No VAT on Solar PV installations (Supply and Install)

ECO_Mental

Good news....the Gov is going to abolish the VAT rate on Solar PV systems including supply and install. Along with the SEAI grant its a real no brainer to get PV now!!

I wonder does this include batteries as well??

VAT rate on supply and installation of solar panels to be abolished (thejournal.ie)

Gerry

I would highly doubt regarding batteries. They are looking at this from angle of decarbonisation targets, and getting a chunk more solar into the grid.

graememk

If it's part of the supply and fit, I dare say it will count.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434250#Comment_120434250

Batteries help smooth out the demand curve from the grid, lowering the dependency on higher emissions / rapid response gas-fired generators. Arguably they make a bigger contribution to cleaning the grid than a relatively small amount of residential grid export.

For over half a year, our 5kWh battery helps us to avoid most grid import during the 5pm to 7pm peak. For the other half, we use load shifting to move some of our grid demand overnight when demand is lowest and the %age of renewable generation is highest.

slave1

Well it's no good to all of us DIYers, we still have to pay VAT at 23%.

Hopefully installers won't end up pocketing via raising their prices but I have little faith in that end of the spectrum

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434353#Comment_120434353

Was just about to post the same thing. Of course they`ll pocket it.

Gerry

@markpb I agree with ya I'm just not sure they are thinking it through to that extent.

seai already removed batteries from grants.. arguably their perspective is different. we will see.

is DIY specifically excluded then?

carbuncle

As a self installer I have emailed Jennifer whitmore Sd td to raise the question In Regards to zero vat on own purchase of kit from wholesalers (whether Ireland, eu or non eu).

this eu directive to allow the reduction. Of vat was enacted in February 2022 - it allows member states to reduce vat to between zero and 5% not only on panels/inverters but also home storage batteries and heatpumps.

I got zero joy when contacting green td’s last year but Jennifer was on Newstalk discussing other renewables, I got in contact and she suggested this to the gov back in November - rejected she says.

not allowing zero vat on supply only for self installers is a double blow (if correct) as we of course don’t get the grant - a potential saving of up to €2400 for the government.

of it’s via seai installers only I doubt there will be any savings seen by the homeowner.

and of course from 1st June max inverter size is down by around 1kW so payback time goes up. If you fit the wrong inverter post end of may then it’s no grant or fit.

zero vat on supply only will benefit not only self installers but others who upgrade their system - for example, you only need a reci electriciation to upgrade your inverter from non hybrid to hybrid, why would you need an seai installer to do this?

we have not been told the zero vat is on supply and install only, just interpreting it from press releases - there may still be time to have supply only included.

it may be worth people contacting their tds about it. Jenifer whitmore is aware of the issues and supports zero vat for self install. Many more people could afford a €6,000 self install compared to €10 to €12 for an seai one thus more installs which is better for all.

I had no joy with our green tds. One chap knew nothing of solar pv, not very encouraging.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434353#Comment_120434353

Same

I'm guessing they'll pocket it themselves, PV panels are actually cheap. Same gear being sold on AliExpress for very cheap:

https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-photovoltaic-panel.html

I know a guy who goes to Hong Kong every year for electrical/tech homewares convention. He order containers of things like smart light bulbs, switches, smart sockets, etc and then sells them to the likes of B&Q, Woodies, etc for double what it cost him. They then sell it for three times the price they bought it off him.

Problem is a you a person to sign a form to say it's safe, that signature is many thousands of euro

Mickeroo

Price wont be long going up by (a totally coincidental) 23% because of "inflation" I'm sure.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434476#Comment_120434476

Now now, it's only going to be 13.5 😂

DC999

Lot of negativity here. The gov is doing the only part it can on the VAT, to scrap it. salute that. That’s all they control. It’s sending a positive message that they are supporting home owners who invest. Between the 2.4k grant and this, it deffo helps.

Listen, if some companies want to bend the rules they will find a way. The world has been like that since we climbed out of the water. But not everyone is like that. If you think your supplier has ‘nicked’ the VAT, get a quote somewhere else. We can all ‘walk with our feet’ to another supplier

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435114#Comment_120435114

Te govt could do plenty more. They could start by forming a public company to install these panels rather than leave it to the private sector

Guarantee you the base price price of solar panels in this country will be going up the day after the VAT is removed

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435114#Comment_120435114

You make fair points but scrapping VAT across all PV equipment for any purchaser would be more comprehensive, limiting it to trade accounts is not contusive to dropping the cost for all

Genghis

Very keen to know the implementation date of this measure.

As mentioned on the other thread I am about to get installed (starting this week, likely complete post Easter), so I am at deposit paid stage but some weeks pre-final invoice. Timing is of the essence!

I gather there is a finance bill to be debated in the Dáil, and removing VAT on solar forms part of it. It will obviously pass through the Dáil this week, but whats not clear so far is when 0% VAT will apply from. All news reports seem to be paraphrasing of the original Irish Examiner article, which was not very clear on implementation dates, etc.

I figure there cannot really be a long lead in, as no one would do any solar installation pending that date. While I seem to remember VAT changes on fuel and hospitality were changed reasonably quickly I am not that familiar with how implementing a VAT change like this is usually done.

Would love to hear of anyone who is given by an installer a quote (or re-quote) or a final invoice showing 0% VAT.

carbuncle

I mentioned above I contacted green tds last year about the vat reduction, available to be impLemented by member states since February 2022. I got a very poor response .

an hour ago I received an email from one of the greent tds letting me know they had been working hard and supporting the zero vat implementation and they had remembered I had emailed.

i asked if he could clarify:

1. if zero Vat would apply only to installs performed by seai registered installers or if supply only would be included
2. when will the zero vat policy be implemented
3. are home storage batteries and heat pumps included as per the eu directive

i will report back.

it was mentioned above that this is good even if it is only on supply and install. For me and my flat roof I can buy a 6kw system for just over €5k ex vat. Vat is €1,150. The cheapest price I got to supply and install was over €10,600 inc grant and vat and that’s with the routing done through the roof for cables and very short cable runs.

I will have to pay an electrician so that needs to be added but if vat was zero on supply I could get the job done for €6k total and that’s without the government having to give me €2,400 in grants.

I am not suggesting grants for self install but for many like me the install is easy enough - personally I can afford €6k but not €11k .

self installs cost the government zero in grants, reducing vat to zero for supply only will encourage competition and increase installs .

also what about upgrades? Changing inverters to hybrids or adding a few panels. These are easy enough jobs for A local roofer/electrician - it starts to become expenses when 23% vat is accounted for. Who would use an seai installer to change an inverter just to get zero vat.

on vat I did not think there was a special rate of 13.5% for solar installs . I think normal vat rules apply and that the installers should charge either 23% on hardware and 13.5% on labour (as per Most garages) or they can use the two thirds rule as my company does - if labour is two thirds or more of the total bill then vat is 13.5% on the total bill, if parts are

more than one third then it’s 23% on the total.

Munster Blogger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435636#Comment_120435636

My understanding of VAT rules and I’m by no means an expert but the date the VAT applies is the date of supply of service and not the invoice date unless vat registered.

I had mine installed last week. Feeling a little bitter as I don’t expect this will be back dated.

jonnythefox

When do you think they will implement the VAT reduction?

Orebro

Why the hell wouldn’t they zero the VAT on panels etc off the shelf as opposed to making it available via installers only? What exactly do they think self installers are going to do with solar equipment they purchase that wouldn’t deserve the zero VAT?

Gerry

Theres unwritten narrative and assumptions at play here that.. diying things like this is not to be encouraged. Apart from Vat, theres also trade discount to discourage eejits.

Joe public should work harder and save up enough shekels to pay the professionals 80-120% over the odds. I'm assuming a model where a reci inspects and does the consumer board side of things.

This doesn't take into account many things beyond the pure financial end of it.

That Joe Public may actually want to save his hard earned money for other things.

Joe public may have some of the skills and experience but not all, having solar installs as one stop shops is not helpful.

The trade particularly when times are well dont want to touch awkward jobs.. or will charge more over the odds for them.

If we wanted to reassure about standards and safety, more inspections could be carried out, even without a grant.

But there's no will to change any of this. It was mentioned above that the state doing solar could be an option..

But the state seems reluctant to take any active part in housebuilding or retrofits.

One thing it could do is offer low interest loans for retrofits

There are other measures, facilitate diy. and encourage fit only as well as supply and fit.

The grant itself needs to be restructured, as we know its been used as a topup by installers

carbuncle

I mentioned above I had an email from a free td Monday and responded by asking a few questions.

he called me this afternoon and we had a good hour long chat about various things renewable, specifically zero vat on supply only and that max inverter size will be probably be limited to 5kw by 1st June.

he agrees regarding zero vat on supply and is off to find out and will get back to me. He is an ex electrician and was most surprised re the reduction of inverter output to 25 amps - I sent him the link and he is also off to check that.

he did mention he has had a bit of contact re deposits paid now and zero vat and he also wants to clarify that.

the bill is due to be signed by the end of next week.

he will clarify as soon as he can re the implementation date of zero vat and will try and push for zero vat on supply only if that is not currently included.

carbuncle

That was meant to be green td in my last post.

Joe57

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437022#Comment_120437022

It won't be introduced until July.

radiofoot

@Joe57 can you elaborate on this please? Where did you see this?

radiofoot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441759#Comment_120441759

Sorry - with a reference to the post I am replying to

@Joe57 can you elaborate on this please? Where did you see this

rothai

In the irish examiner it says it now brings the average cost of an install down to 5600euro, really? Realistically what could you get for that kind of money?

carbuncle

On when this will be introduced the green td I spoke to yesterday did not know — he said he would find out and get back to me.

I am not saying it will not be July, just that this chap I spoke to did not know - really you would have hoped that all green td’s at least would have been given full details before the press release.

if it is July then people who could install before the end of may have a choice - pay vat and be able to install a 6kW inverter or wait until zero vat comes in but be limited to probably a 5kw inverter due to esb changes effective from 1st June .

the td was not aware of this esb change either and is off to find out why, as I said this amounts to a 20% reduction in what can be produced unless inverter manufacturers can change their 6kw inverters to output a max of 25 amps - this would have to be done to the esb satisfaction of course so a simple setting change may not be enough for them if it is easy to reverse

he was aware that some people will have paid deposits now where vat was on the invoice but they may be waiting for a few months before the instal is done - that needs clarification that he is seeking as he has had questions from others on this .

it’s all a bit messy as usual.

I suspect that the greens in the know knew of the upcoming esb change and rushed out the good news re zero vat to try and offset the bad news re max inverter size.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443176#Comment_120443176

The inverter limit of 5Kw is a mountain out of a molehill. Sure we all want bigger inverters (I'm looking at you unkel over there! LOL) but in truth it's rare that you have your inverter operating at that kind of wattage for an extended period of time. You'd have to have a bright sunshine day, with more than 6Kwp in panels, with the sun facing "end on" or nearly end on to the panels, can't be a hot august day either, so likely to be May/June. You'll might get it (the 6kw) for an hour or two and then it'll drop back under due to the sun moving around the sky. In which case your 5Kw inverter would have given you probably 96-97% of the production for the day anyway, on a day where you have more power than you know what to do with. Clipping really isn't anything to be worried too much about.

That said, if you have the opportunity to get the 6kw in.....it's something I'd do myself, but in reality, the difference in production for an entire year is low single digits in % generation.

radiofoot

July is mentioned in an article I just read. I haven’t linked it as it mentions a specific company and not sure if that would be against forum rules

Ubbquittious

Will it be possible to order panels from supplier in another EU country and get the 0%?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443812#Comment_120443812

probably on one more competent than ours, yes

unkel

A Green party TD that has no idea about solar PV, in 2023? The party as a whole promoting diesels because they are clean because they have low CO2 emissions? I've heard it all now. Perhaps some of us in here should take over that party and show it what being green is all about.

radiofoot

https://www.thejournal.ie/solar-panels-ireland-2-6037579-Apr2023/

From May 1st, according to this article

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444038#Comment_120444038

The greens were always and remain to this day, a pool of misguided but well intended fools, disconnected from the real world. Usually living in leafy south dublin.

I'm not an environmentalist and all the greens seem to do is implement stupid cost taxes that penalize the poor and or the working class (the real working class, those that are up to work in the morning). Therefore I would never vote for them anyway.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443812#Comment_120443812

This actually opens up some very interesting possibilities. For example if a more level headed country lowers the VAT rate for all buyers (including DIY) then you can potentially purchase from that country without paying any VAT

You'll obviously have to handle the cost of shipping to Ireland

Also if that company sells over €10k of stuff to Ireland in a calendar year then they need to apply Irish VAT

However, if one were to travel to said country and collect the items and transport them home then the seller's country VAT applies regardless

Depending on the cost of the ferry and transport, might be cheaper than paying VAT here, particularly since panels are often cheaper in Europe

In other words, does anyone have a Model X and a trailer to spare? 😁

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443255#Comment_120443255

You and I have an E\W split so we don't get the output highs of S facing. So the smaller inverter size is deffo less an impact on E\W. Or on smaller systems.

My 5kWp system gets to 4kW at the highest and even that is a short spike.

oaklands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443812#Comment_120443812

FYI - I recently ordered a micro-inverter on eBay from Germany. The posting stated that the 0% German VAT only applied to private purchases from within Germany and that normal VAT would be applied otherwise.

However, it seems they didn't apply any VAT!

unkel

@the_amazing_raisin - "if that company sells over €10k of stuff to Ireland in a calendar year then they need to apply Irish VAT"

I didn't know the threshold was that low. Every day is a school day!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444290#Comment_120444290

Tbh, I think most companies are ignoring it, only the big players like Amazon seem to enforce it

There's a list of exceptions and perhaps solar panels are in it, but I'm not bothered looking through the document 😁

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444141#Comment_120444141

Yup DC999, I do have a E/W split, although I recently upgraded to 6.5Kwp in panels now and I (very briefly) hit the limit of my 5kw inverter, for about 10 mins last week. It maxes out at 5637 watts exactly. In fact if you DO hit the limit with a E/W due to the profile of the curve being "flatter" than a pure south, your actually more impacted by clipping......but even still it's generally minor impact.

The above would be a south install, and you can see the amount of area being clipped is actually fairly small compared to the area underneath it. Also remember your not taking about 1x specific day, but the production of the installation for the entire year. Most of the time, it's not May, with the sun directly overhead on a cool'ish day. More likely the middle of Sept and it's cloudy and your inverter is struggling to make 2kw :-)

That said, given the choice I'd want a 6Kw myself, but in truth it's not THAT big a deal.

SD_DRACULA

Not seeing how it will be possible to enforce the 5kwh limit except for the SEAI grant stuff.

ESBN will have to pry my 8kw inverter from my cold dead hands 🤣

I suppose it could be worse, the idiots up North have them limited to what, 3.6kw?

I'm sure there's a reason (🐂💩 ESBN infrastructure for example if every house ends up exporting) but don't see any issue if you use it all

bullit_dodger

Might be going a little off the original topic of VAT, but yeah, likewise I think very difficult to enforce it. All existing 6Kw inverters out there are "grandfathered in" and I -think- that most inverter makes/models will apply a config to the devices which would be explicit for the Irish market. i.e. my suspicion is that they'll be the same physical device as the 6kw but tweaked with the "Eirgrid config" to only allow 5kw export, if you know what i mean.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444581#Comment_120444581

Six, not eight. Just tippex the first 8 from the 8.8 and turn it into a 5. For 5.8. Job done 😂

Wiggy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437022#Comment_120437022

According to this press release on gov.ie, from May 1st:

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/977ed-ministers-mcgrath-ryan-announce-a-zero-rate-of-vat-for-the-supply-and-installation-of-solar-panels-for-private-dwellings-from-may-1st-2023/

Hellrazer

I had a thought today and not sure if this would work out.

Theoretically I could setup a company purely to avail of the zero rate Vat on renewables - just in case they wont deal with the public.

I register a domain name and apply for a CRO number.

Dont need to apply for a VAT number as the threshold is €75,000 in turnover for suppliers of goods only.

If it worked out do you lot think the solar suppliers would supply me? Its all above board and would be pay as you go - no credit needed or wanted.

Would anyone be interested in buying from the solar supply companies using the legit companies details of I did set it up?

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446472#Comment_120446472

Businesses still pay vat at point of purchase.

Eg when the installer buys panels, they buy them with 23% vat. Anything they sell is charged vat at the appropriate rate

When the vat return time comes, you add up the vat charged from all your sales vs vat from purchases. The difference is paid to/from revenue.

Buying from Europe, you don't pay VAT at point of sale but you do still need a valid vat number.

Gerry

How much could I expect to sell 3kw non hybrid for? I'd like to replace it with a 5kw hybrid.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446472#Comment_120446472

You can't claim back VAT if you don't generate any :-)

Basically you charge VAT on sales, then you can deduct VAT from your purchases. The resulting amount has to be at least zero (and will even then raise a red flag)

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446627#Comment_120446627

Make / model, how old?

For comparison, I bought a 6kW 4G Solis a month ago or so on adverts for €200, but that was a steal.

My mate has a brand new never opened 5.5kW Sunsynk hybrid inverter coming up for sale in the next day or two (he upgraded to the 8.8kW). The trade price on these is €1660 incl VAT, will put it up for a few hundred under that at about €1400 (retail is probably about €2000 on these)

Tow

No point in factoring in the VAT anymore. Solar supplies must be far from delighted, as everyone holds off buying until the zero rating comes in.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446733#Comment_120446733

Unless I have misunderstood the plans, zero VAT is only on (already overpriced) complete installs from SEAI approved installers. It doesn't apply to you or me buying parts like inverters or solar panels for self install. No doubt this zero VAT will only lead to higher prices from those installers. It always does.