Right to Housing Referendum

themoone

The Government is set to call a referendum on the Right for Housing.

Right to housing referendum: Recommendations due this month on wording of vote – The Irish Times

Right to housing referendum: Recommendations due this month on wording of vote – The Irish Times

In what I understand the aim is to limit Article 43 of the Consitution in favour of the Common Good, however, the Common Good is already invoked in the Consitution so I am wondering why the need for an amendment to the constitution considering the government in the past number of years have sited it as a reason for numerous legislation.

It is also interesting to note the ICHR is warning again this referendum.

A Referendum on a Right to Housing – Article 43 of the Constitution – Irish Council for Human Rights (ichr.ie)

I have also noted that over the years when Germany (especially Berlin) passes a law then Ireland seems to adopt it very shortly after. Rent Controls is an example. And I can not help but think that the legislation passed in Germany in Sept. 2021 has encouraged the government to follow suit.

https://www.dw.com/en/berliners-vote-yes-on-property-expropriation-but-what-happens-now/a-59070328

I know it is supposed to apply to large scale Landlords but are we sure that this will not trickle down to the small landlord with one or two properties? Will this extend to the old people in homes or hospitals? Germany voted to apply to large scale the wording of the Irish bill does not seem to be so specific. But feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Grolschevik

Interesting thread potential.

However, I wouldn't pay too much attention to anything the self-styled "Irish Council for Human Rights" says. It's a small, right-wing and anti-vax pressure group with an impressive but misleading name, founded by a single barrister. You can even see this confirmed in their (admittedly extensive) article on the history of this that you link to. They must have asked four or five times "so what's the real agenda here?", before basically concluding "communism!"

That said, it's a good discussion to have.

Danzy

Hard to take such a referendum serious.

Jinglejangle69

We will be mortgage free soon!!

Ah the entitled brigade will have a field day. Literally we can all say I’m entitled to a house now.

Best news of 2023!!

1874

Just skimmed over this now, coming from Darragh O'Brien (who I consider to be a complete moron),

Id be very concerned and I think everyone should be (not just homeowners).

I think Referendums/Changes to the constitution should be very carefully considered. Im not sure where the suggestion this is potentially targeted at large scale landlords comes from? or that it it couldnt then be used as a blunt instrument to make even worse knee jerk responses to future problems for FFG. Id be most concerned how it could be misused and applied to any individual owner. I suspect given FFG seem to be in bed with/invited in Vulture funds, that this will never affect vulture funds, and will only affect small landlords (which I am thankfully not one anymore).

I actually came here looking to see if there was any kind of response to something I saw elsewhere online where the moron in question was saying tax relief would be restored for white goods (must have been removed since my exit, I mean whoop de fcuking doo), do they think thats going to fix years of their screw ups.

As I was curious if the FFG conglomerate had come up with any new ideas to stop the previous and impending masse exit from the market by small landlords. The entire housing problem has been created by FFG wether they were officially in partnership together or not, rather than reducing the tax burden on small landlords or even shift some benefit their way by imposing some small taxes on vulture funds, who I think should be taxed at the same rate as small landlords and reductions only passed on if they are passed on across the board, because it seems reasonable to tax small landlords to the hilt (but vulture funds export their profits without paying anything having bought properties for cents on the euro).

I think the mulling over permitting white goods to be allowed tax relief is a smokescreen (mere breadcrumbs) but to distract small landlords while a referendum change which I hadnt heard of is seemingly on the cards.

Referendum changes concern me, because it can easily be framed in such a way that neither option is preferable (like Lisbon) so it's nearly better to not do anything, ie make no changes, because there appears to be no benefit to anyone to make changes to the constitution which will never be reversed. With their record of knee jerk legislative introductions for Rentals, I think it is appalling (but probably unsurprising) that eventually they would try change the Constitution to cover for their history of screwing up housing in this country.

Maybe I'm not wording what I want to say as well as I could, but having just seen this, I dont know what to think except that it could be worse than I think or know. FFG have a history of letting the market decide outcomes, which imo doesnt favour a beneficial outcome for any, other than a small cohort of vested interests (some wont believe that includes small landlords, but I think this will hit small landlords the worst and subsequently renters) Truly FFG is looking out for vested interests, their close pals and supporters ONLY if they think this is the correct way to fix problems with housing which they have caused by incompetence.

I believe people have a right to (affordable) housing in some way, it is just not possible with govt inaction and Council refusals to do what is needed (approve and build housing), by all means farm it out to private entities to build, maintain and manage, but keep ownership instead of giving away public land for next to nothing. Why doesnt the Govt impose taxes of some description on Vulture funds? OR Introduce legislation that forces Councils to approve planning and implementing construction of hosuing?? I think most Citizens would support that, just build housing. FFG have done sweet fcuk all in their tenure about the problem except kick the problem down the road. It would make you think their actions are intentional.

Id put nothing past FG or FF in the last 15-20 years, but they get worse and worse, its always been FFG, 2 sides of the same coin.

The Spider

Anyone who owns a house and votes in favour of this needs their head examined, it’ll remove property rights that we all have and it’s not just small landlords that could be affected, homeowners too could find themselves on the bad side of this legislation. What if you’re lucky enough to have a large garden in an area in Dublin that has now become desirable? Can the government just go and cpo the land to build a block of apartments, because y’know right to housing.

Same applies in the country what if your house is on a couple of acres but is now close to town because the town expanded out and, can they just use this to take your land and build?

What if you’re an elderly couple in a large house because your children have moved on, can you be forcibally moved to alternative accommodation because your house would suit a family?

Can it be used to ensure spare bedrooms take in lodgers?

All of the above are extreme examples, but who knows? When you vote away your rights to property everything can be on the table, not at first but over years they’ll bounce back to pointing at this legislation to force through whatever they see fit.

Everyone is obliged to vote down this nonsense to at least protect the rights of future generations, property rights have Erin enshrined in the constitution since the foundation of the state, and shouldn’t be changed just because the current government has made a mess of housing.

What are they hoping to achieve with this referendum?

Currently it would appear they can make changes to the rental market whenever they feel like it. Now are they going to start distributing other peoples property to appease some voters.

I feel its a way of them making it look like they are doing something without actually doing anything.

Unwittingly the government are doing everything within their power to slow down the provision of housing both rental and permanent and I don't see this referendum helping matters.

moceri

If Ireland provides free housing... you can be sure the Airports and Ferry ports will be blocked with people trying to get in. The old adage.. If you put enough food on the Bird table.....

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064981#Comment_120064981

A right to housing does not mean "Free housing" surely?

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064996#Comment_120064996

What else could it mean? If you don’t have a house or the means to get one, then a house would have to be provided because you have a right to it, just as you have a right to unemployment support etc.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064960#Comment_120064960

If it was fast tracked my guess would be to extend the eviction ban, but given it will take a while it's most likely just to be seen to have done everything possible to extend it and not get blamed for not doing so by the electorate.

I don't think they are unwittingly doing anything, they are just looking after their own political careers, that's what politicians do.

If doing the right thing means you lose your job then the incentive is not to do the right thing.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065062#Comment_120065062

No other things you've a right to are guaranteed to be free. Food, water, education, etc.

The 'right to housing' thing is window dressing to try shut up a few loud opposition TDs, the actual intent is cutting off some methods of delaying stuff through the courts really.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064960#Comment_120064960

What are they hoping to achieve with this referendum?

I presume the only reason for this proposal from both FG & FF is to win votes from SF. This referendum has nothing to do with housing and is purely electioneering

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065063#Comment_120065063

One thing it may do (puts on conspiracy hat) is to take away Sinn Féin’s ability to have a referendum on it if they get voted in at the next election, it’ll come down to the wording, subtly word it as a right to housing good, or subtly word it as right to housing bad?

Either way this referendum is going to happen by thi# government or the next, it’s up to the citizenry to shoot it down and make sure it doesn’t come back again

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065071#Comment_120065071

Laws of unintended consequences, 10-20 years down the line this legislation can be rolled out and applied to anything to with housing, needs to be nipped in the bud now

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065062#Comment_120065062

Is there anything in the constitution that mentions unemployment support or otherwise?

There are plenty of things we have a right to. Doesn't make them free ....

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065302#Comment_120065302

Well that’s maybe the point, it would specifically say that there is a right to housing in the constitution, as you’ve pointed out those other things we have rights to aren’t in the constitution (that I know of) but housing wouldbe and it would gain significant weight in any legal argument by the fact that it’s there in the constitution.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065331#Comment_120065331

There are lots of things that are specifically referenced in the constitution that aren't free..a few posters have given examples.

Just to add. I believe a referendum on this would be a complete waste of time and resources. Time and resources that should be better spent on fixing the issue rather than being all aspirational about it, as governments of the past few decades have been.

namloc1980

It'll be interesting to see the wording but I'd be very wary of such an amendment to the Bunreacht.

timmyntc

Nothing good can come of the referendum.

At best, the wording matches that of our current laws etc so that nothing really changes.

At worst, the wording will be over-reaching and the constitutional right to housing will be used in support of CPOs, bad planning decisions, indefinite eviction bans, squatting, retention for illegally constructed houses, etc. Depending on just how bad the wording is, it could open up a pandora's box of legal consequences.

SwimClub

Everyone is entitled to a house but there are not enough houses so where is this going?

The only logical conclusion is to enshrine a game of musical chairs in the constitution, to the tune of amhran na bhFiann.

The anthem will be played out over large tannoys on the streets while people file from house to house daily and if you are in a house when it stops it's yours for the night!

A proportion of people left on the street are randomly shot by a large doll robot wearing a balaclava.

I'm currently pitching the movie rights to this to Netflix as 'Sinn Fein meets Squid Game'

pauliebdub

Although the wording is important and it hasn't been stated how the constitutional change will affect our lives, the fear of unintended consequences like squatting, private property and public spaces being taken over and developed will ensure that middle ireland won't vote for it.

Senature

"Housing" is a poorly chosen term as people are interpreting it as a house. Surely the proposal is actually a right to adequate accommodation.

As said already wording is key. As a modern society, should we not aim for everyone to have somewhere to live? Many people complain about refugee's rights in Ireland, often seeing them as superceeding the rights of Irish citizens. Might this proposed legislation help to address this?

I'm no major fan of recent governments, particularly when it comes to the disaster they have all made of housing. However, it seems like anything they propose or do is seen as wrong.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066015#Comment_120066015

It's more than that, it's putting that into the constitution to give it equal or stronger status to property rights.

We can agree that people should have a right to accommodation without putting a clause into the constitution, why do we need to do that?

It doesn't change anything in terms of enabling the government to spend more on providing housing etc., they can do that already.

This is being done specifically to undermine property rights or more likely as a political stunt to be seen to 'do something' to win votes.

What you need to realise is that they are not doing this to help the housing situation, they are doing it to help themselves get re-elected/to reduce cards the opposition can play to win votes. They are a bunch of cretins.

If you have a spare room (whether owning or renting), currently you have the option to take in refugees, but you don't have to because you have a choice as you have property rights that let you decide what is done with your property. If the refugees right to accommodation has equal or stronger status than your property rights and that's enshrined in the constitution you may have no choice, the government will be able to move them into your property.

We need to be very careful about changing the constitution.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064996#Comment_120064996

Once you establish a 'right' to something, then the next step is to oblige the state that this 'right' be vindicated.

This proposal is like 'mon & apple pie' - we can all agree that it's a very nice idea. But it's surely impossible to vindicate this right in any sense that would be acceptable to most citizens.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066015#Comment_120066015

When you say "all" you're referring to FF & FG right

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066245#Comment_120066245

Odd clarification to seek but I'm referring to all and any parties and independents in government over the past 20 years, and all county councillors. Nobody deserves a free pass on the continual housing policy failures.

Gusser09

Everyone already has a right to a house.....except for the middle classes who pay for it.

touts

This has all the hallmarks of yet another disastrous change to the constitution that we will be lamenting and fighting to change again within 20 years.

At the very least there will be a mass exodus of small landlords from the market. You would be insane not to sell a property when the tenant might have a greater claim to it with a stroke of a pen by a populist minister. Who wants that stress.

What is needed is more houses and apartments. Spend the millions spent on this idiotic referendum on building a few hundred houses and then keep building.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066015#Comment_120066015

"Shelter" for everyone is an aspiration and as that's a fair point that you make.

Again, I would much rather see the resources put into solving the problem than scoring politicial points on a pure BS move.

Q&A

Can someone please direct me to the part of the Constitution that is source of all our housing problems? This 100 year old wording that is now holding back the ability of the State to build or people not buy??

Show me the offending segments and then I can way up the pros and cons of the referendum. Otherwise there's just the hint of Brexit about this. Catchy phrases about taking back control and the ability to solve all our short term problems without giving any thought to what this could mean in the long term.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067050#Comment_120067050

Article 40.3.2: “The state shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may be from unjust attack

and in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every

citizen”

Article 43:

1.1 The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right,

antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2 The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private

ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath or inherit property.

2.1 The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing

provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2 The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights

with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

--------------------

The current state of affairs is that the state is interfering with the right to transfer property as per the current eviction ban that blocks vacant sale of property.

Proposed changes to the constitution would give them the right to do this permanently, i.e. to stop someone selling their property or giving it to a family member that needs somewhere to live, or move back in themselves if returning from working abroad or in a separation situation etc.

I can't see any other reason for this proposed referendum, it's to enable the compulsory seizure of private property to provide housing, albeit in return for a rent controlled rent.

But the law of unintended consequences means that the changes could open the door to all sorts of infringements on property rights in general.

SwimClub

The result of this will be an even bigger flood of small private landlords selling up before it is enacted and a reduction in the number of tenancies, the number of registered tenancies already reduced by 20,000 between 2020 and 2021. I expect the drop was even higher last year, it's insane at a time of massive increasing demand to be actually losing units from the rental market. The government response has been to scare more small landlords out at an even higher rate with this populist bullshot that will make things even worse, it's a grand political gesture that they obviously hope might win them some votes from Sinn Fein.

touts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067130#Comment_120067130

So basically they are proposing to remove constitutional protection of property rights roughly a year before we are likely to get a left SF government propped up by a hard-line Trotskyist party (PBP) who would love to nationalise all property and allocate things like houses based on need rather than wealth.

This has ZERO chance of passing. And what's more Fianna Fail know that. They are only proposing it because they think the focus in the debate will be on what SF/PBP might do if in power.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067130#Comment_120067130

The eviction ban does nothing to block vacant sale of property. If you have a vacant property, you can sell it tomorrow if you wish.

If you have non-vacant property, you can also sell it tomorrow should you wish to do so. What you need is a willing seller and a willing buyer and a price that is agreeable to both. Same as any sale.

Donald Trump

You also have the Constitutional right to earn a living (It is an unenumerated right). But that doesn't mean you have a right to any job you want any time you want it.

The right to housing does not mean a right to be given a house anymore than the right to earn a living means the right whatever job you want.

dennis72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067369#Comment_120067369

A non vacant property that is open to more regulation is worth less and may only appeal to a smaller market

Voting no here govt/local councillors can't be trusted with removal rights to privately owned property as we see already with treatment of ll could happen to owners and continuous planning obstruction.

We also have an open border includes all who enter illegally or not.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067484#Comment_120067484

You might get less for it than otherwise. But it is overly dramatic to say that nobody would buy it, or to try to say that the law prohibits someone from selling.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067274#Comment_120067274

Part of me thinks the reason FFG are bringing this up now and putting it to a referendum is to neutralise Sinn Fein, if this goes to the vote and loses, then that’s it put away for a generation and Sinn Fein can’t use it for leverage in the run up to the election, every time they bring it up it’ll be knocked back and told we had a vote on it, of course this would be a calculated risk on FFG’s behalf because if it passes we’re in a world of sh***e, and this is exactly what happened with Brexit.

The other part of me thinks, they’re not that smart and they’re just following what they percieve to be the populist thing to do, because there’s a few people shouting loudly, the silent majority are who you have to think about.

Yurt2

Some juicy 1950s hysteria in here. For instance, the Netherlands has a right to housing provision in their constitution. Last time I checked it was a well functioning market economy with vindicated property rights.

But carry on with the dire warnings of Stalinist property seizures regardless.

cruizer101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067853#Comment_120067853

You're probably right but that still raises the question, Why?

Whats the point in changing the constitution, what extra powers will it give them that they don't have now that will enable them to solve the housing crisis?

If it won't give them extra powers then why are we wasting time have a referendum, the resources put into it would be better spent on actual housing.

I realise without seeing any proposed wording any argument is somewhat moot, but again why not at least make clear what they are hoping to achieve with it.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067957#Comment_120067957

There has been a massive drop in tenancies over the last 5 years, 7% drop in 20/21, the RTB stopped publishing the figures they are so bad so there are none available for last year but it's surely worse as twice as many small landlords exited last year as the year before. Once this eviction ban lifts there is going to be carnage, many small landlords who had no intention of leaving are getting out now because of these extreme interventions and the ineptitude of the RTB (3 years to evict non paying tenants).

The only policy response to all of this is to do something that will make the situation worse and encourage even more to sell up.

You're asking why, the answer is to win votes off of Sinn Fein or to take one of their cards off them before the next election.

Same as usual with politicians!

I suppose a lot will depend on how its written and its early days yet.

The Dutch it would appear focused on the governments responsibilities in providing low cost/social housing and gave the government more powers to control rents.

In Ireland we have a state that has no interest in direct involvement in providing low cost/social housing they only want provide subsidies in the form of first time buyer grants and HAP. There is a possibility I'm being cynical but I don't see the a referendum benefitting the working class or spurring the government on to do more about the accommodation crisis. At best it might reduce all the red tape involved in delivering housing projects and allow the government to eliminate evictions, at worst it might create another sinkhole for public funds and create more uncertainty for small landlords.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068481#Comment_120068481

Or at some future date it may allow the government confiscate your property for the common good, I don’t know, but insofar as Im concerned there’s no debate on this, constitution has been fine since the foundation of the state, and no matter what they come back with even if it seems reasonable, Im voting no, laws of unintended consequences and all that, so where down the line the government will be taking something off someone based on these changes.

Dont trust them so I’ll be voting no.

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064981#Comment_120064981

To late for that im afraid. We share an open air bridge with Ukriane via Ryanair.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068696#Comment_120068696

That's the other aspect to this, it's fine if people want to offer accommodation to help, but if anyone arriving in the country has a constitutional right to accommodation where does that leave us.

The comparison to Brexit is a good one, weak politicians trying to gain support by signaling to a group of voters and opening up a whole pandora's box. I don't even think it's unintended consequences, it's more a case of not giving a f**k about the repercussions once they get to stay in power.

growleaves

'However, I wouldn't pay too much attention to anything the self-styled "Irish Council for Human Rights" says. It's a small, right-wing and anti-vax pressure group with an impressive but misleading name, founded by a single barrister. You can even see this confirmed in their (admittedly extensive) article on the history of this that you link to.'

You may be right but there has been a consolidation of power with media, institutions and government presenting as a unified political bloc on several issues, going at least as far as back as the referendum on the Nice Treaty.

So it can happen that opinionated individuals offer the only real opposition in a world where people look to 'official' institutions to decide everything. A democracy is meant to have adversarial politics but in practice one 'side' is always out-matched, overwhelmed and delegitimised by a put-together 'consensus'.

I would think long and hard before trusting this state with greater powers of expropriation of private property. I think we could end up with nationalisation of apartments and an expansion of social housing. This particular government has subordinated housing as a secondary issue to construction lockdowns and huge inward migrations, so despite what they say housing is not a priority for them its an afterthought.

And before anyone says it, yes I do realise that the Gov can already expropriate under some circumstances.

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068741#Comment_120068741

Once a house for all is in the constitution it will be a right of anyone residing here from any EU country. The EU commission, as it has done with Ukriane, can simple give temporary rights to any country. That can be extended to infinity. Irish politicians then pass the buck to the EU.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068791#Comment_120068791

Politicians in this country also seem to have a very amenable relationship with the EU as a potential future employer, we definitely need to be aware of the risk of politicians feathering their own future nest by implementing what goes down well in Brussels.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068748#Comment_120068748

This post is heavily laced with conspiratorial thinking. It's hard to know where to start with it, so I won't.