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Match thread Mexicans v Wildlings (Leinster v Ulster) Kick off 5.30pm 1/4/23



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,354 ✭✭✭✭salmocab

    I don’t know it seems to me someone is pretty bitter over something

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg

    We've seen backs as the jumper at the lineout before. But I'm not sure I've ever seen one be the lifter.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    How many pro clubs would you expect Ireland to have?

    France - population 67.5m and 347k adult male rugby players have 30 professional clubs.

    England - population 55.9m and 138k adult male players have 23 professional clubs.

    Your argument would have some modicum of sense to it if it were the case that Leinster just bought in their success with a team full of expensive international mercenaries like Toulon (or to a lesser extent Saracens), but it couldn’t be further from the case with Leinster.

    There is scarcely a team in European rugby that produces so much of its own first team squad I’d wager.

    Lot of ridiculous whining posts having shots at Leinster today - you love to see it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,557 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

    Why would anyone think that a salary cap would work? How many lads from Leinster would be keen to play at another province? So, to make the other provinces good, Leinster get hosed?

    How many players would stay? Why would VDF play for a province he has no connection to. Why would he not look for more money... in France. Seriously, it's drivel. The let's give x the first picks of the best young players from Leinster, to make the other provinces better.

    The calls for provincial players to play for Ireland one minute and the next, give us your best young players.

    It's a lot more than the players for Leinster, imo. It's the coaching, too. Prior to Lancaster arriving, where were the calls for salary caps and Leinster's first borns? Look at Connacht! That defense couldn't stop a bus! That's Leinster's fault! Munster hired a buffoon and then tried to keep him! They kept Archer and let Ryan walk. They let Cronin walk too. Supporters saying" Kleyn must be selected for Ireland" and then he's shown up yesterday. The calls for Coombes and then he's fairly anonymous yesterday. Really!

    Stu leaves after this season! Sexton too! The calls for salary caps etc will disappear. Without Lancaster, Leinster will not be as good, imo. Hand wringing about Leinster one minute and banging on about your own players for the national team the next.

  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    Not bitter at all, just highlighting a breakdown of the type of tries Leinster score. I went through the highlights of both Racing, both Gloucester and the Sharks game and there is only one long range setpiece strike play from far out.

    There was only one try (maybe two) I could idenitify as that type of score. And that was from 37 tries. The vast, and I say this solemnly, vast majority are scored from close in like 5M or within the 22. It’s not attractive rugby.

    Granted there is a lot that goes on in the middle of the game outside of tries being scored but the type of try we score the majority of the time from that sample of games is 5M pick and go, tap penalty 5M out, pass off 5M ruck to winger/back, break inside the 22 or lineout maul. I’d say 75% is that type of try.

    The rest are on the break or turnover ball. Rarely if ever is there set moves with strike plays and it’s not attractive rugby.

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    There is few things more ironic than a South African accusing any other team of playing unattractive rugby.

  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    Who said I was South African. I taught in South Africa fyi. Big difference.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    Except none of that is actually true. In fact most of it is bordering on conspiracy theory nonsense.

  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    How so? Most American leagues have one and they are the standard bearer for professional sports. When it is clear there is an institutionalised competitive advantage most sophisticated sports take action to level the playing field. Leinster’s wage bill is much more than the other provinces, can you explain how that prevents a one sided league? It ensures prolonged success due to financial dominance.

  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney

    How do you know what Leinster's wage bill is?

    How are teams going to afford the likes of Snyman, Fekitoa, Kitshoff, Vermeulen etc. with a salary cap?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    How do you know what Leinsters wages bill is? How do you know it’s more than the other provinces? Do you want to share the figures?

    Who’s on more money, Billy Burns or Ross Byrne. Doris or Vermeulen. Snyman or Ryan?

    Leinster have about half of the central contracts, yet supply two thirds of the national team. Leinster produce more players than the rest of the provinces combined. They also produce plenty of players the other provinces benefit from. Since every other province has Leinster players in their starting team.

    Introducing a draft system for one country in a league containing 5 countries. Would be the definition of stupidity. It would also inhibit other provinces duty to produce talent and ultimately dilute each provinces sense of identity. Eventually ending up as Leinster A, B, C & D.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,354 ✭✭✭✭salmocab

    American sports are not the standard bearer for sports. They do some things well but that’s it. They also have fairly captive sports with theirs being the only top level option for the top players. They can’t go abroad and play their chosen sport at the top level, unlike in rugby or soccer

  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    We don’t know what Leinster or the other provinces (bar Ulster) pay their players because they don’t publish their accounts. So it’s all guesswork but if we were to pay the market rates for each provinces players you could assume Leinster’s wage bill is much higher. Add to that the central contracts are paid for and e.g. Connacht and Ulster (bar Stockdale) have none, you have a gulf in fairness.

    You say it would be stupidity to level the playing field because it would “inhibit the other provinces duty to produce talent”? Explain that please. If you want to be competitive and don’t have the structures other provinces/teams have there is a need to recruit outwards. Until the structures get put in place.

    As for dilution of identity, I’ll leave that one with you but in the modern world closed shops and expanding outwards using internal talent is primitive. You open up and create an organisation not based on local talent like all the U.S. organisations do. It’s primitive to be closed down to outside contributions/talent.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    Leinster currently have 6 of the 13 central contracts. Just under half. Munster have 4, Ulster have 2 and Connacht have 1. On top of the central contracts Munster also have Snyman who is paid for by an outside interest. As far as I am aware, Leinster, Ulster and Munster all get the same funding from the IRFU.

    If Leinster players are being redistributed by some draft system. Then there is no imperative for other provinces to bother producing their own talent. Or it would certainly reduce the necessity to do so.

    Do you really think people in Cork or Limerick would want to turn out to support a team with 8-10 Leinster players starting in it? The whole reason the provinces have worked so well for the IRFU is the local identity. It’s very important to note how well it has worked too. Compare it to Wales, Scotland or even England. Irish rugby has thrived because the provinces have thrived. It’s the foundation for all the success of the Irish team, since professionalism.

  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    I notice you haven’t addressed my points just reiterated your own points. There is a disparity and “as far as you know” you know nothing. If market rates are applied the Leinster wage bill is far higher. That needs to change.

    Local sportsmen will exist in Connacht Ulster and Munster even if there is a redistribution of talent and they already do, despite the many Leinster imports each province has. A draft system isn’t what I’m suggesting, just a fair distribution of income. And thereby a levelling of the playing field.

    Your talk about identity and duty to produce talent are primitive and outdated concepts and in many cases already don’t apply to the provinces. There is many Leinster players in each province and it hasn’t diluted identity or reduced their willingness to produce locally. There is a gulf in the money given to Leinster as opposed the other provinces and stadium redevelopments aside, it interferes with free and fair competition.

  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭letsbefair

    Sour grapes, it’s a bit like in the GAA when they wanted to split Dublin in 2. The other provinces need to up their game like Kerry did.

  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    It’s not sour grapes to insist monopolies don’t form in sport. There are laws against it in business there should also in sport. Central contracts being a prime example.

  • Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat

    Salary caps and one owner of four clubs just doesn't work, so conversations around that is a waste of time.

    There could be some very severe unforseen consequences for the other three provinces if something like that was to happen

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,354 ✭✭✭✭salmocab

    haven't heard that mentioned in a while oddly. It’s almost like it was just sour grapes and when they were no longer winning everything it was no longer peoples big thing with regards fairness. Odd that.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Bobb Sapp

    Fear mongering. Sounds like a threat. I’m in charge of the finances we wouldn’t want Connacht going bust type of thing? Shallow and low life sort of thing to suggest. There is a disparity, it should be addressed. And as for conversations around it being a waste of time because there is one owner, they can and do sound like “it’s my ball you’re not playing if I don’t want you to” type of arguments. Fortunately, there is laws against this sort of defensive mindset.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    You haven’t made any points. You made a claim based on absolutely no information at all. Just your clearly biased assumption. You don’t know what the market rates are. You don’t know who is being paid what. You assume there isn’t a fair distribution of income. So far you haven’t made an argument at all. You have just made statements and added a confirmation bias to them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer

    Every poster is of course free to discuss whatever they like, but can I humbly suggest people don't waste their time and don't clog up the thread with this nonsense?

  • Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat

    "Salary caps and one owner of four clubs just doesn't work, so conversations around that is a waste of time."

    I'll repeat that for those who are slow on the uptake.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof

    Shallow and low life sort of thing to suggest.

    Mod: Abusing posters in this fashion is against the charter.

    Threadbanned for 2 weeks.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,557 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof

    Mod: If you have an issue with a post report it. You’ll note you didn’t report any posts today so are in no position to criticise moderation on here.

    And if you have an issue with moderation, take it to PM.

    Any more criticism of moderation on thread will receive an infraction. You’re around here long enough to know better.

  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭roverjoyce

    You can't play abroad if your Irish though is the problem

    US sports are the fairest sports in the world

    Their distribution of talent to weaker teams by drafts and ability to even teams by salary cap and free agency is the best in the world

    Look at Cincinnati, they finished bottom 1 year and got the best QB in the draft and within 2 years where in the final 4

    What if Harry Byrne had gone to Ulster, could he have 30 URC games played (injuries permitting) not sitting on the bench

    Look at Dan Sheehan & Ronan Kelleher for an example

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,354 ✭✭✭✭salmocab

    Of course you can. Lots of Irish players play abroad. That American system works because the sports themselves are pretty insular, they are played really only at the top level in one place.

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Harry Byrne has played 42 times for Leinster - which is 12’ games more than Jack Crowley (7 months younger than him) has played for Munster.

    I don’t know what your point is with Sheehan and Kelleher either. Both get plenty of game time, Sheehan arguably too much. It’s a squad game nowadays and all evidence would suggest right now that these players are best served remaining at Leinster