Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2022 - 2042

Consonata

This was just released this morning.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Greater-Dublin-Area-Transport-Strategy-2022-42.pdf

There seems to be some interesting things happening.

• All Cycle Lanes to be made 24hrs by default. Requests by businesses can be made to reduce operational hours.
• Naval Rail Line confirmed. Delivery 2031-36
• Luas Bray, Lucan and Finglas all seem to be on the cards for that time line also

bk

A few bits new bits that stood out to me:

• They suggest that some of the busconnects corridors won't have enough capacity with the current double decker vehicles and that they will have to look at larger vehicles on some of these routes. They mention articulared single decker buses have 200 person capacity, so it sounds like BRT along a couple of the Bus Connects corridors might be back on the menu.
• They have a list of post 2040 Luas lines which looks very interesting and will likely spur a lot of debate. Many of these new Luas lines will reuse or overlap with some the core bus connects corridors.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152068#Comment_120152068

BRT on the N11 corridor seems like a nobrainer, though the bottleneck at Donnybrook remains.

Shame that Luas Poolbeg has been put so far off given it is such a short piece of track and relatively cheap i'd imagine to build.

Economics101

I love the bit scheduled for 2037 to 2042: "Planning and Design for Dart+ Tunnel".

If that's the Dart Underground tunnel, then there was loads of design and re-design done over the past 10 to 15 years. Another 15 years to start another re-invention of the wheel?

If it's literally what it says : the "Dart+tunnel", chis already exists under the Phoenix Park. Maybe the planners are so divorced from reality they don't know this. In that case I demand my fat consultancy fee.😁

bk

"Shame that Luas Poolbeg has been put so far off given it is such a short piece of track and relatively cheap i'd imagine to build."

Yes, I was very surprised by this! I would have thought that it would be a relatively easy extension compared to Lucan Luas.

brianc89

Also, surely Luas Finglas can be delivered sooner than 2031-36. It's already gone for planning? What's the story?....

Consonata

Seems like the NTA might not want to pursue the Luas Poolbeg project, if they don't do the planned Poolbeg redevelopment project. Seems shortsighted if I'm honest because even if that development doesn't happen, another one might happen

brianc89

Three stand-out points for me:

1) Their "post-2042" Luas plan is ridiculous. They're gonna spend billions upgrading core bus corridors only to dig them all up again 10/15 years later??...

2) What strikes me from the "combined rail map" is the complete lack of a radial route except for the inner city Dart+ tunnel, which itself isn't planned until post-2042.

The success of the N4 radial bus route demonstrates the value of a decent radial route. Metro West will pop its head again soon, I'm sure!...

3) Lucan Luas on the map continues across College Green to Tara Street / Pearse Street. I see enormous challenges here given the disruption this would cause to the North-South corridor around Trinity.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152420#Comment_120152420

Somebody popped open the crayola box at the NTA I'd say for a lot of these luas lines

strassenwo!f

Why do they produce this stuff?

They announce a whole load of projects for the next eight years, some of which are already in train.

Only one rail project is planned for the first period, namely an 'upgrade of the LUAS Green Line', whatever that means.

But then, in the years 2031-2036, there is proposed construction of the metrolink, construction of a line to Navan and construction of no less than three LUAS lines. Any expertise which was gained from workers from the last LUAS project - in, what, 2010? - has probably been lost already and will certainly have been lost by the time any of this comes about.

If there was a functioning public transport planning system in Ireland the personnel from the cross-city line would have moved on to, say, the Lucan LUAS, for work there, and would have been constantly training new people in while improving their own abilities and chances. And all the while developing expertise and knowledge in that whole area.

You can't expect that to happen if there's a 20-year gap between projects. People have to live.

We had the Platform for Change thing back in, what, 2001, which promised a totally impossible citywide LUAS/Metro/DART network by 2015. Then there was the Martin Cullen stunt in Dublin Castle in 2004 (I think) which promised 34 billion euro of apparently 'ring-fenced' money for public transport, all of which eventually went to shore up the State after the financial crash.

Everybody knows that it is complete rubbish to suggest that the metrolink, a line to Navan, and three LUAS lines can be built in the period 2031-2036. That bit needs to be changed.

namloc1980

The endless stream of transport plans and strategies and masterplans with nice graphics and maps and timelines for implementation over the next 20 years, is getting kind of tiresome.

strassenwo!f

It's the Saint Augustine transport plan:

Lord, can we please have a decent transport network in Dublin.

Just, not right now.

Because, if we try to have that, now, it'll cause disruption, and I may not get re-elected.

I'm sure you understand, Lord.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152203#Comment_120152203

They announced the redevelopment of poolbeg west 7 years ago. There is currently not one residential unit under construction or any prospect of one at the site. This must be one of the sites the government hoard to artificially inflate property values. Just like O'Devaney, Saint Michael's, Oscar Traynor Road, the Player Wilson and Gibson site ect. All state land hoarding with consultant fees.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152068#Comment_120152068

"They suggest that some of the busconnects corridors won't have enough capacity with the current double decker vehicles"

So let me get this straight, we had a transport strategy that envisioned a pretty extensive metro network to deal with this problem over a decade ago, we ditched that for a multi-billion euro upgrade to the bus network which is now years overdue and which is looking increasingly like a stillbirth on arrival, and now we're being told that this multi-billion euro plan is going to be totally inadequate? Any idiot standing without a transport or engineering degree could tell you that bus-based public transport is woefully inadequate for a city the size of Dublin. Why can't we just go back to the previous plan?

bk

"So let me get this straight, we had a transport strategy that envisioned a pretty extensive metro network to deal with this problem over a decade ago, we ditched that for a multi-billion euro upgrade to the bus network which is now years overdue and which is looking increasingly like a stillbirth on arrival, and now we're being told that this multi-billion euro plan is going to be totally inadequate? Any idiot standing without a transport or engineering degree could tell you that bus-based public transport is woefully inadequate for a city the size of Dublin. Why can't we just go back to the previous plan?"

"Extensive metro network" - No we didn't, all the transport plans have only ever had the one North - South Metro line and Metro West, not much of a network. We will get the north - south part under Metrolink.

BusConnects was always needed regardless, keep in mind London Bus carries more passengers then London Underground. You need a good bus network in addition to decent rail network.

I do wish they had kept the BRT part of the old bus plan under BusConnects, looks like they have realised that mistake now.

"1) Their "post-2042" Luas plan is ridiculous. They're gonna spend billions upgrading core bus corridors only to dig them all up again 10/15 years later??..."

I wouldn't say that, I'd say that the BusConnects infrastructure work will create the necessary dedicated corridors in which the Luas would be constructed in future. It will make Luas upgrades cheaper in future as that would need to be done either way.

"2) What strikes me from the "combined rail map" is the complete lack of a radial route except for the inner city Dart+ tunnel, which itself isn't planned until post-2042."

They do mention Metro West being a post 2040 possibility in the plan.

brianc89

@cgcsb - responding to your comment from cross border rail thread. Any discussion of DU etc is better discussed here.

It's a shame that the Northern line isn't connected to the western lines. Knocking Ballybough flats is not an ideal solution though - that area is already criss crossed by enough rail lines - we couldn't split it further and knock flats in the process.

I've always thought a new Dart station between North Strand and East Wall would be a great connection point, especially now with the DART+ SW and W lines. CPO'ing some houses in North Strand would be far more realistic.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155142#Comment_120155142

ALL Dart West and South West trains could terminate at Spencer Dock, but allow interchange at North Strand. This would free up the Northern Line for enhanced Dart and Belfast service.

cgcsb

That would solve a lot of issues, particularly for DART. The other issue is there's to be frequent darts mixed with Belfast trains all the way to Drogheda on 2 tracks

loyatemu

we've obviously had a lot of plans and strategies over the years, but it gives me some hope that most of the concrete plans in this one (leaving aside the post-2042 dreamland stuff) has either started or has had some prior work done on it.

• Metrolink - about to go to RO
• Dart+ - in detailed planning, trains have been ordered
• Busconnects Infra - going through planning, slowly
• Fingluas - Detailed design phase
• Bray and Lucan Luas / Navan rail - previously examined so they're not starting entirely from scratch.
• P&R - going through consultation.

If I have one major beef with the plans it's the projected increase in cycling modal share to only 12% over the whole 20 years of the plan, that's laughably unambitious. You could built Copenhagen-level cycling infrastructure in that time frame with the right will and funding (and it would cost much less than any of the other projects in this strategy). When you see what cities like London and Paris have done in less than 10 years... there is obviously the updated Dublin Cycle Network tacked onto this strategy, but it's short on detail and the previous 2013 version remains 90%+ unbuilt. The NTA relies on piecemeal development by individual councils to built the cycling network, and the councils' record is patchy at best.

Economics101

The cover of the new NTA Greater Dublin strategy says it all: going around in endless circles.

Looks like the NTA staff got together to photograph their toy trains and buses.

brianc89

@noelfirl responding to your comment to the all island rail thread.

...

If you change the alignment of DU it becomes an entirely new project.

So much has changed since it was envisaged. PPT has been opened - yes it's far from ideal but that's a major change. The addition of Heuston West is also new, plus two Dart Lines continuing to New Spencer Dock.

The RO itself admits that New Spencer Dock will need to be "temporarily relocated" to facilitate DU - could this be any fluffier?

I wish they would just kill DU entirely (for now) - it's no longer fit for purpose.

alentejo

Living in Terenure am slightly underwhelmed about the plan. This plan confirms that I will not see a tram or metro in Terenure in my life time even though we have been promised a better bus service for 20+ years.

I appreciate that the metro construction and Dart enhancements will commence, I just feel that the Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Templeogue and Rathfarnham corridor requires a better service than currently exists. This morning I saw 8 buses queue at the bus lane in Rathmines coming up to the canal and on average 2 buses managed to get thru on each traffic light sequence meaning that most punters on the bus were delayed by about 5 minutes due to totally inadequate traffic light sequences and poor road design.

I just wish there was more vision on this route which appears totally busy and really high loadings on the buses which transverse this route!

FrankLeeSpeaking

Just basically rehashing the previous stuff they never built with new add on stuff that will never be built.

FrankLeeSpeaking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155409#Comment_120155409

It is a perfect represtation of the infantile minds of the Irish Establishment when it comes to public transport. A theme park ride for the kiddies to get to the seaside. I actually find this graphic pretty depressing. These people have no idea what they are doing and why. If I didn't know better (and maybe I don't), I'd say they were mocking us.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155150#Comment_120155150

In the absence of DU this is a good solution that is affordable and would provide massive value. As you say, send all DARTs coming from the west and southwest to SD. Eliminate path conflicts and make both routes run at maximum capacity. Best option given no DU.

Pete_Cavan

I never see the point in these long term plans, things are inevitably going to change, not least as new infrastructure is built. Anything beyound the next 10 years is obviously going to be reviewed based on the situation at the time, putting it in a plan now doesn't make it any more likely to happen. It seems to be just to pacify people and say "you'll get yours, just be patient". The focus should be on delivering things for the next 10 years, with a review every 5 years looking at the new 5 years as part of the next 10 from that point, if you know what I mean.

I fully expect that extending Metro down the Green Line to Sandyford will be a high priority once Metrolink opens. That would then mean extending the remaining Green Line via UCD and up the N11 would be more attractive. It also would open up the possibility of extending Luas east or west from Finglas meaning Luas to Tyrrelstown or Balgriffen become extensions rather than entirely new lines.

Good to hear that they are finally realising that articulated buses are required for capacity, not to mention speeding up boarding/alighting. I wonder is it the difficulty recruiting drivers which brought on this realisation, less than 100 passengers max per driver with DDs is ridiculous. BusConnects should have been based on articulated buses and would be far more successful had it been. As planning applications there have stalled and some applications wont happen for years, they really should pivot now for those corridors.

One thing which doesn't even get mentioned but I think will be vital for Dublin going forward is a public/active transport bridge across the Liffey. Proper orbital transport can relieve the need for more and more radial Luas lines. A high frequency bus service along the R136+R113 and R121 would link up the western suburbs which would be hugely benefitial in itself but also allow people to transfer to DART+W/SW if going to the city centre (which many people rarely do). It would take enormous pressure off the M50 too.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159735#Comment_120159735

Absolutely spot on.

I really believe an orbital Luas, or Metro preferably, doing the Grand Canal would funnel people from huge areas of the city into the Metro Dart network.

This would benefit the most people rather than prioritizing one radial route over another.

LXFlyer

I think tri-axle double deck buses such as those in Berlin with two staircases would be a better buy - more seats and about the same capacity.

The distances travelled on many of the routes here really aren’t conducive to standing on an articulated vehicle, and that’s before you get into the issue of street space and infrastructure.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159735#Comment_120159735

I'm pro redirecting the LUAS down the N11 once the Sandyford branch gets extended, I do think theres a serious problem of road space though. Particularly bottlenecks such as between the Bus garage at Donnybrook up to the Garda Station. That place becomes a car park during rush hour, and putting two Luas lines down it seems impractical without closing it almost completely to through traffic entirely.

StreetLight

I'm tired of these Crayola projects. Every time something like this is submitted to a Government, they approve it. Then there's a general election, the Government changes and they commission another report. Rinse and repeat.

hoodie6029

In all honesty, our rail infrastructure hasn’t moved on since the foundation of the State.

Green Line was mostly rehashed Harcourt St line. CIE still owned most of the track bed. Similarly the extension out to Broombridge.

Red Line. A lot of runs along the Canal, former canals and various public land - not as much effort to put it there as a completely fresh site.

Really disappointed to see Blanchardstown so badly provided for again. No Luas extension just a BusConnect route that will serve the Village and Shopping Centre. The hospital, Waterville, Corduff, the College, all the industrial estates north of the N3 ignored. Thousands upon thousands live and work here. Do they still think this is all farms?

Blanchardstown is essentially its own city but for transport they seem to treat it like it’s still a rural town that built some housing estates.

Rail to Navan, good luck! Large parts of the track bed was used to lay water pipes for a scheme in the early 2000’s doubt you can run a train line over that. Not to mention the housing Meath Co Co built on it in the 80’s.

Sorry for such a negative post but this plan really ticked me off. Nothing radical, the places that were ignored continue to be ignored.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159735#Comment_120159735

This times 1000, It's hard to believe that at the moment in West Dublin, you have 2 separate urban areas divided by the liffey, with populations of about 200,000 and 100,000 facing eachother and the only way to get across is get in a car and drive over the m50 and up to the year 2042, there is no plan to remedy that. Wtf is that? Obviously they want to protect the toll revenue, promoting sustainable travel is very much secondary to toll revenue

bk

“Good to hear that they are finally realising that articulated buses are required for capacity, not to mention speeding up boarding/alighting. I wonder is it the difficulty recruiting drivers which brought on this realisation, less than 100 passengers max per driver with DDs is ridiculous. BusConnects should have been based on articulated buses and would be far more successful had it been. As planning applications there have stalled and some applications wont happen for years, they really should pivot now for those corridors.”

Ive been saying this since they cancelled the BRT project for BusConnects. I get that BusConnects is a much bigger project that covers the entire city, rather then just the original 3 planned BRT routes, however I strongly feel that the BRT plan should have been merged into the BusConnects plan and those three routes (and maybe more) should have been BRT, while still doing all the other elements of BusConnects (orbital routes, etc.).

That would have given us a much better network then just BusConnects on its own.

As you say, I suspect the driver shortages is changing minds amongst the planners. Issues with drivers is likely to make larger vehicles, more Luas, longer trams, metros and trains, plus fully automated metro/trains more acceptable. The old ideas of just throwing more busses and drivers on isn’t going to work in a high cost of living country with very low unemployment levels and difficult housing availability.

“I think tri-axle double deck buses such as those in Berlin with two staircases would be a better buy - more seats and about the same capacity.”

While Id love to see those Berlin style, dual stairs tri-axles here, specially now that we have gotten use to actually using the rear door, they definitely aren’t a replacement for BRT.

The Berlin tri-axles have a capacity of only 112 people and while that is a nice bump up from the 80 - 90 of the dual axle busses, it is only roughly a 20% increase, versus 200 people on a BRT which is more then a doubling of capacity.

Having said that the Berlin style busses might be a quick capacity bump on suitable routes, until they get into place the infrastructure that would be required for longer BRT vehicles.

LXFlyer

None of that deals with the substantive issue that I raised though.

There’s quite a difference between standing on a train or a normal bus for a significant distance to doing it on an articulated vehicle. It’s anything but as comfortable on the latter.

Many of the Spine routes are very long, far longer than the Glider in Belfast. Just going to the city centre on many of them can and will take over an hour. I would suggest that there would be a significant diminution in passenger comfort using articulated vehicles. Far more standees travelling for significant periods isn’t an improvement in my opinion.

bk

"None of that deals with the substantive issue that I raised though.

There’s quite a difference between standing on a train or a normal bus for a significant distance to doing it on an articulated vehicle. It’s anything but as comfortable on the latter."

The Berlin tri-axles have only 80 seats. It depends on the layout, but some bi-articulated buses have as many as 130+ seats. I'd expect any configuration Dublin would go with would have at least as many seats as the Berlin buses.

Then there is the whole conversation if all of those seats are really even used on Double Decker buses. Obviously the seats upstairs are inaccessible to mobility impaired folks, plus there is the very frequent issue of people not realising that there are seats free upstairs.

BTW I think you might be mixing up the original BRT plan, with what we are talking about in the GDA plan now. The original BRT plan was for 18m long single articulated buses. The GDA plan is talking about 25m long bi-articulated buses. These are long buses with very big capacity. Almost as long as the original Luas (30m on the Red Line). By comparison the Berlin buses are less then 14m, so they were somewhat equivalent to the 18m BRT, but these 25m buses are a whole different ball game.

alentejo

Not convinced that longer buses are suitable for Dublin Streets. Some of the turns that buses are required to take at tight enough, coupled with road design seeming always hell bent on designing tighter turning radii.

p_haugh

Alexander Dennis last year announced a fully electric tri-axle ALX500EV for the US market. If that gets announced for markets this side of the pond, that could be an option for the NTA.

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/news/2021/june/alexander-dennis-unveils-its-first-zero-emission-three-axle-double-deck-bus-the-enviro500ev-charge-for-north-america/

Now they'd obviously have to go to tender for such an order, but there isn't much more choice in the market at the moment. That may change in a few years time however.

Grandeeod

Yet another plan that promises rail projects and yet another plan that will fail to deliver. How far does the state have to go before people wake up to the utter BS that they spout via report after report and plan after plan? I guess a new generation arrives to buy into the crap. From Metro to Dart Underground to a railway to Navan. I've been there, bought the T-Shirt, learned to play the banjo and remain confident that none of it will happen. It doesn't make me happy by the way. I said this here 13 odd years ago under a different guise.......reinvent the wheel. That's all they do and it will go on and on.

VeryOwl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162913#Comment_120162913

Sadly you are as right now as then.

How apt that the cover is a bunch of toy projects swirling down the drain. Public transport in Ireland is a landfill of glossy PDFs and broken promises, and this trash is just the latest to add to the heap. The report is still talking about Phoenix Park Tunnel as if it's recent progress. It highlights the paucity of what's been delivered.

There's no urgency in Government to build any of this or to make our cities liveable, and it breeds cynicism sadly.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162913#Comment_120162913

I got fed up waiting and was lucky enough to be able to emigrate to somewhere with decent public transport. Since I left Dublin in January 2009 the city has added perhaps a dozen miles of new Luas extensions (no new lines) and a couple of miles of heavy rail on and existing alignment in the suburbs. That is depressingly little in 14 years. Just for comparison, Munich (not where I live but comparable in size to Dublin) has built its second interconnector in that time frame.

CatInABox

I get that a lot of people have intense scepticism about these plans, and usually I'd agree with you. This time there is a significant difference, absolutely massive in fact. Ireland has signed up to massively reduce our emissions, and because we didn't want to stand up to our largest emitters, we're now in the situation where our transport sector has to reduce it's emissions by 51%. We're going to face growing fines if we don't hit these targets, and that seems to be focusing minds a fair bit. Politicians don't like being responsible for bad news, and these fines are going to be real bad news.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163993#Comment_120163993

This is the key point. Public transport, especially electrified public transport is absolutely necessary to meet our climate targets.

Factoring that into the CBAs (which I am not sure DPER is capable of) makes all the difference.

namloc1980

I'm beyond sceptical at this stage, just tired of an endless stream of plans and maps.

None of the Luas extensions are due to be delivered before 2031 per the strategy. When you consider that the Luas cross city was opened in December 2017, it'll be at least c.15 years before the next inch of Luas track is opened after that. We should be continuously rolling from one project onto the next.

And then consider that the most advanced of the extensions, Luas Finglas, adds just 4km and 4 stops to the network! Hopefully elements of DART+ will be up and running by the end of this decade but overall the lack of urgency is mindboggling and very disappointing.

cgcsb

I would say DART+ West will be largely operational by 2030. I cant see Coastal DART or South West happening tbh. The latter is basically a level crossing scheme that just won't ever be accepted in Sandymount. They won't even accept a cycle lane. And then South West is a fairly pointless project providing 10 minute frequency to isolated rural stations only.

I think finglas luas might be delivered early. Its an 'easy' project in terms of engineering and public support.

I don't think metrolink will happen but that's just me. Some people believe it will.

I think the bus corridors will only be partially built but it'll be an improvement none the less.

I expect the 2027 strategy to be more or less the same as this one with dates further in the future.

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163833#Comment_120163833

Munich has a metro area of 6 million people how is that comparable to Dublin. Not defending Dublin's CRAP transport network mind.

Murph85

This plan is a total and utter farce, dublin heading for two million people and two pathetic light rail lines are all it can muster after the initial boom, then this boom, with tens of billions being thrown around like confetti with increased government spending! LOL!

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168622#Comment_120168622

The Porto metropolitan area has a population of about 1.5m, comparable to Dublin. They have an extensive Metro, partly on disused rail lines, partly underground partly street running. Its a step up from LUAS, but not quite full heavy rail.

They are currently extending and you see costs for 3 or 4 km underground quoted in the 100s of millions of €, not Billions. I'd love to get the frank opinions of the Porto engineers and operators about the NTA circus.

And Portugal is much poorer than Ireland. I think we can learn a lot from other countries, including from the UK, whare we can learn how not todo things.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169026#Comment_120169026

In fairness, this is what Frank McDonald has been arguing for

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169441#Comment_120169441

Yes, but my main point is the relatively low cost and high speed with which decisions are made and projects actually getting done. We need some people who have a proven track record to come here and have a good hard look.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168622#Comment_120168622

I was astounded to see a figure of 6 million for the metro area but it isn't because Wiki is taking the "metro area" figure from what is called the "Metropolregion" on German, but this is a vast area, almost half the size of the entire state of Bavaria which is itself about the size of Ireland. It would be like including Cork or Belfast in Dublin's metro area, which is clearly wrong. The "Metropolregion" simply doesn't translate as "metro area" which is what we might otherwise define as the city plus its commuter belt. A "Metropolregion" is something like "city hinterland" or something like that. For example the entire state or Brandenburg belongs to the Metropolregion around Berlin but I assure you, there are virtually no commuters into Berlin from more than about 20km out into the surrounding state.

There's a map here:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolregion_M%C3%BCnchen

A real "commuter belt" definition might be the Region München:

https://www.region-muenchen.com/der-rpv/region

This contains about 2.9m people and would be about the size of Leinster, which has 2.5m people. So, highly comparable. The populations of the urban area of Munich and Dublin would be very similar.

cgcsb

I was thinking that. Munich certainly doesn't seem that big and and the metro region in question according to wiki seemed to go all the way to the suburbs of nurnburg, really not comparable to the greater Dublin area