New Licensing Legislation

Hodors Appletart

The government is looking to bring forward new licensing legislation in an effort to

"modernise the country’s antiquated licensing laws"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pubs-will-be-able-to-serve-until-1230am-every-night-under-new-rules-42092442.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=seeding

Pubs will be able to serve until 12.30am every night of the week under a major reform of licensing laws.

The new legislation will also clear the way for nightclubs to stay open until 6am, but last orders will be required to be taken at 5am.

BeerNut

No mention of removing the extinguishment requirement. That's the only bit of the original proposal that would make a real difference.

Hodors Appletart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789989#Comment_119789989

yeah I agree with that alright.

I'd love to see a few changes to loosen the restrictions on. Brewery Taps too - which is probably the same thing.

Baby steps though - people like McEntee and Varadkar will have grown up complaining about the archaic laws (and I know Leo has a taste for Craft I saw him quaffing pints of IPA in a well known Clanbrassil Street craftery just before the pandemic)

JayRoc

Tbh I'm more interested in what revisions are being proposed for off-sales hours.

Hodors Appletart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790080#Comment_119790080

doubt there's any

BeerNut

Never saw off sales mentioned in any of the consultation documents. I think they're staying where they are.

Gimme a shot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790080#Comment_119790080

Can’t be upsetting the vintners now.

Gimme a shot.

Why not allow 24/7 opening?

JayRoc

That's baffling to me. Maybe it's my demographic, but I don't hear many people up in arms about nightclub hours. I hear lots of people giving out about not being able to put in a bottle of wine with the shopping til almost lunchtime on a Sunday.

Not to say that clubs and pubs shouldn't have their hours looked at, but when someone mentions how they want to "modernise the country’s antiquated licensing laws", off-sales is the first thing I think of.

Hodors Appletart

the vintners cartel won't have it

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789989#Comment_119789989

As a matter of interest what real difference would that make?

BeerNut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790785#Comment_119790785

You'll get pubs where they need to be, not where they were put in 1902. You'll get a more diverse offer: smaller pubs will be more economically viable and licensees won't need to be as beholden to industrial brewers, something which results in the poor selection of beer sold in most pubs. Pubs won't be incentivised to shut down because their license is more valuable to Tesco than to the pub.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790435#Comment_119790435

I went back to have a look at what they actually asked in the consultation and off-trade hours weren't in it. I guess they decided early on to leave it out, possibly because it was last changed so recently.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790785#Comment_119790785

It provides a perverse incentive for rural pubs to shut up shop - why try to fight to stay open when you can get a chunky five figure sum to shut down.

Every new supermarket offlicence has required the closure of a pub, generally rural (there are exceptions - my local petrol station got its licence from Berminghams on Dorset Street), to let it open. Ditto every new pub, hotel with public bar, restaurant with full bar licence etc - but there's more supermarkets than there are those!

BeerNut

I see the extinguishment requirement is on the chopping block after all. It'll be interesting to see what immediate effect this has on the cost of a licence. If you knew you had to make your money back in four or five years, after which your investment is worthless, you're not going to pay full whack, are you?

Hodors Appletart

that's a great development

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790845#Comment_119790845

I would definitely see new shops being built with empty offo space pending the change, probably not immediately but once it gets to the stage that you wouldn't repay the investment in the interim.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790813#Comment_119790813

I don't smaller pubs have a future. The fixed costs rates / insurance/ electric / legal / minimum wage / accountant / broadband / card machine etc. means that the traditional "public house" as in a people living upstairs and a small few rooms downstairs are being killed off.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790819#Comment_119790819

I know a few rural pubs that are long closed but licence is still there. some are ready to open but to open others again would take a lot in terms of fire requirements, general renovations etc., if these licences were to become worthless I would imagine a lot of licence holders would just let them lapse.

Below is an example of a pub that was recently resurrected, I doubt the licence would have been maintained all those years if it had no value.

https://www.clareecho.ie/the-burren-inn-has-brought-tubber-community-back-together/

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790845#Comment_119790845

Where did you see about changes to extinguishment? Cant find anything about it, although I did find this cracker: (https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2022/1024/1331181-cabinet-politics/)

Two heavyweight towns for their nightlife offerings? 🤣

loyatemu

simple change I'd like to see is cafés being able to sell beer, like in every other European country (bizarrely many of them sell wine but not beer). Disclaimer - I am not Michael McDowell.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791560#Comment_119791560

This is in the Irish Times, but the words to watch are "speaking previously" It may have been in the plan before but dropped.

Speaking previously about the plans, Ms McEntee said: “It’s really about how do we consolidate what is a lot of complex laws and outdated laws, but also to make it easier for people to get into the industry, to make it easier for newcomers, young people, and to just create a better environment for our artists and our venues as well,” she said.

BeerNut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791560#Comment_119791560

Sections 20-23 of the General Scheme of the Sale of Alcohol Bill 2022 set out the new proposed procedures for applying for a licence.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791644#Comment_119791644

Thanks.

Press release on gov.ie here outlines it and some other interesting points:

Off licence opening hours will be standardised across the week – and off licences will have the option of opening from 10.30am to 10pm seven days a week. This is a change from the current position where these hours apply six hoursdays a week, with Sunday sales only permitted from 12.30pm on Sunday.

The General Scheme also proposes an amendment to the so-called ‘extinguishment’ provision, whereby anyone seeking to open a new premises or an off licence must first purchase a licence from an existing licence holder in order to do so.

This can be an impediment to opening a new pub in towns and villages where some premises have shut, particularly in rural areas.

Often, these licences are sold in a closed transactions to a large supermarket chain to be used for the purposes of an in store off licence in an urban area. And the cost of a licence can be prohibitive for someone seeking to open a new pub in a rural town which may need it.

After a transition period of three years following the enactment of the Bill, Minister McEntee proposes to remove the extinguishment requirement to obtain a seven day on licence.

The ‘extinguishment’ requirement will remain in place for off licences however, and will only be applicable to licences already in existence on the enactment of this Bill. No new licences granted under this Bill could be sold for extinguishment purposes.

Other stuff:

To support the development of the night time economy and ensure our licensing system meets the needs of modern society and economy, Minister McEntee, among other reforms, is proposing:

the creation of new annual permits for late bars and nightclubs, to replace the current system where a Special Exemption Order is required every time such a venue wants to open after normal hours

...

McEntee: “I want to ensure that smaller cultural institutions and galleries can help breath life back into our towns and that is why my proposals allow smaller venues apply for what will be called a cultural amenity licence.

“This will be strictly for venues where the sale of alcohol is not the main activity on the premises.

“It is only for the convenience of people who attending a venue for another reason, such as an exhibition.

“And it will only be for a set period of time around that event - from an hour before the performance to an hour after the performance.”

BeerNut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791403#Comment_119791403

In the instance where a licensed premises is not fit to be a pub, then yes, the licence may well lapse and disappear. But the difference the new law will make is that if someone then says "Hey, we should have a pub in this town" then they can set about applying for a licence for a more suitable premises and make it a pub. That's not currently possible.

mikeecho

I'm completely against this.

It's way more craic when it's a lock in.

Having a lock in at 7am .. just doesn't do it for me

Ciarrai76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790080#Comment_119790080

All I read was that Sunday opening will change to 10.30am instead of 12.30pm.

fritzelly

So we go from we must set minimum pricing on alcohol in off licences/supermarkets because we're a nation of drunks who don't know when enough is enough to it's ok to legislate to allow bars to open earlier and close later so those who don't know when enough is enough can keep on drinking (to the LVA's delight)

What am I missing?

adaminho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797831#Comment_119797831

You can buy a bottle of vodka and drink it at home and no one will stop you. Try that in a bar and we could lose our license and be fined €3,000 for the pub and another €3,000 for me for serving you!

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119798379#Comment_119798379

Has that ever actually happened?

the beer revolu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119798379#Comment_119798379

I'm sorry, but this really only happens if someone dies or kills someone!

This notion that pubs and clubs, generally, don't serve drunk people is not evidenced in real life.

Now, you may well be a responsible server and work in a responsible bar but a quick walk around any town or city on a weekend night would show a different picture of people routinely falling out of bars and clubs extremely intoxicated. It's pretty normal.

Quackster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792619#Comment_119792619

Existing pub licences will still be needed for new off-licences so they should maintain much/most of their value.

I think I read that one of the stipulations of the new pub licences is that the premises can't have been licenced within the past few years so someone can't just sell off their existing pub licence for a new off-licence and then immediately apply for a new pub licence.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119798668#Comment_119798668

People drinking rapidly at the end of the night / getting extra drinks in at last orders is a big part of the problem there, caused by the current ridiculous closing times. Somebody could be fine when ordering the drinks but not after lashing a few back in less than half an hour on top of the rest of the evening's drinking.

So we'll be still stuck with our nanny state / support your local publican 10pm off licence hours then?

The extinguishing a licence requirement is really only a state-backed pension plan for rural pub owners. It's as much or more of a racket than the taxi plate thing used to be. An artificial scarcity created by the government on behalf of a vested interest in order to screw the public.