Who is at fault?

saabsaab

In the situation where a bicycle runs into an opened door of a car who is at fault?

Does it depend on where it happens or how?

It is a fairly regular event in cities. Someone opens their drivers door after pulling up and an unseen bike hits their door. Often the cyclist ends up on the road possibly injured. I would have thought the car driver was at fault for not seeing the cyclist in time often a side mirror has a blind spot. However, I have heard some say that a cyclist should be able to stop travel more slowly or keep out from parked cars?

Jim_Hodge

Motorist put an obstacle in the way without due care.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148102#Comment_120148102

I would think so but is that the legal situation in all cases? Does a road user need to be able to stop at all times?

standardg60

If you opened the door in front of a passing truck would you be making the same argument that they should have stopped in time?

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148117#Comment_120148117

yeh...he hit my door from behind and I was stationary, your honour.

saabsaab

To complicate things would it change if it was at night and the bike didn't have a light?

Jim_Hodge

Clutching at straws....most likely not.

Wildly Boaring

What if the cyclist didn't have hiviz, a helmet or a bell and weren't in the cycle lane.

BINGO

CramCycle

Was it open in good time for the cyclist to see it or did you open it with no time for them to react? The blindspot sstatement makes no sense as if they hit your door, they would not have been in your blindspot because it effectively doesn't exist in that range (or your mirrors are not set right). Did you look over your shoulder before opening the door?

In a civil courtcase (and potentially a criminal one) the lack of lights might make a difference but in reality, presuming you are in a town with streetlights, then they are two seperate offences of which you are both in the wrong.

Liam O

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148555#Comment_120148555

Not sure if serious. I would imagine in this situation the driver is opening his door onto a cycle lane or where there could be reasonable expectation a cyclist (or any other vehicle) could be travelling. What difference would a hiviz, helmet or a bell make in this situation?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148484#Comment_120148484

If you didn't check your mirror beforehand then you have no idea whether it would have made a difference or not.

If you didn't check your mirror then you're at fault and should own up.

Depends. Was the door open long or opened into the cyclist's path?

Gavlor

I once took the door off a parked car. Guy flung it open as I was passing on a tight street without looking but the guards said that in that scenario the oncoming vehicle has right of way.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148484#Comment_120148484

Tbh a cyclist on the road at night without a light doesnt have too much respect for his own safety. Did it myself when I was young and it was suicidal

erlichbachman

Cyclist is at fault, they should cycle around and avoid the door, and they should also cough up for the damage if they do wreck the door

bladespin

The situation would decide; a parked car with an open door, or a parked car's door being opened as a cyclist approached, further complicated by the 1m rule.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149900#Comment_120149900

Hard to avoid when someone throws it open without looking.

ohnonotgmail

Motorists should learn the Dutch Reach to avoid hurting cyclists.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149900#Comment_120149900

And the cyclist should valet the car and buy the driver a coffee afterwards too, right?

The Courts seem to disagree with you.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cyclist-hit-by-van-door-awarded-e30000-in-damages-1333476.html

erlichbachman

Very nice, 30 bags for less pain than someone gets playing Sunday morning football

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150143#Comment_120150143

If you are getting wrist fractures playing sunday morning football then something has gone wrong. anyway, your assertion that the cyclist is at fault is just wrong.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150143#Comment_120150143

Let’s do a test. You cycle, I’ll hit you with a car door, and we’ll assess the pain levels then?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150161#Comment_120150161

Surely even thinking of such an act breaks the sacred covenant of cyclists

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151341#Comment_120151341

I’m not sure. I’ll bring it up at next week’s meeting of all cyclists and see what the response is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149949#Comment_120149949

This, it was something taught to me when learning and is instinctive to me now but not sure how common it is among instructors here nowadays.

Basically you open a car door with the hand furthest away from it when getting out, forcing you to turn in your seat a little and helping you see behind. Not just good for avoiding taking out bikes and scooters but keeping your door attaching to you car too.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148555#Comment_120148555

None of which are legal requirements of cyclists. Why are you bringing that into it, when the OP asked a question about legally required lights, except to derail the conversation?

If you pulled out in front of a speeding car which had no lights on at night, would they bear any responsibility for that collision?

Slightly different below, but clearly the court decided that disabling automatic lights (along with speeding) contributed so heavily to the crash, that the driver who pulled out in front was not convicted.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7913125/Carer-36-cleared-causing-death-dangerous-driving.html

seagull

Actually, a bell is a legal requirement for all bicycles. Not that it changes the liability.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151441#Comment_120151441

I would say the 100mph speeds was more a factor than not having lights.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149900#Comment_120149900

This actually happened to me, car door opened in front of me & I ploughed in to it, no time to brake. Thankfully it fully opened (with the wind behind it) instead of me hitting the sharp edge of the door.

Lots of damage to the car, front quarter panel, door, window, interior and the wing mirror, bike was a right off (bent frame). Gardai & his insurance company told him he was at fault but he disagreed (he wasn't the brightest), insurance company paid out & I got a new bike.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151489#Comment_120151489

Probably yes, but the lights were contributory too. My point really is that a legitimate question by the OP is met with jokes to attempt to undermine them.

mikeecho

It's up to the motorist, who is alighting from the vehicle, into a live traffic lane to ensure that the way is clear.

Edit.. what if the person in the car Fung the door open into a pedestrian.

Same at fault seinario... (Spelling??)

This is coming from someone who thinks a lot of (not all) cyclists are dīcks, going 3 a breast or like our friend in cork JG who takes an entire lane to himself on very very busy multilane roads, then goes to Twitter with edited video.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151623#Comment_120151623

Most of the posts aren't jokes, they're legitimate answers. Anyway, the thread belongs in the Learning to Drive forum. Anybody that's passed a driving test knows the answer.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151996#Comment_120151996

Which is why I didn't quote every post, just one.

The actual answer to the OP's question is that you cannot tell from a forum post alone, as it depends very heavily on the particular situation, but primarily on how long the car door was open for.

How about you post an actual answer if you're so sure you know the particulars of this case?

My answer: It depends mostly on how long the door had been open for. In my opinion only:

• Over 4 seconds - cyclist at fault.
• Between 2-4 seconds: Impossible to say, but driver would most likely be found at fault.
• Below 2 second: Person in the car at fault.

saabsaab

Some drivers get angry even if they open the door after pulling in and you narrowly miss their opening door.

On the 1M rule does that apply to the cyclist passing parked cars or just drivers passing cyclists?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152607#Comment_120152607

No it doesn't, and it's not even relevant given the car was stationary, though some cyclists choose to not cycle in the 'door zone' as it's called so they can avoid the possibility of being killed.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151623#Comment_120151623

You failed to spot the sarcasm. Cyclists and motorcyclists often have a black sense of humour from bitter experience with clueless car drivers.

A motorcycle is not obliged to be lit up during the day so that is not a contributory factor in the collision. You might as well say that it was a contributory factor he was on a bike and not in a car instead 🙄

L1011

I do not believe this thread, or [m]any of the OPs other threads on this forum, have been posted in good faith.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152950#Comment_120152950

No I see it alright, (and as a cyclist I do get it), but it totally derails what is an otherwise fair question from the OP.

If a child was to run out from behind a parked car, a driver would be told that they should have "expect(ed) the unexpected".

Just because something is not legally required does not mean that it cannot be counted as a contributory factor in a collision.

It is legal to drive in the rain, and also to buy tyres which are rated F for wet braking, which take 18m longer to stop. All legal, but could very easily contribute to a collision.

The internet in general is black and white, but real life is shades of grey. Noone here can say who's fault a near miss is, it could very well be either the cyclist or driver/passenger.

In all honesty though, an insurance company probably wouldn't want to waste legal fees trying to apportion blame, so would probably pay out even if the cyclist hit a door which had been open for 10 minutes.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151358#Comment_120151358

Send me a copy of the minutes. Not a whole lot else going on at this time of year

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120153394#Comment_120153394

I don't understand?

I just posted some reasonably straightforward questions.

'In the situation where a bicycle runs into an opened door of a car who is at fault? Does it depend on where it happens or how?'

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152161#Comment_120152161

I did, not only that, I posted up personal experience of it actually happening along with the results.

Your "seconds" scenario is laughable as you don't take in to account the speed of the bike, stopping distance, road surface, road conditions, room to manoeuvre etc... it's obvious you don't drive or cycle.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154532#Comment_120154532

Sorry, I didn't actually see that you had posted that. Hopefully you weren't hurt too badly.

At first it was as clear cut as "anyone who'd done a driving test knows the answer". So I included time (which you mentioned it in the first line of your post - "no time to react".) as a key factor in apportioning blame, and now it's about road surface and conditions. Which is it?

For the sake of argument if the door has been open for 10 minutes and a cyclist hits it. Who is at fault? Would rain make a difference then?

Now how about 10 seconds? Should the cyclist have seen it?

And 1 second?

I didn't completely pull 2 seconds out of thin air. A 2s gap is usually what motorists are told to give to a car in front as a rule of thumb, which encompasses reaction time and braking distance across a multitude of scenarios like you describe above. It's 4s in the rain. If we give the same to cyclists, then absolutely the motorist is responsible below 2s, but above 4s is really past the point where you should be able to stop in time.

I live under 2km from Dublin city centre, so cycle and drive there pretty much daily, have never been in any collision, and have had precious few close calls too. That experience actually affects me when mountain biking though, I have terrible target fixation, as it's ingrained in me not to swerve to avoid something in case I went under a car in the city.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155444#Comment_120155444

At first it was as clear cut as "anyone who'd done a driving test knows the answer". So I included time (which you mentioned it in the first line of your post - "no time to react".) as a key factor in apportioning blame, and now it's about road surface and conditions. Which is it?

all of them. there isn't a single factor to consider. Also your 2 seconds is nonsense. You cannot stop dead in 2 seconds, or even 4 seconds. you leave a 2 second gap to the car in front when driving because that factors in that the car in front takes time to stop. the 2 seconds is your reaction time to the other car hitting the breaks.

Hotblack Desiato

Exactly, you can't compare following another vehicle to a stationary object being flung into your path without warning.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155493#Comment_120155493

Which is why I didn't say that. I said "above 4s is really past the point where you should be able to stop in time".

To repeat what I said from the outset, yes there are a number of factors to consider, but they can all be collated by time, and I don't think my estimations are way off the mark tbh.

In any conditions, if a toddler wandered into the road, and it took a full four seconds before they were hit by a cyclist, I'm pretty confident that the cyclist would be found primarily at fault. Would be be acceptable for a motorist, to break a red light a full four seconds after it went orange, and claim that they couldn't stop in time? That would be nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155611#Comment_120155611

I'm not saying that. My point was to put some semblance of reasoning around simplified statements which effectively said that the motorist was always at fault.

You're going to the other extreme saying a door was flung into the cyclist path. What if it was open for 10 minutes?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156157#Comment_120156157

nobody is saying that the motorist is at fault if the door was open for 10 minutes. stop being ridiculous.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156201#Comment_120156201

Best not leave a door open into traffic that long!

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155444#Comment_120155444

In the situation where a bicycle runs into an opened door of a car the car driver is at fault Kirving, anyone who's done a driving test knows this is the case. You don't leave your door open for ten minutes in an active driving lane, anyone who's done their driving test knows this is the case.

You can go all rain man about it again, but you've been told what the case is, so I'd suggest you take it on board and move on.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156201#Comment_120156201

This IS what's being said, see below. And I agree, it is ridiculous.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156453#Comment_120156453

In other words: "road users have absolutely no responsibility to react to react to any unexpected hazards in their path, regardless of how long it may have been there".

Sounds like a license for car drivers to crash into anything that shouldn't be, but happens to be, in their way. Nice.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156517#Comment_120156517

Nope. That's not what I said. You've actually managed to have an argument with yourself. Don't know why you're quoting other people and myself.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156453#Comment_120156453

TBh it may not be good practice but if someone drives or rides into a door that's sat open for 10 mins then they are at fault, in reference to the driving test it's still a parked vehicle that's being run into.