Legal question about cycle lanes

Toblerone1978

Any of you who cycle regularly in Kilkenny would know that Kilkenny bicycle lanes are terrible. They're designed to be at least convenience to motorist as possible, with very little regard for the cyclist themselves - and they certainly do not promote cycling.

Okay, little rant over. I was cycling to work this morning where this elderly lady beeped me out of it. I caught up with her at the roundabout. She explained that I should have been on the cycle lane and I told her in fact, she was wrong and I was entitled to the road. She tipped me on the bike a couple of times with her car so I took note of her registration and I will report her to the car.

Before doing this, I said I better do a bit of fact checking and it appears she was right. Article 14(3) of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 1997 (see here) states that "All pedal cycles must be driven on a cycle track where one is provided.".

Personally I'm not going to adhere to it for my own safety when the cycle lanes are shocking (as 90%+ of them in Kilkenny are) but strictly speaking, am I reading this right i.e. legally I'm obliged to use the cycle lanes when provided, or am I allowed to use the road when they are much safer and effective?

magicbastarder

the amendment to the road traffic act, from 2012, signed by then minister for transport leo varadkar, stated that the only cycling infrastructure it is mandatory for cyclists to use are contra-flow cycle lanes on one way streets, or cycle lanes provided through pedestrianised areas.

road traffic law in ireland is law layered upon law layered upon law and probably needs a legal qualification to untangle.

Cabaal

Oh I'll second that, cycle lanes in Kilkenny are awful. The ONLY exception are some of the sections of the new road connecting to the new roundabout on the Callan Road.

As for the question, you are not legally required to use a cycle lane just because one exists. This was changed in 2018.

https://irishcycle.com/2018/08/18/cyclists-dont-have-to-use-cycle-lanes-new-legislation-confirms/

The new legislation, named the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 2018, can be downloaded from irishstatutebook.ie (PDF).

May I suggest getting a camera for future trips, "tipping" you with a car is driving into you and she should be off the road (Gardai won't do this, but you'll have better chance of getting something done with video evidence then none)

magicbastarder

worth mentioning; there was a bit of debate a few years ago about whether the explanatory note at the end (which is where the statement is made) has any legal weight, but the DoT had confirmed that the intention was to remove the ambiguity.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

Toblerone1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754700#Comment_119754700

Thanks everyone, a trip to the garda station it is.

If I can get a few penalty points on her DL, perhaps it will teach her and those in her circle to be (a) more respectful of cycles and (b) remove her aggressiveness.

magicbastarder

aha, Cabaal's info was up to date, i'd forgotten they'd already addressed it.

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754793#Comment_119754793

2 chances - zero & none.

Gardai won't give a damn

I you actually get a garda that does care then at worst he/she will visit the driver and give them a warning and there's no chance of going to court

The best solution when you get a driver like that is to move their side mirror so that they have to get out and re-adjust it.

magicbastarder

if she deliberately drove into the OP, that's definitely worth a trip to the garda station. as you say, it's then a lottery as to whether the garda will do anything about it.

CramCycle

It's assault with a weapon, don't play it off like a driving misdemeanor when talking to the Gardai

magicbastarder

exactly. if the garda is giving you the runaround; ask them what their reaction would be if they were out walking and got into an argument with another pedestrian - and the other pedestrian started tapping them gently with a hammer as a way of making their point.

magicbastarder

or; if he was driving and again got into another argument, with a motorist - and that motorist started driving into his car with theirs. deliberately hitting someone with your car should be a driving ban (in an ideal world)

Large bottle small glass

As an aside up until 2020 an innocent party injured by the deliberate act of using car as a weapon was not covered under the insurance policy for car.

I'm not sure how often the insurance company argued that point and not paid but it was certainly an issue.

MIBI argued it and lost here.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/in-depth/vehicle-as-weapon

magicbastarder

i can see the logic to an extent; why should insurance pay out on what is a wilful act? in a sense, they'd be indemnifying the commissioning of a criminal act.

JMcL

Deffo merits a trip to the guards. As to how to get anything done about it, can you insist that they make a record of the complaint? If it exists on Pulse, I imagine it'd be a lot harder to give the runaround than if it's a "Leave it with us" situation. While it'd be nice to think that actions like these would have consequences like being remover from behind a wheel, realistically in this car obsessed state it's probably not going to happen. However, in this case a squad car turning up to her door to have a word might have a reasonable enough effect, depending on what kind of elderly lady she is (e.g. Keeping Up Appearances vs. aunt from hell in Derry Girls)

Toblerone1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754876#Comment_119754876

You needn't worry about that!

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754829#Comment_119754829

It's not even a lottery anymore particularly with your word and no witness' . By all means report it as it may well not be the first time she's been reported. As for points etc no a snowballs chance I'm afraid.

On a side note my wife got berated by a cyclist this morning for blocking a cycle lane on a road that is notoriously bumper to bumper with traffic. She didn't intentionally block it but went to pull out and wasn't allowed in then the car behind stopped her from reversing back. Now this hero of a cyclist not only decided to berate her from the passenger window he then doubled down and walked around to drivers side to berate her. In my eyes this kinda of thing just turns what is a typical motorist into someone that now hates cyclists till they forget about it and of course I caught the wrath. One of your lot was a bollox to me this morning. I said did you not tell him your husband is a cyclist also he'd have loved that 😂😂 Honestly wish I was there myself.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754700#Comment_119754700

Am a bit confused by the wording.....you are not legally required.....this was changed.....

Are we saying:

(A) We are legally required to use them

or

(B) We are not legally required to use them.

Tombo2001

Incidentally

Was discussing with the kids y'day why its better to cycle on Griffith Ave than Grace Park Road/ Richmond Rd...

Why ?

Because there is a cycle path there....

After two minutes of thinking about it, the little one says "but isnt a cycle path a scary person who is pretending to be someone else"...

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754793#Comment_119754793

Lol. You're delusional.

Gardai, aren't going to give a fúck and won't entertain your complalint.

If you were to complain you'd have to be willing to give up a day to go to court to give evidence.

When these kind of petty road traffic squabbles are reported to the Gardai that is regularly the first question they ask you - "are you willing to go to court and give evidence before a judge?" They know 95% of people won't be willing, and often they will even interrupt you mid-story to ask you this. They know the craic and have heard it all before.

Even if you do say you're willing to go to court over it, unless you have other witnessess who are willing to go to court and give evidence, they will say it is your word against hers and the judge will dismiss the case instantly, so it would literally be just a waste of everyone's time. The Gardai aren't going to want to make themselves look stupid in front of a judge for bringing a case before the court with no reasonable evidence beyond "he said she said" and not a hope in hell of a conviction. You have to have a reasonable prospect of success if you are to bring a case to court.

Dealing with ignorant behaviour on the road is just part of life. It is not worth pursing people down the road for and getting into handbags over. There are more important things in life. Pick you battles.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755730#Comment_119755730

The fact that you describe a motorist hitting a cyclist on purpose with a car as a "petty road traffic squabble" is pretty shocking.

CreadanLady

What she should have said there was...

"OH MY GOD! HELP ME! I'M A WOMAN ON MY OWN AND THIS MAN IS THREATENING MEEEE!"

If you don't get it you havent seen the famous video.

fat bloke

You'd never know. The Kilkenny Gardaí are absolute legends every September when it comes to volunteering to help out Rás na mBan, so they might be more pro-cycling than you think?

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755744#Comment_119755744

Well whatever level of contact was made, the fact remains that there is a) not a shred tangible evidence of such collisions, either injury or damaged property, and b) there are no third-party witnesses, so any complaint to the Gardai is highly unlikely to result in an investigation, let alone a prosecution.

It is a he said she said incident. Gardai will do nothing here because there is nothing they can do.

Cabaal

100% this should be reported, but I suspect the Gardai will treat it as his word against hers and she may claim she felt threatened or something. If she deny's they'll do nothing. Video at least helps remove the deny option.

CreadanLady

All joking aside, to be fair in both the case of the OP and the fella who shouted at @iwillhtfu's wife, they probably did come across as intimidating and put the woman in fear.

Regardless of woke culture and the like, the fact is that when you are a man and you approach a lone woman in an angry irate state, you are going to be intimidating to her, regardless of what she may or may not have done to trigger you beforehand. As a man you are not going to come out of that situation looking good nomatter what happens.

Best of just take a deep breath and carry on with your day. Trying to single handedly enforce manners on other road users is an absolute waste of time.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755357#Comment_119755357

Cyclists must stay in contra flow cycle lanes (where they exist).

Cyclists must stay in a cycle lane through a pedestrianised area (where it exists).

For the 99.9% of other cycle lanes out there, cyclsits don't need to use them largely becauser they are shite and were not designed for the benefit of cyclists but are actually a misguided attempt to keep roads clear for drivers!

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756949#Comment_119756949

It takes a hell of a lot to intimidate my wife. 😉 She just thought he was an arsehole for the sake of being an arsehole. 🤷‍♂️ In my eyes the lads you see confronting all motorists over the slightest issue are more annoying than some motorists and their stupid actions. That's not aimed at you OP but reading between the lines in your scenario and result it's usually a cyclist trying to prove a point and puts themselves in front of a motorist they just wound up.

Either way as I mentioned report the driver by all means but the dream of points etc wont be forthcoming. I doubt they'll even issue a pulse number for it as it's a he said she said thing.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756288#Comment_119756288

You just completely made up those facts.

Telling someone not to report something this serious based on something you made up based on nothing is just wrong.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267826/legal-question-about-cycle-lanes

More to this than meets the eye I suspect. Why did this elderly lady beep you out of it? Were you positioning yourself on the road to deliberately obstruct her when you didn't need to? Why did she 'tip' you?

I'm a motorist and also cycle. Sometimes one can't help but impede motorists but more usually one can keep in and let them on. Some cyclists though can be dickheads and want to make a point. Not saying this was you but normally something would spark another road user to get pissed off.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757685#Comment_119757685

Which law covers "keeping in and letting drivers on"?

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757685#Comment_119757685

Not using a poorly designed cycle track is often more than enough to generate a reaction from a passing motorist as the op described. You obviously don't spend that much time on bike if that is your impression.

Seth Brundle

More to this than meets the eye I suspect.

I really don't know why!

Why did this elderly lady beep you out of it?

Many drivers will suddenly become irate when there is a cyclist in front of them. They often will make stupid, pointless overtaking manoeuvres simply to get in front of the cyclist even though they may be coming to a queue of stopped traffic.

Were you positioning yourself on the road to deliberately obstruct her when you didn't need to?

Assuming @Toblerone1978 was moving along the road then they were travelling legally and we're not obstructing anyone.

Why did she 'tip' you?

Entitled driver who doesn't care about the safety of a vulnerable road user?

Or else she was just a dangerous person.

I'm a motorist and also cycle.

Most cyclists are also drivers. We are actually regular people who happen to occasionally use two wheels rather than four.

Sometimes one can't help but impede motorists but more usually one can keep in and let them on.

Are you saying that when I have right of way, I should pull over because someone wants to go faster than me? Why shoukdnt the driver behind not wait for a safe overtaking opportunity rather than me having to pull over to create one? What makes their journey more important than mine?

Furthermore, I've often had drivers impede me but not stop to let me by. Should it not be reciprocated?

Some cyclists though can be dickheads and want to make a point. Not saying this was you but normally something would spark another road user to get pissed off.

I've encountered pedestrians who were dickheads. I've encountered cyclists who were dickheads. I've encountered drivers who were dickheads. Unfortunately, the dickhead drivers usually are the only ones who needlessly put me in danger. What is your point anyhow?

positron

I've had car drivers shouting at me for exact same reason (I was cycling along on the road outside Southgate shopping centre double-roundabout south of Drogheda, heading south).

I've had cyclists shouting at me because my motorbike partially entered the bike lane, somewhere along Dorset Street in Dublin.

I've had car drivers honking/shouting/beeping while riding both bike and the motorbike. And car, to be fair.

I've had 7 foot tall hulk of a Eastern European sounding dude try and threaten and rob my work laptop off me - wait for this - at 7:30 am on a weekday on a commuter train to Dublin. First he tried to racially abuse me, shouting racist stuff looking for a reaction - he got none. And then he and his tattoo'd up sidekick buddy demanded I give them my laptop - I just folded it and put in back in the bag and said no, not today, not a chance. They just got up and f*cked off.

A lot people are just c*nts. It's hard to ignore them - but ignore them one must. And get a camera. If nothing, it might go viral on youtube!

Traumadoc

I had an interesting email discussion with someone high-up in Waterford county council , I was complaining about the design of a new cycle lane and how dangerous it was, and that cyclists would not use it.

Their response was that cyclists were obliged to use cycle lanes if provided. That was last month!

magicbastarder

I got beeped at a few months ago for (I think) not using a cycle lane on a brand new road, one which would have dumped me back onto the road on the inside of left turning traffic. I was going right.

cletus

I regularly get beeped at for being on the road approaching a roundabout near work. There is a cycle lane before the roundabout (quite a nice one, actually), and if you want to take the first exit (left turn) it continues without a break.

However, if you want to take the second exit (straight ahead), once it reaches the roundabout, it terminates at a set of traffic lights, with a traffic island thing half way across (4 lanes), and no continuation of the cycle lane at the far side.

Normally, I'll use some of the cycle lane, but merge with the traffic lane before the roundabout, so I can travel around and continue on the road. THis seems to annoy many drivers

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759268#Comment_119759268

https://goo.gl/maps/jRYN1EPTtWGroNcs8

That beauty?

For east bound cyclist they have to cross a double junction on the left, the second of which is where access is provided to meat factory/shop. I don't have figures but I'd expect a lot of movements at that junction; every McDonalds beef burger for Irish/UK and half of France comes out of that factory among a lot of other products. Probably busiest butcher in county as well

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759268#Comment_119759268

There does appear to be a lot of people who are unaware of thè rule and will happily proceed to instruct cyclists travelling legally on what to do. Frequently, I have a motorcyclist pass me on the N4 around Lucan. He is travelling along the bus lane and will always point at the adjacent cycle path/footpath telling me that I should be there. This is despite the blue signs indicating my entitlement. That he is the one actually travelling illegally does not appear to register with him...

This morning the N4 was backed up and the private cars were moving much slower than I was. The usual habit is for some drivers is to nip into the bus lane and drive quickly to the next junction. Of course, with me there "holding them up" the natural thing the eejit in the black Audi could do was blast his horn at me several times when I didn't get out of his way, even though I was travelling legally and he wasn't.

I've had multiple road users including bus drivers, taxi drivers and private vehicle drivers beep me for using bus lanes even though I wasn't delaying them or anything. They see a "perfectly good cycle lane" and assume that I'm a prick because I am not in it. That I could be doing 30 or 40km//h on a narrow bumpy surface with joggers, pedestrians, dogs, glass, etc doesn't register. That I've to cede priority at junctions doesn't register with them. They have no experience of riding a bike and make the incorrect assumption that I am being an obnoxious dick.

However, outside of a discussion with other cyclists, have you ever heard an RSA advert or read anything that told you that cyclists don't need to use cycle lanes where provided? How are the general public supposed to know when nobody in authority will tell them?

hesker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759322#Comment_119759322

I have that also on a regular route I use with wands added as an extra barrier. It can be tricky merging out of the cycle lane in between the wands with cars not expecting you

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759686#Comment_119759686

There are no wands here, but as you approach the roundabout, there are railings, so you need to merge nice and early to avoid conflict

As I said, the bike lane continues on the left (and the right too), but if you stick to the bike lane to take the 12 o'clock exit, it dumps you back out into traffic just where cars would exit the roundabout

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757782#Comment_119757782

The law of common sense and courtesy. Best to treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself and don't be a dickhead trying to prove a point.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760072#Comment_119760072

So no legal requirement, then.

I normally treat people as I'd like to be treated by them.

That doesn't include 'tipping' vulnerable road users with my car

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760072#Comment_119760072

Do you keep in and let faster cyclists cycle on in busy urban traffic?

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760235#Comment_119760235

Regardless of how you word it, though, the outcome will likely be the same. No video evidence, no witnesses, I presume no damage (and even if threre was, you'd probably need photos in situ). So its back to 'he said, she said'

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760494#Comment_119760494

Every Court case is “he said, she said “.

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760235#Comment_119760235

It should be, but without witnesses/evidence it won't be.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760525#Comment_119760525

To a degree. But what do you, genuinely, see a judge doing in this case?

That's not even mentioning that in order to bring a case, the prosecutor would have to demonstrate that they have enough evidence to support that case in the first place. I can't see this meeting any sort of threshold. A civil case might be different, there's a lower bar there, but the talk so far is that it's a criminal action

I don't get on with one of the neighbours in my estate. I could go into the local Garda station this evening and say that he left hooked me, and he deliberately hit my bike with his car. Should the garda take my word, because I'm on a bike?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760127#Comment_119760127

Don't know what you're referring to? If I was driving and stuck in traffic and could reposition car to let cyclists pass, of course I would. If I was cycling and safe to do so, I'd keep in to let faster cyclists by. If not safe, I'd make them wait. There seems to be a bit of hierarchy in cyclists, some think they have a right to move as quickly as possible.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760736#Comment_119760736

So you don’t proactively keep in for cyclists? There seems to be a bit of a hierarchy in motorists, some think that they have a right to move as quickly as possible.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759413#Comment_119759413

Also consider the actual event here - they are whizzing by you, shouting 'instruction' aka venting at you - and whizzing on past before you can reply. No chance for you to respond, no way for them to face any consequence for their behaviour.