The eviction ban

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366213#Comment_120366213

Paint it whatever you wish. If you are a social tenant and you don't work, your rent is free. Paying 30 quid a week out of your dole is not a contribution. That assumes the 30 quid is paid, which often it isn't.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368895#Comment_120368895

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/dublin-city-council-overpaid-by-40pc-to-build-social-homes-report-finds-42345317.html

"Former Lord Mayor of Dublin, Green Party member Hazel Chu, said she was “not surprised” by the high costs due the higher quality of materials used in council properties.

“We need to maintain a high quality of standards when it comes to council built properties, but I do wonder about the management. We need to manage the costs better,” she said."

What a perverse incentive when those who are not contributing are getting higher quality things paid by those who work their asses off and can't afford it themselves.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368717#Comment_120368717

Those key workers include nurses, teachers and shop workers. There's loads of people on minimum wage who are "key workers" Plus there's existing communities. We can't force people out because another group want to live there. It's effectively a mini plantation.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369001#Comment_120369001

Hazel Chu shows sense and dense in one statement. At the current cost DCC is paying to build a house (around 300k), it would take nearly 200 years to recover the cost from a tenant paying 30 quid a week. That assumes no upgrades or maintenance. Sound investment there.

Myself and my OH are hardworking professionals. When I see properties being given to to people by the council on my street, it boils my blood. Most people here worked, or still work hard to pay for the roof over the head. Others just cried and moaned and got a gaff for nothing. Lift the eviction ban and go further....start moving freeloaders out.

I have siblings in council accommodation. One of them living alone in a 2 bed property worth nearly 400k. This family member needs council accommodation for reasons I won't get into, but doesn't need a 2 bed. The other living in a 4 bed property with a family. She's just a lazy and entitled fvcker tbh. That description fits too many social tenants. People like that should not be housed inside Dublin IMO. They can do nothing anywhere.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369166#Comment_120369166

Making sense again. I would have a lot less of an issue with key workers being subsidised in prime locations. For those who sponge the dole and claim for everything when doing nothing....up off yer arse and do nothing somewhere else. Maybe if Dublin buys Leitrim for a few hundred grand, we can put em all there 😂

Emblematic

We can argue about where council properties should be built but I think however, going forward, we need vastly more units built of all sorts; social and affordable as well as commercial for rent and for sale (particularly at the moment for rent). The reason why this discussion is happening at all is because far too few residential units have been built over the past couple of decades and we need to stand up to those who oppose new developments.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369744#Comment_120369744

We should build affordable rentals for low income and key workers. There is probably also a case for building affordable homes for sale. The state could probably build entire estates, 50% affordable rentals and 50% affordable homes at scale and for a reasonable price. The HAP system would remain for those who aren't working.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368895#Comment_120368895

paint it whatever way you want, it is subsidized not free.

for it to be free, there would be no requirement to pay anything, there is a requirement to pay rent ergo it's not free.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369584#Comment_120369584

it would be a few hundred billion for your classist clensist plantation nonsense which in some sense could be classed as a form of genocide, and would likely breach international law.

in reference to your other post, the fact it boils your blood that you chose to buy a house yet are whinging because someone got a subsidized house they have been deemed to be entitled to shows you are in fact the real self-entitled one if i'm honest.

you are going to get a property and will own it assuming you keep up the repayments for which it is actually the bank's house until you pay back the loan in full.

the subsidized tenant on the other hand will never own the property they are living in.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370055#Comment_120370055

I don't think anyone has an issue with those in social housing who work or are disabled being accommodated in sought after areas.

I think many people do have an issue with the types who won't work, drag up their kids and cause misery where ever they are being accommodated.

There is a clear distinction between these two groups and they should be housed accordingly.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370144#Comment_120370144

A lot of people who live in sought after areas and payed for it the hard way absolutely do have an issue with it, I know many.

The worst is new developments where people are paying over 600k or 700k for a house and half of the development is given to social housing.

People are getting screwed on house prices, screwed on tax and then their tax is going to pay for their neighbour's house so they get the same home without paying for it. Many are gaming the system also.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370144#Comment_120370144

we tried that, it failed.

hence we have the approach of mixed developments which mostly work and which mostly integrate people.

those who deliberately won't work and drag up their kids are such a minority they are irrelevant and can easily be dealt with if we resourced the relevant services.

however chucking them in a ghetto is not happening no matter how much a few self-entitled individuals whinge.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370055#Comment_120370055

Genoicide is a bit dramatic.

There is an inherent and incontrovertible logic to trying to make most efficient use of resources. It would seem a bit silly to allocate scarce resources to a person who doesn't actually need them.

Let's suppose you are in charge of housing for a day. You have two houses you can allocate, one in Dundalk, and one in East Wall. You have two 38 year old applicants for those houses, both from inner-city Dublin. John who has worked in Dublin city centre for the past 20 years since he turned 18, and Jim who, by choice, has never worked, and will likely never work. He gets up around noon every day, spends a few hours in the bookies and goes to the pub or has a few cans in the evening. John starts at 7am every morning. There is a bus that leaves Dundalk at 5am that will get him into work on time most days.

You get to make the choice - which one do you think would be better to put in East Wall and which one would you put in Dundalk?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370310#Comment_120370310

This adherence to "Mixed developments" is responsible to a considerable degree for current the housing fuckup

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370247#Comment_120370247

ultimately that is just the problem for those who have an issue with someone else getting what they believe to be a better deal on a similar property to them.

in reality it's actually not really a better deal at all as the individual being subsidized will never own the property.

the same individuals would be complaining, even though they will deny it, if someone got the same property for 400k or 300k, but unfortunately sometimes people get a better deal on something they buy and yes it is a bummer when it happens but it's not going to change.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370321#Comment_120370321

it's irrelevant as whoever i would pick i would be told that i actually wouldn't pick either one.

trust me, have been there and played that game.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370363#Comment_120370363

Ya wha?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370333#Comment_120370333

not really.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370369#Comment_120370369

Of course it is. It absolved Councils of the responsibility to build estates like they used to.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370379#Comment_120370379

they were already absolved of doing that pre that policy.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370398#Comment_120370398

Well as long as it's in place, they won't be able to build their own housing.

If you support a rigid adherence to "mixed developments" then you are de facto supporting the position where only the private sector builds, and the councils should never build anything of significance.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370379#Comment_120370379

Then you will have people on here complaining the council or government buying up land for social housing for these people.

Council and governments don't build for that we need developers to develop, builders to build, banks to loan money and government to give straight forward building regulations to follow with acceptance in a timely manner.

This talk about social housing etc is getting in the way of we need the above to start happening.

Well one thing the government could do is advertise the rest of the country for jobs and investment so not everyone things the cities are where its at

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370453#Comment_120370453

they are able to build, they are refusing to build.

that is even if they are allowed to build in the first place which i suspect they aren't.

we have to remove the old bigotries and eradicate classism, mixing people does this eventually.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370486#Comment_120370486

How can the council build a "mixed development"?

Suppose they actually do build an estate of 100 houses on the edge of a town somewhere. Are they supposed to sell 90 of them to private buyers and only house 10 social tenants?

And I'm talking about the Council actually building. Not paying a private builder to build it for them. Whether they have the staff at this minute in time is not the point - they can build capacity if they want to over the next few years.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370480#Comment_120370480

Councils already have plenty of land. They don't need to buy more. What they currently do though is turn it over to private developers in return for the developers building a percentage of social housing that the Council will then pay them for.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370337#Comment_120370337

I don't even know where to start with this, so I won't!

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369940#Comment_120369940

If the person paying the ~90% subsidised rent had a job and earned their own money, then it wouldn't be free. As it stands, if the dole is the method of paying this rent, then it's free.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370310#Comment_120370310

What do you mean it hasn't worked? Failed for who? The Netherlands puts them in "Scum Villages" incidentally. They decided the mixed tenure stuff wasn't working for them due to the problems caused to upstanding citizens whether they work or not (including those in social housing who do work, are disabled or make an effort).

You strike me as someone who is hopelessly sheltered from the coalface of what can happen to an entire estate should just one dysfunctional family be moved in by the council. That's all it can take to make your life hellish.

Why should anyone have sympathy for them?

Tell us all why they are deserving of a roof over their heads paid for by us and our understanding and sympathy.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370055#Comment_120370055

How have you formed the opinion that moving freeloaders to less prime real estate to be a form of genocide? Had a few pints for Paddies day have you?

Moving these people would not cost billions. Done over a period of 10+ years, it would generate revenue from the sale and market rate rental of these properties. This revenue could be used to build more properties which is very much needed.

You want to know what makes me entitled? I work hard and I pay my way. When someone is handed the keys to an asset worth on average 400k because they chose to leach from the system, of course it boils my blood. I'm working to support the freeloaders as well as my own family. That money could and should be spent on deserving items, such as health and education and oh I don't know....maybe our chronically underpaid defense forces.

You talk about me getting to own my property after the mortgage is paid. What point are you making there? I pay more in property tax each year than freeloaders have paid for them in rent. If I need to extend my property, I pay about a hundred grand for a kitchen extension. If a social tenant needs to extend, it gets paid for, or they get offered a different property. The freeloading council tenant doesn't need to own the property. They have their forever home with periodic upgrades given free of charge.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371557#Comment_120371557

ultimately it isn't free as rent is required to be paid.

once the recipient of the dole or other benefit receives the money they get it's not their money, before hand it's the governments tax take from us.

we will have earned the money originally but once it passes to the government then it's no longer our money.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371730#Comment_120371730

And who is paying the money from which the rent has to be paid?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371601#Comment_120371601

the netherlands still have mixed developments and are creating more.

only actual problematic families are moved to the villages however those villages are heavily resourced and there is heavy enforcement because the netherlands can afford the huge costs of making it work because the amount of families are tiny.

putting a roof over their heads costs us less in the long run.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371742#Comment_120371742

So it's a hostage situation then? We have to house scum or worse will happen.

Other countries have a far better idea of how to deal with this.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371615#Comment_120371615

it would cost billions as we would need to build huge infrastructure and services where we plan to move them to, or if not, the huge costs that creating a ghetto brings.

a state sanctioned policy of moving people into areas because of certain characteristics or ideals is generally a form of genocide because it is designed to separate those people from people deemed to be deserving/perfect/whatever because of said characteristics and ideals regardless of whether individuals have done anything wrong or not.

it's your job to work hard, and actually you don't fully pay your way because you, like me and every other tax payer and non-tax payer, receive public services.

if you own the house or live in the bank's house until you have paid the mortgage and then it becomes yours, then of course it's your job to pay for any extention you may need.

the council tenant, most of who are not free loaders but people in need, don't pay for some things because they can't afford it and are in need because the required evidence has been provided to show they are in need.

it just boils your blood because you think you are special when you aren't, as none of us are.

if someone got the house for half the price you would be boiling over that as well.

you made your choice to own a property as i did, suck it up.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371737#Comment_120371737

moderate socialism works perfectly in a capitalist world, otherwise we would have no public services or infrastructure.

extreme socialism as practiced hardly anywhere doesn't work but just as well nobody is looking for it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371761#Comment_120371761

you think wrong.

the rise of the far/alt right (well it's not really a rise anymore as people are slowly seeing through them) is due to the far/alt right being able to dupe already extreme individuals as well as other misfits via bringing out their inner victim complex and convincing them that good stuff that benefit them is to blame for them not amounting to anything or what they want to be when in fact it is them, and the policies implemented by the ordinary right in the past.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371771#Comment_120371771

we already did vote for it.

the UK has a hard right government at the moment, and the centre to the far/alt right have been rejected every time they have gone for election to something in ireland as people know they offer and will offer nothing but sound bites while trashing workers.

exactly like the UK where workers are being driven to the brink by 13 years of wrecking the gaff.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371778#Comment_120371778

No, your absurd propositions (and those like you) are the reason. You think that workers have no issue with absolute scumbags being housed in their estates and wrecking their lives, that it's not an issue.

You say it costs us all less in the long run. So you are advocating for a hostage situation.

Like I said, you are deluded or just trolling.

Either way there will be answers coming for all of this nonsense. Not that I support the right wing, I'm centrist like most, but keep pushing your nonsense.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371776#Comment_120371776

it is still socialism however because the money is taken from us to centrally fund the services for all of us, those services being inefficient or not.

even if we pay something to use the services, if they are government funded as well then it means they are being subsidized so still equate to socialism.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371784#Comment_120371784

no, it's because of what i said.

deluding individuals with a victim complex by appealing to and bringing out their victim complex is the reason for the small rise of the far right.

the far right have no answers and even the general right have no answers.

only us centrists and the moderate left have the answers.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371758#Comment_120371758

What is it with you and strawman throwaway comments? Yeah, I made my choice and pay for my own house and contribute to society. You make it sound like like a bad thing.

OK, I'm going to break this down, because clearly you have zero concept with regards to the value of the properties in prime locations versus basically anywhere outside of Dublin, Cork and Galway. Take a hypothetical example for Dublin and if it was a requirement to keep social tenants inside Dublins borders rather than building in Leitrim. Places like Oldtown and Ballyboughal on the northside, or around Knockannavea and Dungaoith have the hard infrastructure to start building social housing for freeloaders. There would need to be a relatively small investment to get started in the region of a few hundred million which would quickly be earned back by selling and/or properly renting the social housing inside the M50 zone to start and then tackling the likes of D22 & D24 in the final stages.

DCC alone currently own 25,000 properties. Interesting that as of 2017 (most recent available figures), 20% of these properties have more bedrooms than tenants. If we conservatively say the average price is 350,000 per unit, then the value is close to 9,000,000.000. (€9 Billion). This excludes FCC units which would be a significant number I am sure. It also excludes the HAP payments which are over €1,000 on average. I dont have DCC figures, but in 2019, the national number of properties on HAP was above 57,000. Dublin holds the lions share, so to conservatively speculate that 25,000 Dublin properties are on HAP, that's €25,000,000 per year that could be put to greater use in less prime areas.

I would move HAP recipients first and end the scheme. Over a 10 year period, that would be €250,000,000 not wasted and given to private landlords, most of whom don't want HAP tenants anyway. It takes some extrapolation due to low availability, but the average cost to build a medium rise apartment complex, broken down per unit outside the M50 zone is €100,000. This is actually based on 2 bed apartments in Skerries (so more expensive really) and then considering the construction costs being at around half of the sale price.

If we only took the HAP savings over the 10 year period of €250,000,000 and assumed a very large increase of 50% per unit cost to allow for local services, we would have over 1,600 units built and no further expenditure. Charge affordable rents based on income and the council would then have another income stream instead of a bottomless pit.

If we then tackle the council houses (which by the way excludes housing charities which councils pay for and are not on the books) we have €9,000,000,000 to play with. Using the same €150,000 unit build cost, that would produce 60,000 units.

Finally, step back for a second here and remember there are 25k direct DCC properties. How many properties would we then have to play with if we could build 60,000 of them by moving council and HAP tenants out of the prime areas? We need less than 5,000 units to house all the homeless in the country.

How many people would save hundreds of hours per year no longer commuting from Kildare, Meath, Louth, Carlow, Wicklow and further afield to Dublin? That's a lot of pollution miles and more time workers have with their families. Working folk should have greater choice than freeloaders with regards to where they live. Want a free, or heavily almost entirely subsidised house, then you need to move out further. I hope this helps paint the picture for you. I doubt any political party would have the balls, or vision to take on such a project though.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371794#Comment_120371794

yes they are called sinn fein.

the current government aren't centre left.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372652#Comment_120372652

the council tenants are fine in the prime areas which are only really prime for developers.

low paid workers would never be in those areas due to affordability and would in a lot of cases still end up commuting from kildare ETC either because they own property or other reasons.

so ultimately your   social classist cleansing program would still remain unviable and would be a ridiculous cost, whereas simply building houses on available land within the cities and a bit out is the only workable sollution and those houses being available for a mix of users .

working people have a greater choice of properties, it's just properties are expensive to own and rent at the moment.

what you want was tried and it created ghetoisation and huge regeneration costs, ergo it failed and no political party is going to waste their time on that again.

classissssst social cleansing will not happen in ireland.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372795#Comment_120372795

Do you have anything to back up your nonsense claims? You have rubbished mine despite me backing up everything I posted.

In my post, I never mentioned anything about developers and yet somehow, you managed to squeeze them into prime areas. The existing social stock, sold, or rented as they currently stand would achieve the figures I quoted. I suspect you skimmed through and conveniently ignored what didn't suit you.

Working people DO NOT have a greater choice in properties. The councils have been for years buying up private stock in the cities and renting them to social tenants. This pushes workers out of the local market and forces them to move to commuter towns. This is why, as you correctly pointed out, the properties are too expensive. The current system places tenants with no jobs into the prime property location.

If there were 2 families awaiting housing allocation with 1 family having both adults working in Dublin City and the other family being unemployed. With 1 property based in Dublin City and the other based in.....Ballyboughal, Co Dublin, which family would you put into the Co Dublin property and why?

Ghetto towns arise when the properties are built without appropriate services in place. This is why in my calculation I allowed a 50% per unit increase which....as I pointed out would more than double the number of social dwellings while freeing up 25,000 properties within Dublin City for people to buy and/or rent.

Emblematic

The solutions will involve more supply overall. More social housing being built. More build to rent. More build to purchase. More rezoning. Speeding up the planning process. Tackling nimbyism and lobbying by landlord groups trying to limit supply. To a certain extent it does not matter what type of units are supplied; everything has a knock-on effect of easing shortage elsewhere.

I think the mistake many of us make wherever we stand on the political spectrum is that we assume we can't do anything about supply and therefore it is about grabbing as much for ourselves before the other person gets it. Hence, on the right, some people don't want social housing in prosperous areas and meanwhile, on the left, a higher end development is objected to on the basis that it does not cater to the less well off. However all these are solving the supply issue and those objecting are stifling the solution.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372932#Comment_120372932

It's not just the cities and commuter towns around them that the councils are buying everything, it's happening further out too.

I'm privately renting a house (no HAP or other assistance) that is one of a row of 4. The other 3 have been sold to the council and social tenants installed in as many years. Thankfully 2 of the 3 are lovely and decent working people - the other have already had a Garda raid in the year they've been here and are members of our own other "oppressed minority" (thank you Enda Kenny!) with everything that brings. It'll get worse no doubt as the kids get older.

This is 2 counties away from Dublin but I find myself in a position where, while I am on "good money" and work mostly from home, because I'm a single working person I haven't a chance of saving enough in a reasonable timeframe to buy somewhere - I'm not just competing against other renters (most being couples with double my earning potential), but my own taxes in the form of the council. Then there's the current "come one, come all" refugee/migrant policy that is only adding to the pressures - especially as many of them will be here indefinitely.

If I do have to go to the office, that's a trip to just inside the M50 - an hour on a good day, double that if not so good, and the same back in the evening. The one good thing to come from Covid was increased/normalised WFH. Before 2020 I was shattered by the end of the day and my home was more like a B&B because of the time lost - not to mention that doing upwards of 1100km a week wasn't cheap either!

Like many others in this bracket, I pay for everything yet get very little in return and certainly no assistance unless I am unfortunate enough to lose my job - in which case I'll be treated like a waster and hounded with paperwork and stress, while the actual wasters game the system without issue.

As I said before, this country and its services are fundamentally broken - not just in term of resources, but priorities, management and accountability. There are no parties that represent me or others like me (they all see us as cash cows to be milked for every cent to put towards the "less fortunate" and their own pockets), and we're being penalised more and more each year - rental costs are just one element. There's also the costs of utilities and essential/required services (insurance, healthcare etc etc), and ongoing threats to punish people for having the gall to drive to work.

Ireland seems to be drifting more and more into left-leaning socialism with each election and despite all the talk about "the economy", the situation on the ground seems to be deteriorating. We could ask where the money is going, but anyone with an even passing interest in politics over the last 20 years will know that - wasteful pet and vanity projects, massive foreign aid during the recession, political hangers on (formerly builders and benefactors, now NGOs among others), and of course general waste and inefficiency (it's only taxpayer money after all!).

The really depressing thing is that I don't see it getting better, but easily expect it to get worse as we layer on the socially divisive identity and culture war over it all. The place is rapidly becoming like the worst of the US because we seem to absorb it like a sponge in our genetic "need" for approval and validation.

The way things are going, I'll be advising my son to work and study hard in school, get his degree and then GTFO of this place because by the time he gets to that point there'll probably be no future for him in Ireland anyway.

Emblematic

@_Kaiser_ wrote: "This is 2 counties away from Dublin but I find myself in a position where, while am on "good money" and work mostly from home, because I'm a single working person, I haven't a chance of saving enough in a reasonable timeframe to buy somewhere - I'm not just competing against other renters (most being couples with double my earning potential), but my own taxes in the form of the council. Then there's the current "come one, come all" refugee/migrant policy that is only adding to the pressures - especially as many of them will be here indefinitely."

And on top of it all, although I don't know the specifics of your case, I would imagine that you have no security of tenancy. At any point, even in the middle of your lease, you could be told to vacate due to a family member of the landlord moving in or that the property is to be sold.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375549#Comment_120375549

Yep exactly. I've been here a few years now which is well above average, but there's always that "threat" looming over you, and you can't do anything to the place because either they won't allow it (although my LL is very reasonable, if entirely reactive and absent) or there's no point beyond relatively small things because you're investing in someone else's property.

I couldn't even get a cat because while my LL probably wouldn't mind and I furnished the place myself, what about the next one?

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375549#Comment_120375549

Are you trying to say that a landlord should never be allowed to use their property for their own use or for their family?

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375634#Comment_120375634

I was more making a comment about the market as a whole and how supply needs to increase dramatically. Having said that, once supply problems are on the way to being solved, I would like to see things shifting away from small-time landlords and more towards professional fund based ones who would be more in a position to offer such security once properly regulated.