Is this a valid acceptable reason to end a tenancy?

Marie1976

My brother and his partner are planning major construction work on their house. It will be gutted and the builder is advising that when the work starts they will have to live elsewhere during the work.

I have a rented house that I was considering selling some time so I'm wondering can I serve the tenant notice to allow my brother and partner use it and then sell it when the construction work is finished.

Is this allowed? They are only in the planning stage so it could be next spring.

dennyk

Yes, your brother needing to move into the property is one of the valid reasons for terminating a Part 4 tenancy (for now). Just make certain you follow all of the notice requirements to the letter, or else your notice may be deemed invalid and you might end up having to start the whole process over again, significantly extending the time your tenant can remain in the property.

You would have to offer the property back to the previous tenant if it were to become available to rent again within 12 months of the termination date, but if you don't rent out the property again and decide to sell it instead, that wouldn't be required.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371722#Comment_120371722

Thanks dennyk. It will be a genuine reason because they are ripping his place apart Dermot Bannon style and the builder is even relocating the sewerage system.

One thing has me puzzled though. I need to give a declaration saying the house needs to be used by my brother for lets say 1/1/24-31/12/24. What happens if I need to spend some of 2024 fighting to gain possession. I can't really write indefinitely on the declaration because it may be 9 months or it may be 18 months depending on numerous factors. Thanks.

dontmindme

On the Notice of Termination that you need to serve to the tenant, you need to declare your reason for ending the tenancy along with the other required information. You do not need to declare when or how long your brother needs the house for. You need to look at the RTB website.

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372221#Comment_120372221

Where a landlord requires the property for their own use or for use by a family member, a Statutory Declaration must accompany the Notice of Termination confirming the intended occupant's identity and (if not the landlord) their relationship to the landlord and the expected duration of the occupation. The Statutory Declaration must also confirm that the landlord is required to offer a tenancy to the tenant if the dwelling is vacated within a period of 12 months from the termination date.  

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372233#Comment_120372233

ah yes...I need to read that site myself!...There seems to be similar but different information or with some information omitted on multiple pages.

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/landlords-grounds-for-ending-a-tenancy

As regards your original question, surely then you'll just specify a duration that will well cover the actual period your brother needs the property for? There's no penalty for him ending his occupancy early.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372264#Comment_120372264

I am wondering what happens if half or all of this time is used on RTB hearings etc?

I think it's a terrible thing to do to a standing tenant.

I do understand the reasons for doing it but I think your brother should be doing his own thing.

If your tenant is or has caused no issues then I wouldn't be bothering them!

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371722#Comment_120371722

As far as I know, you need to offer it to a previous tenant only, if they requested it in 28 days after receiving the notice.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372336#Comment_120372336

The OP has stated they also want to sell. They are perfectly within their rights to dispose of an asset when they want to.

Helping out their brother has just brought the decision forward.

Private renting is not a house for life.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372336#Comment_120372336

Thanks for your comment. I am planning to sell at some stage any way and I know the tenant is not interested in buying.

To be fair I'm trying to do things within what's allowed hence the reason I'm asking. If it's not allowed I'd accept this.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372365#Comment_120372365

I have asked on a number of occasions if the tenant plans to purchase any time but the reply has always been negative.

I would have enormous evidence to back up the genuine reason for ending the tenancy if I needed it.

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372279#Comment_120372279

RTB hearings?? You're expecting the current tenant to over-hold?

SwimClub

It's your property you can serve notice as per the lease, having family use as a reason is probably much better than selling at the moment because they are introducing more and more red tape to prevent people selling. I'd absolutely get legal advice from a solicitor in issuing the notice, it is well worth the money spent to hopefully avoid issues.

You are not personally responsible for housing tenants outside of the terms of the lease you signed, any suggestions that this is a terrible thing to do are completely out of order. I would avoid any discussion of offering to sell the place to the tenants, anything you say or do will just be used against you in the system, it is completely one sided.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372399#Comment_120372399

I don't really get the whole thing about a property being potentially offered to a tenant, surely that option is open to them when the property is put up for sale anyway? ie anyone can bid on it?? What it suggests to me is that the tenant (generally, not just this tenant, but any tenant) is being told they are the only buyer, it could limit (would very likely limit) what an owner could achieve in price for their property? I understand that a tenant or tenants could be told the property is going for sale and they are invited to make bids, but if they are presently in the property, it runs the risk that it will undermine other bidders, specifically if the tenant loses out, where they then could refuse to leave the property.

If anything, measures to remove tenants should be strengthened especially where a tenant has been given the correct notice (no gaming the system for typographical errors AND where a tenant has stopped paying rent OR cant pay and wont meet to make arrangements to pay or explain the situation/how it can be rectified. I had this situation where a tenant offered to buy my rental property, and when I told them the starting price the agent was giving me, they scoffed/baulked at the idea, their opinion was one that I was trying to screw them over, when in reality I was offering it to the market to see what it could achieve.

Id be all for having some kind of controls (some measures that reflect inflation and overall prices in an area and for the same properties nationally) where it is applied across the board for all private and principal homes/residences because imo substantial price increases dont favour sellers where they only end up paying substantial increases when buying. OR at the least a more transparent purchase system with protections for buyers, The idea a selling agent can just keep asking for any amount is ridiculous and no protection for a buyer to know if they are even bidding against a real person (someone will come along and argue that protections exist, but they appear to be self monitored. The only way to ensure any system is accurate and honest is to have independent confirmation, equally the idea of a seller being limited to just one buyer is ridiculous too.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372452#Comment_120372452

Well it's quite possible given the current housing situation. Would you not agree?

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372488#Comment_120372488

Thank you for your reply.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372488#Comment_120372488

I second this, absolutely get a solicitor to draft the letter and advice, money well spent and could sacpve you a fortune in the long run

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372490#Comment_120372490

I think that poster was referring to the fact that if the property is not in fact sold, and is going to be rented again, the previous tenant must be given first refusal.

Nothing to do with having to offer it to them if selling.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372638#Comment_120372638

Thanks for your reply. I will make sure to do this. Do you have any idea what this might cost?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372382#Comment_120372382

I'm not suggesting that you are wrong in doing what you are doing but I just wouldn't agree with what you are doing!

Victor

"I can't really write indefinitely on the declaration because it may be 9 months or it may be 18 months depending on numerous factors." - you're renovating a house, not building a metro.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372697#Comment_120372697

No-one asked you!

Edit:

OP only asked if it was allowable.

Not for your moral judgement - and you have no knowledge of OP's personal circumstances so you are in no position to judge.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372697#Comment_120372697

Yes some people may see it as unfair but I do intend to sell at some stage and I know the tenant is not interested in purchasing.

It would be a major help to family and if I'm correct the government will have a responsibility to find accommodation for the tenant if they can't or won't find a solution. My brother won't have this guarantee.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372666#Comment_120372666

Marie197612:03 pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372365#Comment_120372365

I have asked on a number of occasions if the tenant plans to purchase any time but the reply has always been negative.

I would have enormous evidence to back up the genuine reason for ending the tenancy if I needed it.

I replied to this post where the poster is stating they asked the tenant if they intended to purchase and they dont intend to going by the OPs reply. My own reply to their post/quote is very clearly in my post/references it. Also, it was another poster/s that highlighted that the original tenant must be given first refusal, IF it was being re-let within 12 months.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372336#Comment_120372336

Marie didn't buy a house to provide accommodation for life to her tennant. Did you Oscar buy a house to provide housing for life to a stranger??

When do people will understand that!! The owner of an asset should be in their right to do what they seem fit with their asset.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372711#Comment_120372711

Yes it does happen some renovations to take longer than expected don't you think? Or are you a builder and know different.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372746#Comment_120372746

I suppose it's highlighting the fact to the tenant that they are thinking of selling. If the tenant wanted first refusal also gives the tenant a fairly informal heads up that the landlord plans on selling in the short-medium term timeframe.

If I was a tenant and landlord came to me asking if I wanted to buy the property, I'd be thinking that the writings on the wall here and sooner or later I'll be moving/given notice. Or I love this house let's see how much I can save and start talking to the bank regarding mortgages etc. I know lots of people who bought their house off the landlord.

So the tenant can't say they've been blindsided with this information and it's all out of the blue.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372711#Comment_120372711

I'm not sure I get your point. I don't know what to put as the expected during. If the builder says 6 months and I write this down what happens if this time is lost with RTB processes?

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372769#Comment_120372769

Well I know we had work done ourselves before and after being promised a two month lead time it was over four months before the contractor showed up.

Princess Calla

I think you might be overthinking this abit.

Your brother will have an agreed start date with the builder. This is your guide. If it changes and the builder is a month behind or whatever that's beyond your control.

So depending on your circumstances if you can afford the mortgage without rent. I would probably have their moving out date a month or two before your brother needs it....this gives you wiggle room to clean the house , get rid of unwanted furniture. Allows your brother time to move into the house rather than everything going down to the wire.

It also means you will know 100% the tenants are gone.

If they do decide to overhold it will put your brother into a stressful position in finding a place to stay.... personal items into storage etc. If they know a month or two in advance that the tenant is overholding it will make things less stressful than finding out last minute.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372831#Comment_120372831

It isn't about how long it is actually going to take (you've no idea), it's about what the RTB are looking for in the question and you can only mess up the answer in that regard and have them tie you up in red tape.

You need to be very careful in any communication with the tenant and RTB.

I'd just get a solicitor to fill it out so that it is in your interest and not whatever the RTB are looking for, which will be you never taking back possession or selling your property.

They have introduced a very complicated notice process, many suspect it is to deliberately make owners make mistakes to invalidate their notice.

I heard of solicitor help with a standard notice issuance costing around 350, I don't know in your case if they might charge a bit more as it's non-standard.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372873#Comment_120372873

Thanks. I notice that the landlord must give the name of the person going to be using the house and for a duration. I'm not required to give the reason or nature of why the house is needed so is there technically anything to prevent me putting indefinitely to cover any potential red tape delays?

I will ask a solicitor but what's your view?

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372918#Comment_120372918

I just wouldn't know what to put, it's a minefield, I'd go to a solicitor that does a lot of notices and has experience.

Bear in mind tenants may seek advice from threshold who offer free legal advice on circumventing notices.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373016#Comment_120373016

Thanks yes everything appears to be stacked against the landlord and if a foot is placed wrong they are punished severely.

I'm not surprised to see people selling up as it's very one sided.

Claw Hammer

Section 35 of the Residential tenancies Act

(4) In  paragraph 4  of the Table the reference to a member of the landlord’s family is a reference to any spouse  F103 [ , civil partner within the meaning of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 ] , child, stepchild, foster child, grandchild, parent, grandparent, step parent, parent-in-law, brother, sister, nephew or niece of the landlord or a person adopted by the landlord under the Adoption Acts 1952 to 1998.

You cannot put out a tenant to accommodate your brother!

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373520#Comment_120373520

It clearly says brother

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373520#Comment_120373520

Brother is right there in the list???

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373577#Comment_120373577

Yes it's not as if I'm asking for a second cousin or just a friend. I'm confused by the comment.

I‘m being facetious here, and sympathise with OP, but maybe I’d suggest joining your brother in a civil partnership to get over the hurdle.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373087#Comment_120373087

I’ve developed a disability where I’ll be needing the money to provide for myself living alone, first thing I’m gonna do is give more than required notice to sell the place, via the agency I use.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373660#Comment_120373660

I don't follow sorry. I was offering to help my brother and his partner out before I decide to sell because he's been good to us in the past. If I'm allowed to of course.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373728#Comment_120373728

You are allowed. This is your Asset and your decision what to do in future. Just serve the notice.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373904#Comment_120373904

I will make sure to discuss with a solicitor.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372745#Comment_120372745

Why would it be the governments responsibility to find accomodation for your tenant?

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374615#Comment_120374615

If they can't find a solution they will end up with the local authority

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374615#Comment_120374615

If tenants can't find alternative accommodation before the end of notice period, then it is the government's responsibility to house them as they would be homeless.

Property owners enter into a rental lease arrangement with tenants with clear conditions and notice periods, they don't assume the responsibility to house tenants for life. The only guarantor responsible for housing outside of a legal lease agreement is the government.

The government is also responsible for the state of the rental market, including driving small landlords out of it, which is why tenants are struggling to find alternative accommodation.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374729#Comment_120374729

Yes from research if tenants cannot find a solution or refuse to leave it looks like when all processes are exhausted the sheriff is engaged to gain possession and will give the tenants paperwork to present to the local authority for emergency accommodation.

I'm praying things won't go this way.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372669#Comment_120372669

Not too sure on the exact price but not that expensive in comparison to doing it yourself and making a mistake, it could cost you, it’s what happened to that girl who returned from Dubai and couldn’t get her house back, she made a mistake and it reverted to the start so she’s homeless. While the tenants stay in her house, very costly trying to save a few quid on it.

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374833#Comment_120374833

Do you have any recommendations?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373728#Comment_120373728

I really meant to add I’m giving more than required notice as I’m so nervous about putting a foot wrong re giving notice, but moreover I do want to give adequate tIme for my tenants to make their own arrangements. I do need to cash in my asset. I hope you find you are able to accommodate your brother satisfactorily and that everything will work out for all parties.