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Zero political centre or centre right, solutions!

  • 24-02-2023 7:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭


    Given that all we have is left wing options, with the exception of the property gouge, which is more of a right wing ideology, what do you do? Many people wont vote for SF, we have a useless FFG. FG are now more interested in increasing welfare than looking after workers. It doesnt seem we will get a party that will do, what FG said they would do in 2012. Is one solution, a mass of votes for FF in protest of the lack of fiscal prudence and even the working poor being hit with a 50% marginal tax rate, to fund the waste and wasters. Its one possible arrangement I can think of, that might force the issue... That as FG are the most right leaning, in a left to far left only options we have politically, when you talk of parties of any scale. I dont see many / any options...



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://politpro.eu/en/ireland/parties



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,053 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    If ALL the major parties are left-leaning, which I disagree with in its over-simplicity but that's another post, surely the fact that an overwhleming amount of the voting public (last GE had 62.6% turnout) voted for them would suggest that most people want 'left-leaning' parties to lead the country.

    Turnout for 2016 was around 65% and in 2011 it was nearly 70%. A brief glance at previous elections would suggest turnout seems to hover between 62% and 70%. There is a downward trend but even if the next election had 70% turnout, I don't see all that 8% voting for some new 'cente-right' option. Even if there was magically 100% turnout, do people really believe that 38% want to vote for 'centre-right' options? Even then, it still wouldn't change the make-up of the Government as 'left-leaning' parties would likely get.more votes, if previous elections are anything to go on.

    There is room for new political movements in the country. FF and FG can see that civil war politics is dying as people see there's little different between them apart from their party colours. I think SF are targeting a protest vote and picking up lots of former/potential Labour votes. I'd argue that all parties are moving towards the centre as they try to be all things to all people. There are still a few hardcore left and right parties (all small) while the number of Independents seems to grow.

    The downward trend in turnout could suggest that people are losing faith in political parties though its something that has happened previously and is within previous ranges of turnout. I think turnout will increase for the next election and people do seem to have less faith in the big two parties but I don't see where they are going to go. As there hasn't been an unprecedented drop in turnout and the biggest winner in the last election was a 'traditional' left party, I don't see a big group of people waiting to vote 'centre-right'. It would seem that people prefer to re-direct their votes around the current choices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


     Is one solution, a mass of votes for FF in protest of the lack of fiscal prudence and even the working poor being hit with a 50% marginal tax rate, to fund the waste and wasters. Its one possible arrangement I can think of, that might force the issue.

    Do you mean SF here? I've seen several disenchanted right-leaning boardsies propose this but I don't understand how it would work. The only conclusion I could see FF and FG drawing from such a surge is that they need to move further to the left.

    Broadly agree with the first paragraph here. If there was this much-vaunted gap in the market on the right, something would have emerged to fill it by now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    We heard of a politician getting death threats recently for speaking the truth! Its so much easier to just say, all of the electorate should get more, you are a great bunch of lads. I believe there is no desire to put yourself forward here, to be obliterated for being the far right nazi's you would be made out to be, if you werent to the left... I can really see in this country, why nobody would want to be that person or party...


    Human nature and certainly politics especially in IReland, is choose the easiest path. If FFG can maintain power and choose easy street every time, they are going to keep doing it. The lack of political choice here on the spectrum, I would attribute, as to a large part of why there are so many problems in the country...



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Does responsibility for this state of affairs not ultimately rest with the electorate?




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  • Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭Hungry Burger


    I would consider myself centre to right, Unfortunately what one of the posters above said is true, the vast majority of people vote FFG or SF so we will get left wing governments as that’s just how democracy works even if we disagree with them. Aontu are starting to look good for my vote in the next election depending on them not going farther to the left, I voted Renua no 1 the last time out but they just seem to be a bit of a non entity at the moment and not making any progress whatsoever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    get rid of the right, they just bring racism and bigotry



  • Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭Hungry Burger




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭quokula


    We have pretty much the fairest and most representative voting system and form of democracy possible. The parliament we elect represents what the people want, and there are absolutely no barriers to far right parties running other than the fact they have a tiny amount of support.



  • Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭Hungry Burger


    Who said anything about Far Right? We’re talking about Centre Right parties here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    By a mile the worlds lowest entry point to a signficant rate of tax, at an absurd level! YES ... One of it not the most generous welfare states on the planet? Free luxury housing, welfare bonuses galore etc... YES... Yeah someone tell me how they think FFG are even centre? they are left..



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,671 ✭✭✭buried


    Time to forget about all political entities. None of them should be your concern. Time to look after yourself, and anybody that still has their health intact has no real excuse not to. If your expecting any sort of politician to have a "solution" to any of your concerns you may as well head into the local Abrahamic church and expect the Middle eastern god who resides in there to give you the solution too.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,344 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Is there a spread on how long it takes this just "right of centre" "FG are left-wing" OP to expose him/her self as more far-right than he/she believes?

    Going to go for 3-4 more posts myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I do get the impression Leo is testing the water for a move towsrds centre right policies though, cap on immigration is being considered.

    I think he jas read the room where the other parties have not.

    The taoiseach and leader of the party that has been in government for over 10 years is 'testing the water' for a move to the right? Do you think he will try to introduce these policies in the 18 months or whatever is left of the current government or save them for the election campaign?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,195 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    They are all centre left on social issues. There is a genuine right/left divide economically however.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,195 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    The right seeks market solutions to society issues and government solutions to business issues. The left proposes government solutions to society issues and market solutions to business issues.

    Exemplars of this in the Irish context are housing and banking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,795 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Get more folk to vote for FG and give them an overall majority.

    For as long as they are condemned to coalition, they will be centre-left.

    I'm not saying that good or bad, its just where we are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


     its certaonly testing the waters.

    Is it, or is it just chucking out some palaver to propitiate right-leaning voters while having no intention of doing anything substantial to actualize it? Someting the same Leo has a bit of a history of, if you look back...

    At some point does the following old saying not have to kick in for people looking for Leo to deliver on his right-wing posturing




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭Hodors Appletart


    Part of the problem with right-wing politics is that it attracts religious nutters, and that puts off a lot of normal people.

    Ireland has roundly rejected the church and it's grip on the country, and anyone who even looks like they might think about bringing religion back into politics is rightly given short shrift.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85




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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Is this not just Leo being the populist that he is. If the political wind turned against gay marriage this fella would have no issue saying he didn't agree with it. IMO



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I don't want to get too much sucked into this debate but just to point out that right-wing parties do not necessarily spend less public money.

    Right-wing parties like to promise less spending but the evidence seems to point that if they do the effect is minimal.

    Where right and left wing parties differ is more on what and how, they spend.

    For evidence on why FFG are centre-right look at how they will almost always look to the private market for solutions.

    Whether the private market can effectively deliver public solutions is open for debate, I'd say certainly in the case of housing and health they haven't.

    And I think people often fail to factor in how small the Irish market is, in a lot of cases we we'll have little competition to deliver services.

    Look at the disaster that is the home retrofit scheme. Only a handful of companies have signed up to be 'one-stop shops' and there appears to be massive gouging. Only 89 (sic) homes retrofitted in year one, against a target of approx 80,000 per year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I think what we really have are neoliberal, 'market ueber alles' politics disguised with a veil of 'inclusion' as left wing politics. I'm not sure looking for less disguised versions of the same is the answer.

    Left wing politics would include tolerance, inclusion & equality for sure, but at its core always was and is equality or at least some sort of balance in the economical sense. Nobody seems to be looking for that at all anymore. And the few that still do are branded as nutters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,937 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    We dont have any left or right wing major parties. They all go with the wind, he will stand up for landlords and vulture funds with one hand and then give out record welfare with other.

    We are nothing but a tax haven for big business. Golden handshakes and alms for the poor is their prerogative, anything to hold onto power. SF ever get a go, their left vote swaying ideology will be thrown in the bin too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,797 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    fg and center left! serious! its clearly obvious, fg prioritise the needs and wants of wealth most of the time, this is clearly obvious!

    the days of the majority are over, for now anyway, id say fg are in for a bit of a shock in the next ge!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,797 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    again, wealth is generally stored in the value of assets such as property and land, but parties such as fg have a refusal to implement polices and taxes to reduce this accumulation of wealth, and in fact continually implement polices that encourages it! this is the protection of wealth!

    yes, in order to maintain an element of functionality of the country, since there is a strong resistance to the implementation of such, this means labour and consumption taxes take on the brunt of this need!

    ....since theres such an outrage towards welfare classes, maybe some boards members should try it, just for the craic, well it makes sense, so to also experience this 'easy life'!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Yeah but 'testing the water' implies a genuine openness to introducing serious restrictions on immigration that I don't believe is there. It's like when Varadkar said this, how likely is it that he was genuinely undecided in his own mind?

    To me he's just fobbing off right-wing voters with empty sounbites as he has done so often before. And he keeps getting away with it not because many of those voters are geuinely convinced by his posturing but because they have no credible alternative to FG...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    Leo is a man who is energised by the power of the lie and how there is nobody to hold him account for; bar his own conscience I wouldn’t believe a word out of him



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Thanks BlueSkyDreams, I suppose my answer to that would be that it's not just where a center-right government spends, it's also how it spends.

    So looking at health, a large proportion of that figure would go towards private gps, private nursing homes, private pharmacys, private disability services, and private hospitals through treatment purchase schemes.

    I think it's important to remember too that welfare would make up a smaller percentage of the Social Protection budget than you might think. It would also include state pensions and disability. Those pensions are generally universal too, so Irelands billionaires and their families will also benefit. A significant portion then would also go to employment and community services, which is back to the semi-private quangos, fas, rehab etc.

    Also we've a scenario where a lot of both health and housing budgets will go indirectly towards private housing, whether directly to hap payments or through recipients topping up private landlords.

    As for why private construction is the only game in town, I'd suggest because we've had so many years of center-right governments.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    There is no better card to play before the election to pull voters from SF.

    He cant fix housing or healthcare before the GE but he can make changes to immigration.

    Can he though? Significant policy changes would require buy-in from FF and the Greens. I suppose if Varadkar were fully committed to this approach he could engineer the fall of the government over it and fight the subsequent general election with restrictions on immigration as his main policy proposal but that would be very uncharacteristic edgelord behaviour from cautious, respectable FG...



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