If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

Legal question about cycle lanes

  • 17-10-2022 9:00am
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭

    Any of you who cycle regularly in Kilkenny would know that Kilkenny bicycle lanes are terrible. They're designed to be at least convenience to motorist as possible, with very little regard for the cyclist themselves - and they certainly do not promote cycling.

    Okay, little rant over. I was cycling to work this morning where this elderly lady beeped me out of it. I caught up with her at the roundabout. She explained that I should have been on the cycle lane and I told her in fact, she was wrong and I was entitled to the road. She tipped me on the bike a couple of times with her car so I took note of her registration and I will report her to the car.

    Before doing this, I said I better do a bit of fact checking and it appears she was right. Article 14(3) of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 1997 (see here) states that "All pedal cycles must be driven on a cycle track where one is provided.".

    Personally I'm not going to adhere to it for my own safety when the cycle lanes are shocking (as 90%+ of them in Kilkenny are) but strictly speaking, am I reading this right i.e. legally I'm obliged to use the cycle lanes when provided, or am I allowed to use the road when they are much safer and effective?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    the amendment to the road traffic act, from 2012, signed by then minister for transport leo varadkar, stated that the only cycling infrastructure it is mandatory for cyclists to use are contra-flow cycle lanes on one way streets, or cycle lanes provided through pedestrianised areas.

    road traffic law in ireland is law layered upon law layered upon law and probably needs a legal qualification to untangle.

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal

    Oh I'll second that, cycle lanes in Kilkenny are awful. The ONLY exception are some of the sections of the new road connecting to the new roundabout on the Callan Road.

    As for the question, you are not legally required to use a cycle lane just because one exists. This was changed in 2018.

    The new legislation, named the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 2018, can be downloaded from (PDF).

    May I suggest getting a camera for future trips, "tipping" you with a car is driving into you and she should be off the road (Gardai won't do this, but you'll have better chance of getting something done with video evidence then none)

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    worth mentioning; there was a bit of debate a few years ago about whether the explanatory note at the end (which is where the statement is made) has any legal weight, but the DoT had confirmed that the intention was to remove the ambiguity.

  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Toblerone1978

    Thanks everyone, a trip to the garda station it is.

    If I can get a few penalty points on her DL, perhaps it will teach her and those in her circle to be (a) more respectful of cycles and (b) remove her aggressiveness.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    aha, Cabaal's info was up to date, i'd forgotten they'd already addressed it.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭walterking

    2 chances - zero & none.

    Gardai won't give a damn

    I you actually get a garda that does care then at worst he/she will visit the driver and give them a warning and there's no chance of going to court

    The best solution when you get a driver like that is to move their side mirror so that they have to get out and re-adjust it.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    if she deliberately drove into the OP, that's definitely worth a trip to the garda station. as you say, it's then a lottery as to whether the garda will do anything about it.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle

    It's assault with a weapon, don't play it off like a driving misdemeanor when talking to the Gardai

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    exactly. if the garda is giving you the runaround; ask them what their reaction would be if they were out walking and got into an argument with another pedestrian - and the other pedestrian started tapping them gently with a hammer as a way of making their point.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    or; if he was driving and again got into another argument, with a motorist - and that motorist started driving into his car with theirs. deliberately hitting someone with your car should be a driving ban (in an ideal world)

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass

    As an aside up until 2020 an innocent party injured by the deliberate act of using car as a weapon was not covered under the insurance policy for car.

    I'm not sure how often the insurance company argued that point and not paid but it was certainly an issue.

    MIBI argued it and lost here.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 46,907 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    i can see the logic to an extent; why should insurance pay out on what is a wilful act? in a sense, they'd be indemnifying the commissioning of a criminal act.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭JMcL

    Deffo merits a trip to the guards. As to how to get anything done about it, can you insist that they make a record of the complaint? If it exists on Pulse, I imagine it'd be a lot harder to give the runaround than if it's a "Leave it with us" situation. While it'd be nice to think that actions like these would have consequences like being remover from behind a wheel, realistically in this car obsessed state it's probably not going to happen. However, in this case a squad car turning up to her door to have a word might have a reasonable enough effect, depending on what kind of elderly lady she is (e.g. Keeping Up Appearances vs. aunt from hell in Derry Girls)

  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Toblerone1978

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,347 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu

    It's not even a lottery anymore particularly with your word and no witness' . By all means report it as it may well not be the first time she's been reported. As for points etc no a snowballs chance I'm afraid.

    On a side note my wife got berated by a cyclist this morning for blocking a cycle lane on a road that is notoriously bumper to bumper with traffic. She didn't intentionally block it but went to pull out and wasn't allowed in then the car behind stopped her from reversing back. Now this hero of a cyclist not only decided to berate her from the passenger window he then doubled down and walked around to drivers side to berate her. In my eyes this kinda of thing just turns what is a typical motorist into someone that now hates cyclists till they forget about it and of course I caught the wrath. One of your lot was a bollox to me this morning. I said did you not tell him your husband is a cyclist also he'd have loved that 😂😂 Honestly wish I was there myself.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Tombo2001

    Am a bit confused by the are not legally required.....this was changed.....

    Are we saying:

    (A) We are legally required to use them


    (B) We are not legally required to use them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady

    Lol. You're delusional.

    Gardai, aren't going to give a fúck and won't entertain your complalint.

    If you were to complain you'd have to be willing to give up a day to go to court to give evidence.

    When these kind of petty road traffic squabbles are reported to the Gardai that is regularly the first question they ask you - "are you willing to go to court and give evidence before a judge?" They know 95% of people won't be willing, and often they will even interrupt you mid-story to ask you this. They know the craic and have heard it all before.

    Even if you do say you're willing to go to court over it, unless you have other witnessess who are willing to go to court and give evidence, they will say it is your word against hers and the judge will dismiss the case instantly, so it would literally be just a waste of everyone's time. The Gardai aren't going to want to make themselves look stupid in front of a judge for bringing a case before the court with no reasonable evidence beyond "he said she said" and not a hope in hell of a conviction. You have to have a reasonable prospect of success if you are to bring a case to court.

    Dealing with ignorant behaviour on the road is just part of life. It is not worth pursing people down the road for and getting into handbags over. There are more important things in life. Pick you battles.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.

  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady

    What she should have said there was...


    If you don't get it you havent seen the famous video.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,701 ✭✭✭fat bloke

    You'd never know. The Kilkenny Gardaí are absolute legends every September when it comes to volunteering to help out Rás na mBan, so they might be more pro-cycling than you think?

  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady

    Well whatever level of contact was made, the fact remains that there is a) not a shred tangible evidence of such collisions, either injury or damaged property, and b) there are no third-party witnesses, so any complaint to the Gardai is highly unlikely to result in an investigation, let alone a prosecution.

    It is a he said she said incident. Gardai will do nothing here because there is nothing they can do.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal

    100% this should be reported, but I suspect the Gardai will treat it as his word against hers and she may claim she felt threatened or something. If she deny's they'll do nothing. Video at least helps remove the deny option.

  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady

    All joking aside, to be fair in both the case of the OP and the fella who shouted at @iwillhtfu's wife, they probably did come across as intimidating and put the woman in fear.

    Regardless of woke culture and the like, the fact is that when you are a man and you approach a lone woman in an angry irate state, you are going to be intimidating to her, regardless of what she may or may not have done to trigger you beforehand. As a man you are not going to come out of that situation looking good nomatter what happens.

    Best of just take a deep breath and carry on with your day. Trying to single handedly enforce manners on other road users is an absolute waste of time.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 36,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle

    Cyclists must stay in contra flow cycle lanes (where they exist).

    Cyclists must stay in a cycle lane through a pedestrianised area (where it exists).

    For the 99.9% of other cycle lanes out there, cyclsits don't need to use them largely becauser they are shite and were not designed for the benefit of cyclists but are actually a misguided attempt to keep roads clear for drivers!

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,347 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu

    It takes a hell of a lot to intimidate my wife. 😉 She just thought he was an arsehole for the sake of being an arsehole. 🤷‍♂️ In my eyes the lads you see confronting all motorists over the slightest issue are more annoying than some motorists and their stupid actions. That's not aimed at you OP but reading between the lines in your scenario and result it's usually a cyclist trying to prove a point and puts themselves in front of a motorist they just wound up.

    Either way as I mentioned report the driver by all means but the dream of points etc wont be forthcoming. I doubt they'll even issue a pulse number for it as it's a he said she said thing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭irelandrover

    You just completely made up those facts.

    Telling someone not to report something this serious based on something you made up based on nothing is just wrong.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,665 ✭✭✭Furze99

    More to this than meets the eye I suspect. Why did this elderly lady beep you out of it? Were you positioning yourself on the road to deliberately obstruct her when you didn't need to? Why did she 'tip' you?

    I'm a motorist and also cycle. Sometimes one can't help but impede motorists but more usually one can keep in and let them on. Some cyclists though can be dickheads and want to make a point. Not saying this was you but normally something would spark another road user to get pissed off.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭cletus

    Which law covers "keeping in and letting drivers on"?

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Alias G

    Not using a poorly designed cycle track is often more than enough to generate a reaction from a passing motorist as the op described. You obviously don't spend that much time on bike if that is your impression.