your Paddy Wagons. You dress up as leprechauns on St Patrick’s Day and at rugby matches. Your shops on O’Connell Street groan under the weight of this tat. Spare us the faux outrage. Either it’s good fun or it’s not.”

and anyhow the dig is at Biden, not the Irish - unless of course you think he is Irish

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483169#Comment_120483169

Remind us how much time the President of the United States spent in your backwater? 18 hours? 10 of those asleep. And "your" Prime Minister got a rather embarrassing shove aside at the airport and was blessed as a guest of Biden at a 5 minute coffee in what looked like a store room. I think the geo-political positions on these islands are being understood more. Act dishonest and clownish and be treated like that.

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483169#Comment_120483169

You plaster the same caricature on your Paddy Wagons - What, where and when is this being plastered? By who?

You dress up as leprechauns on St Patrick’s Day - It's often tourists do this, not many Irish people at all. The overwhelming majority of Irish people are wearing their normal clothes on St Patrick's Day, sometimes including or adding something green, or with shamrocks etc. Also, so what if someone puts on a fancy dress costume on the day of a festival?

and at rugby matches - as above, overwhelming majority at matches wear normal clothes or sports tops, same as in all other countries

Your shops on O’Connell Street groan under the weight of this tat - I agree, it is tat. Tourist tat. It is not Irish people buying it. Same as the tourist rubbish for sales in cities across the world, just like all the Royal family/Union Jack/Tube etc tat for sale in London. A very small handful of businesses make money from it.

Overall, to me that tweet simply demonstrates that the person who wrote it does not know much about Irish people. They seem to be basing their view on the stereotypes, and a few people who are shown on tv at matches, precisely because they have dressed up.

Do you think that a cartoon depicting descendants of African, Indian or Pakistani people as ridiculous dancing drunk caricatures would be acceptable for publication in the UK?

BTW, I don't even think I'm too outraged, I think I'm not actually as outraged as I should be. I just don't feel like staying quiet this time.

Other people, who are not Irish, telling Irish people all the reasons why this is not or should not be offensive to them, demonstrates the problem. People are actually smart enough to know what they see, and know what they have been subjected to in the past, even the ridiculous, dancing, drunk Irish people.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483169#Comment_120483169

Dry your eyes.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483169#Comment_120483169

Do you seriously not get this? Seriously?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483311#Comment_120483311

I can only guess what you want me to get. Viewers will see different things in that cartoon. I see it as a go at Biden for thinking he is Irish and thinking he is dancing to their tune. I hear what people are saying on here about historical attitudes to the Irish, but tell me a people that do not have stereotypes thrown at them? If you paint yourselves as the jolly craicsters, who love their drink and fidlydee music, then don’t be surprised when some edjit draws a cartoon like this. Sure is only a bit of crack!

Thelonious Monk

Who cares. The posters on this site are always on about permanently offended PC snowflakes and now this stupid cartoon is seen as a problem.

TheValeyard

Leave them at it. If they want to stay in the past, let them. We've bigger more important things to sort out.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483656#Comment_120483656

And yet whenever anyone criticises unionists for their toxic stupidity, you're in hysterics. I've never painted myself as any sort of drunken craicster so your analogy is frankly daft.

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483656#Comment_120483656

As already stated in this thread, it's not a harmless, fun, stereotype. It is a throwback to a system of oppression and racism, violently imposed on Irish people, by the British.

Degrading cartoons depicting Irish people in a negative light helped maintain support for the inhumane rule of the British in Ireland. They were quite popular in the UK, and contributed to many British people having the opinion that Irish people are lesser beings than them. Less civilised, less educated, less intelligent, less capable etc. A view that remains among many, and that Irish people are well aware of.

It's actually this view that has the British media in such a spin over events this week. You don't need to look far to see it.

Comparisons with unionists are irrelevant. Unionists have never been forced to live under the laws of an Irish government for centuries against their will.

We need to drop the small man syndrome and start looking down our noses at the uk , inferior country people wise

morris dancing knob heads

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483169#Comment_120483169

If someone born in Ireland can claim to be British why can't someone of Irish descent claim to be Irish ?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479958#Comment_120479958

You need to think about what you are saying. Biden was on a visit to Ireland and he dropped in to the Uk for a few hours on his way. Of course Ireland would be his focus - that was the whole purpose of the trip.

I hear some saying Sunak only had a short time with him. Sunak didn’t even attend bidens only engagement in Uk at ulster university as he said he is meeting him four months in a row ie March, April, may and June so no need. You are reading far too much into this all

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485699#Comment_120485699

Really, I need to think about what I am saying. Me, a person who is posting on an Irish based message board is the one who needs to think about what I say about this, but according to you not the British media, which has influence around the world. How about yourself, do you think you need to think about what you are saying here, or is it just me?

What is it that I am saying that I need to think about?

I have replied to you several times on this thread, you have declined to respond to the points I have raised, and yet you declare that I need to think about what I am saying.

You have your view, I disagree. I have explained why in some depth. You have not really engaged, just told me I'm wrong. No real points, arguments or explanations from you as to why.

I agree it was a visit to Ireland, so the focus was on Ireland. That's precisely why the sh1tfit thrown by the British media in response is so ridiculous, and is the actual humour that has been published in the media about the visit, not that stupid, offensive, poorly drawn cartoon.

Finally, I never mentioned Sunak in any of my posts so not sure why you did in your reply.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485699#Comment_120485699

“and he dropped in to the Uk for a few hours on his way”

Shouldn’t you be aiming your ire at the DUP for that, because I’m sure he would have stayed a wee while longer if Stormont was functioning.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489094#Comment_120489094

No he wouldn’t. The whole thing was a self indulgent trip by an old man who has a romantic view of an Ireland his great great grandfather left 150 years ago. I’m amazed the US tax payer isn’t giving him more grief over this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489482#Comment_120489482

Er, yes he would. I’m sure his advisors and the State Dept would have advised him that this ‘romantic Ireland’ that you speak of doesn’t actually exist. He didn’t back Ireland’s position on corporation tax for example.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484037#Comment_120484037

anyone can claim to be anything but I thought anyone born in Ireland is Irish. As I understand anyone in the world who is wealthy can buy an Irish passport, so yes, I guess Biden could become Irish if he wished. He can also currently claim to be Irish, Martian or whatever, but he is American. He has Irish ancestry but I understand he has 4 times as much English ancestry So is it any wonder cartoons like that appear.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489094#Comment_120489094

Most people in ni think he stayed too long. If he wants to do selfies with mass murderers of the people of ni then he shouldn’t expect the red carpet. He couldn’t even follow protocol with his flags on his car. I think you are blaming the wrong people for this one.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489703#Comment_120489703

Well why could he not even bring himself to fly the flag of one part of the island but could the other. Of course he has fanciful romantic notions of ‘his homeland’.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490152#Comment_120490152

We've been through this before, Downcow. One part of the island doesn't have a flag; the other does. What else was the guy to do? It's not his fault that NI can't get it together to adopt a flag.

cheese sandwich

It was a stupid cartoon but hardly grossly offensive. Fintan O’Toole was having palpitations about it on Twitter - this is the guy who has made a great living since 2016 writing repeatedly that Brexit is the brainchild of racist idiot gammons. Not that I disagree, but if you’re going to throw shade constantly you need to be slightly less hysterical when the other side throw a bit back at you

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489703#Comment_120489703

Oh come on, he went chasing ghosts in Knock and visited places some of his ancestors were from, ancestors that were economic migrants that went off to colonise the new world

it was the equivalent of Leo going to India and visiting a few places in Mumbai where his granny was born and getting all teary eyed over it all at the tax payers expense.

cheese sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490180#Comment_120490180

It was the equivalent of one of those tours to the commonwealth that the British royals periodically go on.

Which, given the POTUS is basically an elected monarch, is fair enough

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490218#Comment_120490218

To a degree it is, although in many Commonwealth countries they will be visiting as the head of state of that country.

Usually State visit are carefully planned though and aren't a self indulgent nostalgic homecoming for some old guy who still thinks it is 1860.

Unless he is simply going over the top on the Irishness so he doesn't lose too many votes when he closes those tax loopholes he keeps talking about.

Hotblack Desiato

In reality it was the first shot in the 2024 election campaign, we were just the scenery.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490180#Comment_120490180

You're right. Maybe one day we'll be less sentimental about silly pageantry like the country next door.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490812#Comment_120490812

Remember when they had a convoy drive the crown through the centre of London?

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490812#Comment_120490812

Maybe next year he could be a judge at the Rose of Tralee, or maybe he would settle for a few hours staring at a statue of our Lady the beloved blessed mother of the most holy queen of angels, waiting for it to move?

It would make a nice change for a visitor to Ireland to not be dragged into a pub and a pint of Guinness shoved in front of them.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490850#Comment_120490850

Yes maybe. It still wouldn't beat having a king ride through London in a gold carriage while a large amount of people rely on food banks. Biden can be sentimental if he wants. Not my style really but a large proportion of his voters are of similar mindset. He also has elected as opposed to being coronated.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490892#Comment_120490892

and when he was elected, they had a big fancy inauguration ceremony despite people errr, relying on foodbanks

Just like the great expense the people of Mayo had to go to despite there being a homeless crisis.

We could do this all day, so I'm not quite sure why you chose to drag King Charles in to it. Well. I am actually, but never mind

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490980#Comment_120490980

Because a British newspaper draws Biden like a stereotype Irish man (as it exists in the head of Brexit voters) while the UK is going to be pulling a king around in a fairytale carriage. It's a lack of introspection at best.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490980#Comment_120490980

What expense did the people of Mayo have to go to?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491254#Comment_120491254

It's just good old fashioned English racism. Let's call it as it is. Back in the Brexit debate, they thought that India would just meekly accept whatever trade deal Empire 2.0 was going to offer.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491254#Comment_120491254

it was a fairly obvious piss take out of a president over doing the Irishness, or at least the American idea of being Irish

Biden couldn’t have tried harder unless he dressed up as a leprechaun and drank Guinness while watching cumly maidens dancing at the crossroads.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490147#Comment_120490147

You understand wrong, 12 out of 16 of his great great grandparents are Irish.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491423#Comment_120491423

Great and I'm doing a fairly obvious p1ss take of Brits complaining about being broke but tolerating a golden carriage pulling around a king.

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483910#Comment_120483910

Arer you being deliberately obtuse in an effort to feel faux offended?

1) The cartoon is not a depiction of 'Irish people', it's a depiction of an American president bedecking himself in paddywhackery because an election is coming up and he wants to play to a constituancy, 'oim Oirish, vote fur meeeeeeee!'. That's what is being mocked.

2) Yawn.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490150#Comment_120490150

Do you want Stormont up & running again? Me thinks you're happy with it not....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490980#Comment_120490980

"Just like the great expense the people of Mayo had to go to despite there being a homeless crisis."

What? It was free advertising that any region wanting to sell itself in the tourist market would die for.