1 in 12 vehicles on Irish roads not insured - Motor Insurer's Bureau of Ireland

Calahonda52

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0220/1357601-1-in-12-vehicles-not-insured-on-irish-roads-mibi/

Are the Civil liberties crowd blocking this legislation as they did with using the PPSN number to reduce SW fraud?

The MIBI undertakes this research by contrasting the number of private motor vehicle owners paying motor taxes with the number of vehicles who have active insurance policies.

Time to defund them if it is the case.

what is it 350,000 without NCT

Atlantic Dawn

I'm not surprised, any court case I have ever seen for driving with no insurance the fine given by the judge has been much less than what a years insurance would have cost the driver. This is despite the judge being able to fine up to €5k.

babyducklings1

187,803 last year. Wow! Staggering numbers really when you think about it.

User1998

I drive several cars on my trade policy that are taxed and ‘uninsured’. There must be at least another 500 active trade policy holders across Ireland driving multiple different cars. And what about cars that are taxed and get driven on ‘driving other cars’ policies?

And then you have cars that are insured by one person being driven by another. Its probably not the most accurate representation of our roads

hoodie6029

Cyber security is the far bigger concern when it comes to accessing these databases than civil liberties.

The National Driver and Vehicle File contains the details of well over 80% of the adults in Ireland. There’s more people on it than there are registered to vote. PPS numbers and convictions and also medical conditions are on it too.

Add to that all their information on companies that own vehicles, the details and registered address of every vehicle in the country.

If a hacker got it, it would be worth millions. The State takes the security of this information very seriously. While being able to catch dodgers and criminals is very important, it is very slow to give access to another app to this database.

And what Minister wants to be the one that greenlit an app that wasn’t secure and ends up compromising the data of pretty much all the adults in Ireland?

walterking

funny that these surveys never tell you the parameters they used

The gardai regularly have a checkpoint set up near where I work. Its a very busy road. If 1 in 12 cars were uninsured they'd have dozens of cars taken - the reality is they usually have 2 or 3.

When organisations bandy about hysterical figures like this without giving the full details of how they arrived at the figure, its best to ignore them.

magicbastarder

a regular checkpoint? i very rarely see any checkpoints...

wasn't it IT issues which have prevented the introduction of ANPR systems for garda cars? can't claim civil liberties issues on information which by law must be publically displayed.

hoodie6029

In reality, if you keep to back roads, you could drive your entire life and not meet a guard. I’m sure that there are plenty at it.

tabby aspreme

I drive around 1000 km per week on an equal mix of road types, the last checkpoint I was stopped at, was a covid checkpoint

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266710#Comment_120266710

All valid points but we are missing out on the main point here.

Anyone driving without insurance is going to drive without tax too as I'd see it as a lesser evil. So the numbers picked up by that survey is most likely horseshit as most of the taxed cars are likely under some form of insurance as you say BUT, how many are out there with absolutely nothing on them. These are completely unknown and I'd imagine the numbers are quite big so they came up with a figure of 1 in 12 uninsured. Probably not miles away from reality but not based on this taxed but no insured nonsense.

hoodie6029

You regularly see it on Garda Twitter. Disqualified driver, no tax, insurance or NCT. From the data point of view, these cars and drivers are ghosts until the Guards catch them. No way to know how many are out there and no way to find them.

Until you need a biometric to start an engine, they will be with us.

Driving standards have dropped so much since the Pandemic, I drive on the assumption that someone driver erratically/incompetently is one of these ghosts and avoid if I can.

magicbastarder

it'd be gas if the government passed legislation mandating that petrol stations install cameras which read plates and switch off pumps when cars with no tax or insurance pull onto the forecourt.

not that i expect that's likely to happen in any way, shape or form.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267304#Comment_120267304

Or motorways.

I will admit I had to do a spin to NCT without insurance because I couldn't get the latter without the former. Stupid system.

So I thought I'd drive down the backroads and boreens at stupid o'clock in the morning. But I said, on the back roads, while you would never meet a Guard , you would be on the road for hours, have oncoming traffic, and any mad whore could pull out in front of you. Whereas on the Motorway, you will be on road a minimum amount of time and get there quick, no oncoming traffic, no eejits pulling out of gates in front of you. And you will never ever ever come across a garda checkppoint on a Motorway.

So I drove the motorway.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267358#Comment_120267358

And I'd say a lot of the totally unregulated ones would be "culture cars".

No tax, no NCT, no insurance, no licence. Car still registered to previous owner, or fake plates. Bought for cash at a horse fair.

Can't read. No fixed abode to send a fine or summons to. Probably banned from having a licence. 80 previous convictions. Claiming dole on 3 different PPS numbers. Bate the wife.

Gardai can't do anything about these cultured fellows, so they don't even bother going after them.

They are a law unto themselves. And to be honest, fair fúcks to them. I mean if I thought I could get away with flouting every road traffic law going with no material consequence whatsoever, bar maybe a week or two in the clink every now and then, sure I would do it too.

magicbastarder

gardai have the power to confiscate cars, do they not, without recourse to who the driver is? confiscate the cars, let the owners get the paperwork in order.

Arnout

It's simple: central database, every vehicle registered in it has to have insurance, motortax paid and a valid NCT. Failing any of those is an automatic fine. Not using the vehicle, then you have to actively deregister it (temporarily or permanently depending on your future plans with it).

ANPR on Garda cars and overhead motorway cameras do the rest.

Of course there's still people who slip through the holes in the net but it'll already be a whole lot less.

Oh and as for NCT: just have the tests carried out by your local garage where you bring the car anyway for maintenance. They can fix any issues on the spot as well. Government performs a sample test to assure the NCTs are carried out correctly. Job done, no backlogs.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268908#Comment_120268908

I'm in a similar situation re trying to get a classic car back on the road. I have to trailer it to the test. You were very dodgy driving without insurance.

I would drive it to test without test or without tax but not without insurance, no way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268994#Comment_120268994

Some years ago there was a caller, a Howth restaurant owner, on Liveline who complained that her pick-up truck was taken away by the Gardai and she was left somewhere around Sligo with her kids and no transport. Gardai said it had not got the correct insurance. Don’t know what she wanted to achieve by phoning Joe, but her gust was because she was a mother she should have been left with the car or at the very least the guards should provide transport in lieu of her car. 🙄

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269196#Comment_120269196

Poster said they'd drive all the time without insurance if they thought they'd get away with it, so best ignored as a source of reasonable comment.

Arnout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269209#Comment_120269209

You'd think it's easy enough to tell the difference between these two vehicles, and their purpose:

ELM327

I have 3 cars, two of which are currently taxed, but only one is insured. I can drive the other as it's not in my name. It's not uninsured.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269112#Comment_120269112

I really don’t want my safety on the road to depend on some lad’s mechanic mate signing off on his death trap jalopy.

Arnout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269336#Comment_120269336

Hence the sample tests that the government performs. An unjustified pass results in penalty points, enough penalty points results in revoking the NCT license.

Arnout

And while we're on that subject: how does it currently work then with somebody who has a mate working for an NCT centre? Surely there must be some sort of supervision there as well?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269455#Comment_120269455

Sample tests won’t cut it. The mechanic will be able to do favours for mates with little chance of being caught.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269196#Comment_120269196

Well it was totally illegal for me to drive it there uninsured. But to be honest, I couldn't give a fúck and I wasn't paying some fella a few hundred to put it on a trailer. No way.

But I wasn't reckless either. I chose a route and time where the risk of an accident and of meeting a Guard was minimised. I was willing to take the chance.

And sure fúck it, if I was caught it probably wouldn't cost me much more in a fine than paying a fella with a trailer to haul it down.

Arnout

Some might risk it, but most won't risk their livelihood. Like I said, it's often combined with servicing the car (it's on the ramp anyway). Regular customers, if they have to go somewhere else for their test, they probably take the rest of the work somewhere else too.

Again: no system is fail-safe. But it's a whole lot better than what it is now.

All this is how it's worked for many years in the Netherlands, where I come from. Sorry to keep comparing with that, but it's what I'm most familiar with. They've done away with scraps of paper behind the windshield (insurance and motortax) and stickers on the numberplate (annual roadworthiness test) about 30 years ago as it's all registered in said database. And anyone can insure a car today for the year, cancel it tomorrow, but they'll still have their scrap, and nobody can tell where the sticker on the number plate comes from, so all that had little value (and has little value here).

Also in the Netherlands you insure the car, not the driver. So anyone can drive any vehicle (with the owner's consent of course, otherwise it's joyriding which is of course not allowed) as long as they have a valid driver's license for that category. Insurance companies do ask to state the regular driver's name if it's not the owner, but the kids can drive daddy's car without paying € 5000 a year extra.

CreadanLady

Well you see the other thing here is that there is little to no consequence for a person caught taxless/insuranceless/nctless/licenceless here.

You get a fine which you can just not pay, and there is little enough the Gardai can do about it.

Now of course, many do pay and take their scolding.

But what many don't realise is that in this country, if you are shameless enough, and have a brazen neck like a jockey's bollocks, you can get away with nearly everything if you really want to. For driving crimes, unless you are crashing and a public danger, the worst you will get for incessant offending is a couple of weeks sentence which will probably be suspended, and even if you do get custodial, you will go to the prison and the governor will be like "sure you are not a violent dangerous lunatic, what are you doing here? Now sign this form for good behaviour and off home let you!"

And having your car siezed occaionally is not really an issue if you are driving bangernomics things picked up for a couple of hundred euros with no NCT on them. If the Gardai sieze it then leave it to them. Joke is on them because they will have to bear the expense of towing it, storing it, and eventual disposing of it when it isn't claimed.

Arnout

Which basically means that the government facilitates such offences. Cashing in a fine is not even a task for the Gardai, they have to chase current baddies, not past baddies.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269462#Comment_120269462

Not really. It is totally corrupt. Testers have been caught in stings loads of times over the years. But they don't give a fúck because they can't loose their jobs over it, at least not for a first offence.

Drifter100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269469#Comment_120269469

€50 note in the ashtray or above the visor works wonders for most hard pressed checkers in the NCT joints

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269679#Comment_120269679

Just to expand on that, when cases were brought for NCT fraud there a few years back when a few fellas were caught out in one go, the court seemed to differentiate between fraudulent passes on cars which were serious safety hazards, and lesser frauds where it was not an unsafe car as such, but still wasn't passable. eg for minor stuff, like emissions, or CE mark on tyres that are otherwise good, or engine warning light etc.

I'd say the non-safety hazard fraudulent passes are rife in the NCT and buddy mechanics who are selling cars.

Then I am sure you'd have to opposite too. NCT testers taking backhanders from mechanic buddies who want loyal customers cars to fail so they can do work on them. Ie, for marginal components like brake discs, saying they are worn excesively, uneven tyre wear, lights not aimed right, suspension bushings worn, or any other number of stupid things.

Corrupt and ridden to the core with cute hurrs, same as everything else here.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269336#Comment_120269336

Well you see the thing is, even an uninsured car/driver is insured at the end of the day. Say if an uninsured driver crashes into you and you want to claim off them, and they either cannot be found because they have no fixed abode and have gone to ground, or they just have no money to pay you with, you can take your claim to the MIBI and they will sort you out. So when you look at it that way, even an uninsured car is insured by MIBI by default.

Eggs For Dinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269250#Comment_120269250

The other taxed car is uninsured, your driving of it is insured through a loophole that is slowly being closed

Whocare

I say the figures are a lot higher with all UA registered cars driving around

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270119#Comment_120270119

Are you claiming that an extension to your insurance policy that you pay for to do exactly as described is a loophole? Are you going to claim windscreen cover is a loophole too?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270119#Comment_120270119

It's not a loophole as my insurance covers it, I am insured to drive the car. I even had an accident in 2017 in that car and produced proof to AGS in blanchardstown. They and my insurance company were satisfied that I was insured, and my insurer paid out.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269829#Comment_120269829

My point was about the proposal to weaken NCT checks by having every goon in a back lane garage issue them.

But if you want to talk about insurance, the problem with the MIBI cover for uninsured drivers is that we’re all paying for it, instead of the drivers who should be paying it.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270249#Comment_120270249

I guess he’s claiming that “having a car” that “isn’t in my name” is a loophole.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270826#Comment_120270826

Bit of a stretch he's making if so. There isnt a loophole, not to mention any being "closed"

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270826#Comment_120270826

From my insurance company they call them Terms & Conditions, so long as the car is not owned by me or my employer I can drive it under third party coverage.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270839#Comment_120270839

How do you “have a car” that’s not owned by you?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270852#Comment_120270852

It's not unheard of to have access to a car owned by somebody else. At one point I lent my car to mate whilst I was working away from home. His partner was driving his car and he was able to legally use my car due to his own driving other cars extension.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270876#Comment_120270876

That sounds exactly like the kind of temporary arrangement these conditions are intended to cover.

The problems (loopholes) arise when someone sets up an artificial situation where they “have a car” on a permanent basis that isn’t in their name.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270852#Comment_120270852

In your household, that's the meaning of "I have" in my instance anyway. Could be owned by a partner (note, not spouse), teenage son etc.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been through an accident and a claim, both AGS and the insurer agreed I was covered so that's good enough for me.

mickdw

That driving extension should be done away with and make the actual policies in place on cars more open driven.

That extension is being abused all over the country with friends regularly putting each other's 2nd cars in their opposite names and driving away then on extension.

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269469#Comment_120269469

same thing happens with the NCT im afraid.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270960#Comment_120270960

Maybe when insurance companies stop abusing us by treating the insurance on a 2nd car as completely fresh without a no claims bonus it will change.

As of now the abuse is only affecting people who might want to make a fully comp claim when they make a mistake. If they cause damage to somebody else the third party cover is still in place, so I'm not sure why other people care.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270960#Comment_120270960

Insure the driver not the car and I'd agree.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270964#Comment_120270964

How do you get your car allocated to your mate at the NCT centre?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270806#Comment_120270806

there's no insurance disc in the windscreen of the car, though, i assume? in the unlikely event of being stopped at a checkpoint, would a garda be able to impound the car?