New Weekly Basic Income for Artists

donaghs

I saw this in the news recently. Artists to receive weekly payments.

Its only a "pilot", but that means its possibly it could be widened out.

Artists to receive weekly payments of €325 through new Basic Income pilot scheme - Independent.ie

Basic Income for the Arts (BIA) (citizensinformation.ie)

Firstly it doesn't seem like a huge amount of money, and on the surface of it, isn't it great when people get more money, and isn't "art" great too?

But this raises a number of questions in my mind.

First, who decides what "art" is, and what "artists" are eligible? Its all subjective really? Except in this case tax payers money is being funnelled to those who qualify.

No matter what the criteria are, most people are unlikely to agree with it.

If this scheme is expanded out to thousands of artists (and more), it will start to become a much bigger expense. At the same time, we have a cost of living crisis. And we are being told tax rises are inevitable. lots of kite flying for raising taxes ,e.g. inheritance tax.

‘Unavoidable’ tax increases on the cards in Budget 2023, claims Social Justice Ireland – The Irish Times

What great art, that we appreciate today was created by state subsidies? I'm not talking about private patrons, but taxation being redirected directly to the artists as payment.

I understand that Art has additional qualities that other products don't. One example is a film that made in Ireland can continue to being inspiration to people, and interest (and income) to the location where it was made. But nonetheless, artists who cannot survive on the income from their arts, are effectivly making a product that people dont want. They are free to do that, good luck to them - but should taxpayers have to subsidise this?

Overheal

All I have to say to that is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoeHqyccx0

Silentcorner

State Sponsored Art...it'll be even more drab than RTE!

I already know what the cultural output will be, we all do!

Kevhog1988

Become an artist... Draw the dole!

I Blame Sheeple

If the 'modern art' section in our museums is anything to go by, toddlers will be able to pay for their own childcare soon.

As people will buy non-existent statues and call it art, I'd really like to know how it's defined under this legislation. I expect this to be another thing to manipulate for the usual suspects, just like the carer benefits that oh so many of our lovely youngwans reap the benefits of.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/01/1002018211/italian-artist-sells-invisible-sculpture-for-real-money

source for whoever may want

edit: missed your link in OP.

Citizensinfo says;

“Arts” means any creative or interpretative expression (whether traditional or contemporary) in whatever form, and includes, in particular, visual arts, theatre, literature, music, dance, opera, film, circus and architecture, and includes any medium when used for those purposes.

I'm going to start filming myself throwing seizures on the ground, call it new-age breakdancing and then apply. ez€€€€€

Luxembourgo

A ridiculous idea, dreamt up by a do gooder who wants to be loved. A frivolous waste of taxpayers money by to you by the same morons that's locked you in a pen to see a concert.

Does digital art qualify?

Because with new AI based tools on the market generating art now requires no more effort than typing text into a box describing what type of image you want the AI to generate. In fact, recently to much controversy a person using an AI to generate digital art recently won a competition, traditional artists were not happy with the result.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647665#Comment_119647665

Did you see the painting that won the competition? The AI couldn't even do faces and the sleeves were done wrong.

I've never seen an AI painting that was even half decent. An AI will never will be able to do a painting of the quality of Titian or Raphael so the whole thing is moot. Assuming it won fair and square the other paintings must have been absolute muck.

growleaves

I'm sceptical of this artists' UBI.

A lot of Irish "artists" are plugged into a matrix of social/political advocacy and more state subsidies will just mean more of the same - explictly political pieces which will win praise for their social meaning.

Brussels Sprout

It doesn't seem like a lot of money in the greater scheme of things. I'm up for giving it a shot and let's see what gets produced from it.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650231#Comment_119650231

Maybe you're right. There's at least a chance that good things could come from it

SEPT 23 1989

Poverty is a great driver of art especially with bands when they start out

when the money comes everything usually goes to sh1t

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650249#Comment_119650249

On the contrary - given the collapse in income streams for musicians in the past 20 years or so often the only artists and bands who can stick at it long enough to be successful are those from privileged backgrounds.

Aside: usually the people who come out with guff like this are not in poverty themselves. It's akin to the love of older people sending younger people off to war.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058264338/new-weekly-basic-income-for-artists

First, who decides what "art" is, and what "artists" are eligible? Its all subjective really? 

"Football is made up of subjective feeling, of suggestion - and, in that, Anfield is unbeatable. Put a **** hanging from a stick in the middle of this passionate, crazy stadium and there are people who will tell you it's a work of art. It's not: it's a **** hanging from a stick."

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/blues-v-reds-was-sht-on-a-stick-80391

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650231#Comment_119650231

I don't think it's really about looking to produce the next Girl With a Pearl Earring, it's more about testing the workability of UBI with a sector with traditionally precarious incomes, might easily have done it with small farmers instead if there weren't so many of them.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650249#Comment_119650249

Poverty is a driver away from art.

May have been true in the past when the vast majority had fúck all.

But bills got to be paid now.

It's an interesting pilot which is one of a kind in the world I think.

Will be interesting to see what metrics they apply to deem it a success or failure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650378#Comment_119650378

might easily have done it with small farmers instead if there weren't so many of them.

There is already a scheme called Farm Assist, as well as multiple grants.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650706#Comment_119650706

Poverty is a driver away from art. May have been true in the past when the vast majority had fúck all

Oddly it may explain the decline of the arts, because the arts are left to privileged middle class types, who know nothing about anything, and have never really suffered like many people do, so their art only resonates with their own kind.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650873#Comment_119650873

Not a huge art person but I agree it's more the poor living in strife addiction problems mental health issue that made the best art not recognised at the time but when dead all their stuff got flogged off.

Multipass

I don’t see why it should be more than the basic social welfare - if that payment is sufficient for the disabled, pensioners etc, then it should be sufficient to maintain artists while they produce work that they can sell to supplement their income.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650960#Comment_119650960

Elephant in the room is what they call art may not be seen as that by the buyers. Why their not earning any money. 🤔

John Doe1

Can they not just borrow off their rich parents?

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650873#Comment_119650873

Compared with a hundred years ago, we have a generous social welfare system, almost full employment, plus a variety of grants for the arts (accessing those is another matter).

How did anyone create anything back then?

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058264338/new-weekly-basic-income-for-artists

Did you actually read the links you posted? It's a lot tighter than what you suggested.

There is a legitimate ideological point to be made that there should not be any state-mandated support for the arts. I somewhat agree with that point.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651178#Comment_119651178

A hundred years ago, the tenements in Dublin were the worst in Europe, and the poverty in rural areas was as bad if not worse. Personally I'm glad that we have a social welfare system and some very limited degree of state financed support for the arts.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651205#Comment_119651205

What am I suggesting? I read it again, and it again seems more broad than than the first time I read it.

My main concern is that its just a "pilot", with potential to widen the net much further. Just like anyone who writes a book seems to be entitled to an artistic tax exemption.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651224#Comment_119651224

You should take it up with the strawman who wants to go back to living in tenements and rural poverty. Getting back to the topic, do you think this pilot scheme is a good idea, and should be expanded out?

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651248#Comment_119651248

Someone who successfully writes and has published a book and receives income from it is entitled to avail of income tax exemption on that part of their income. It does not mean that they are exempt from tax on any other income.

Do you agree with the very lax corporation tax regime?

It is reported that the likes of Apple, Microsoft, etc funnel enormous profits through Ireland and pay derisory amounts of corporation tax. It's interesting that your concern is about a pilot scheme for a few artists, which at most will cost the taxpayer a few million, rather than the billions legally avoided by massive MNC's.

EOQRTL

Why is an artist who can't find work entitled to more money than than the factory worker who can't find work?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651269#Comment_119651269

MNC pay 12.5% CT here, like most other firms.

There are various tax reliefs that may reduce effective CT rates below 12.5%.

y0ssar1an22

i would support this if the state owned 10% (stand in figure for illustration purposes), of all future earnings.

that way you can put money in, and when the 1/10000 strikes, you make the money back.

Weren't there already grants and supports for artists in Ireland? Is this new basic income added to the existing supports they receive?

If so, being an artist seems a rather cushy number. There's probably tax relief too, so you get supported by the State, while also selling whatever you make.

The DayDream

The universal basic income is supposed to support you so you can make art/survive without having to spend all your time and energy at a draining day job. If you're asking 'How is an artist who can't find work different than a factory worker who can't find work?' then you just don't get it at all.

I have a degree in fine art and have had months or even years where I couldn't do anything creative because I had to work some crappy job to get by. I did factory work myself, 12 hr nights in a medical device factory and I wanted to kill myself. It ruined my mental and physical health (I got some horrible skin rash from the stress)

I am hoping they widen the scheme as I hadn't heard about it and I just got fired from another crappy job, this one in retail. I was there 2 years and tried my best only to be told 'it wasn't the right environment for me.' The reason we need a scheme like this is because when you get a fine art degree there are no jobs in the field besides teaching and that requires another additional qualification and is actually a separate career altogether that may not suit everyone.

So you are left with the menial types of jobs you can get without a degree - hospitality, retail, customer service. I've done them all, and now that I'm no longer in my 20s (nowhere near them in fact) and just got fired from another one, I will never bother with a job like that ever again. Because those jobs aren't worth it. The pay is low, you're often physically drained by being on your feet all day, mentally drained by dealing with the insane/idiotic public, and I have also found that the management you work for in these positions range from the merely disrespectful to the downright tyrannical. The lower you are paid the worse everyone treats you. The environments are just very oppressive. That's why these places can't get staff any more - not just artists, everyone is realizing it's not worth dealing with the outrageous nonsense these places put you through.

When you are a creative person, having to spend the majority of your waking hours doing something that isn't your calling really, really gnaws at you. I know nobody likes to work, but if you really are creative it's a different feeling, it's like being a fish out of water it feels so suffocating. I worked with a girl who used to say she didn't like having too many days off as she got bored at home with nothing to do. Artists are not like that, in fact, I would say that type of person is basically the opposite of me (also evidenced by the fact she was really got at the job and I got sacked lol)

And that's another thing to consider - a lot of artists just arent good at anything else. The modern work environment often demands a high level of conformity, a terminally upbeat personality, and a corporate bootlicker outlook on life, while any type of creativity or individuality is looked upon with disdain.

I had to apply for the dole now and if I can't get onto this scheme at some point I imagine I'll be forced onto Jobpath for the 3rd time in my life where they'll try and force me to apply for jobs I have proven I will only ever last at for 2 years max even though I try hard at them. I shouldn't be made sit there and listen to someone who is probably an ex-retail worker themselves (like the last 2 advisors I had admitted they were) how to jazz up my CV to get another job in a call centre or hotel.

I'll happily work in a regular job that pays a living (not minimum) wage and isn't degrading or soul sucking. But where are those jobs? Well, you need a different qualification for them. And unfortunately when I was growing up we were told to follow our dreams and passions. I guess I was dumb for believing that but here we are.

I find a lot of people in STEM will scoff and basically say if what you do doesn't make money then it has no worth and you should be made to give it up and work at something else. Well imagine if we lived in a society with no art/music/books/films except for that which was produced by the offspring of the wealthy. That would suck. Or imagine if we lived in a world where all the money was in art and no one cared that you could code an app, like it was considered a worthless skill. Wouldn't it be awful for you to be forced to do something else than what you are good at or passionate about?

A world where everyone can follow their passion - that would be amazing. And if you don't have a passion that's okay too we will still need plumbers.

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653086#Comment_119653086

Exactly.

It's just enhanced dole.

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653366#Comment_119653366

I dont think taxpayers should be forced to fund your lifestyle dreams.

Get a job and pay your own way.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653366#Comment_119653366

Sorry, but I don't have much the least bit of sympathy for you.

You seem to have an attitude that because you did a fine arts degree, menial jobs are beneath you. Do you think that because you label yourself creative that you should be exempt from having to work for a living?

You have an anti-work attitude, especially seeing as you said you'd be happy to apply for the dole. You just don't want to work. You want to faff about, doing fcukall under the guise of being an artist.

You may face facts. You did a useless degree and are now hoping that the tax payer will prop you up.

maccored

art covers more than drawing and painting. people would be whinging if no-one wrote any music, wrote books or make tv

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654830#Comment_119654830

Yet, all this stuff gets done without taxpayer subsidies (apart from the pre-existing arts grants and tax breaks in Ireland)

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650249#Comment_119650249

try it yourself. not easy to create music, commit to gigging AND keep a job because the music doesnt pay since people now expect it for free. I was talking to a feela who made his money in music in the 70s - then you could use poverty as a driver as you could actually turn a coin writing and playing music. You cant do that anymore as tight fisted eejits think Spotify is great.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654867#Comment_119654867

youshould try being a musician then too - you;d soon change your tune. I's bet you get your music off spotify or some other streaming service. the world has changed now people expect everything for free

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654876#Comment_119654876

Yes, almost anyone I know who earns money playing music, has another source of income too. Live music does pay though, depending on if you play what people want.

But do musicians/artists need more state subisidies?

BrianD3

Sounds like feel good fluff and only viable because of the small numbers that will get this payment. From what I've read, you have to apply/qualify for this artist payment and then are randomly selected. Given that someone has to assess the applications and given the small size of this country, there's always a danger of nepotism/favouritism.

Also not means tested unlike most other state supports.

I've had to give up my career to care for a relative - as I didn't pass the means test for carer's allowance, I get 1850 per year (carer's support grant) for looking after a person. While these artists get 16,900 per year.

Before this, I was a scientist and it was far from a stellar career. Many science graduates do not work in science due to the poor pay and career prospects. Should incomes be supplemented, after all we keep hearing about how vital science is. Also, given the number of scientific discoveries made by hobby scientists over the years, should we be given taxpayers' money to fart around in our garden sheds doing "research" lest we come up with something useful?

The arguments that artists need this payment as otherwise only rich people could become artists - applies to other occupations too. Best of luck to anyone who wants to become a commercial pilot if they don't already have money.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653366#Comment_119653366

You do realise that there are many office type jobs out there that don't require any associated degrees? You don't have to be doing these menial type jobs. Have a look at credit control/debt reconciliation or office based sales jobs.. you'll earn a relatively decent salary and do a 9-5 with some job security. (you can do the same with work at home customer service roles.. which are aimed at housewives, but I imagine you could be creative in the same time they spend on raising kids)

As for your universal basic income, you should be expected to fund your own life. The rest of us are. I've written 6 books, 2 of them published, made very little from them, but I still managed to write while working full-time. And I'll continue to write more while the interest is there. This expectation that others pay your way is.. meh.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654915#Comment_119654915

live music pays for cover bands - thats not who the subsidies are aimed at

I Blame Sheeple

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654876#Comment_119654876

Spotify is a paid service and you will get paid (unfortunately, it's minuscule) if your stuff gets plays.

I gave up nearly 12 years of my life chasing my passion and got nowhere and made about €300 in winnings – I hit a certain age and realized it's time to move on. I think you should too because your passion is turning into bitterness and anger judging by your posts.

growleaves

A lot of art in the past was done by aristocrats or people with sinecures - in this country think Edmund Spenser, Lord Dunsany, Dean Swift, the Yeats family.

Or at the other end you had penniless travelling musicians or otherwise dirt poor people like Van Gogh.

When Patrick O'Brian was writing novels and living in the south of France in the 1970s he didn't have electricity or running water. Colin Wilson lived in a tent outside to write his first book.

Ideally some kind of lifestyle business, and buying a tiny cottage in the countryside for as cheap as possible, may be the best bet.

The DayDream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654317#Comment_119654317

If you read my post you would have seen that I never said menial jobs were beneath me - in fact it's the opposite. I have done them all. But you only saw what you wanted to see to confirm your own bias as you began frothing at the mouth immediately upon hearing that someone doesn't want to work a minimum wage job.

As I said I did 12 hour nights in a factory. I have worked in retail for the past 2 years. During college I worked in a hotel bartending until 4 am almost every Friday and Saturday night including some midweek shifts. Before that I worked in a call centre for 2 years.

And I already admitted that the degree is useless as far as finding a regular job. Not sure why you think that is some brilliant insight you have come up with - that fact is literally the reason for the scheme. That was why I posted, because people seem to not get that this is why the scheme has come about.

I don't need to 'label myself creative'. Earning a degree in fine art and having your artwork be selected and hung in exhibitions had already proved that.

I never said I was looking for sympathy - I explained why the scheme was deemed necessary and tried to give a bit of background about the type of person who it is suitable for and why. You totally ignored all that, and also ignored the fact I have worked in all these menial jobs because you wanted to label me a layabout and put me down.

There was little point in you even contributing to the discussion because you are already had your mind made up. You didn't even read or take on board any of the points except ones you thought confirmed your own bias.

I guess I'll go faff about now, with the taxpayer propping me up. Though since I have been working and paying tax the last 2 years I won't feel too guilty.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653366#Comment_119653366

Thank you so much for explaining all of that. I find it really uplifting, despite all the difficulties you you have had. I've done a lot of the stuff you mention, and others too, much of it soul destroying. I wish you all the best and hope you find your dream!

backwards_man

I am torn on this idea. On the one hand I totally agree that if you dont foster the arts you end up with no pipeline of talent that is so vital to the culture of a country. It would be a shame if eveyone only did jobs that paid well and could earn a living from. Save us from a future where everyone works in IT because it is the only job that pays well (I am half joking here, I work in IT myself).

But on the other hand if an artist is any good their talent would have been spotted by now and as they say cream rises to the top. Many a successful artist has come from nothing. How can you seperate the wheat from the chaff whe deciding who gets this grant? Ideally you want those with real talant to get it. I suspect a portion of people receiving this will produce nothing of cultural value at all and are happy to simply take the money as a means of avoiding real paid work.

To the OP, I have worked in IT for 25 years and have not enjoyed most of the jobs I have had. Worked to the point of total mental exhaustion. Totally soul destroying, mind numbingly boring jobs with horrible managers. I am a Director now but I still detest aspects of the work I have to do. I woudl have loved to have been a stay at home parent for the past 10 years and for the next 9 but no one would pay me to do that! We all dont get what we want from life.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681184#Comment_119681184

I am torn on this idea. On the one hand I totally agree that if you dont foster the arts you end up with no pipeline of talent that is so vital to the culture of a country. It would be a shame if eveyone only did jobs that paid well and could earn a living from. 

Yeah, but it's not like we're starting from scratch here, where those in the Arts don't receive funding already.. they most certainly do. This country is already very generous to it's artistic community.

I'm not seeing much in the way of sound argument as to why more money should be spent.. especially when there are already so many demands on the Irish economy. This just seems.. unneeded, when artists could be supporting themselves quite easily if they're willing to lower their expectations for the kind of lifestyle they're going to have, or have a supportive partner.

Potential-Monke

Most people change jobs when what they do no longer support their lifestyle. And for such a subjective subject, I think it's a crazy, stupid and pointless grant that has no right to be taken from taxpayers money.

My niecephew enquired about it, being all artsy and stuff, and was basically told you nearly need to already have an income stream from selling your art before you can get it. So it's not for newbies, it's for the nearly established who are struggling. Still seems like a waste to me, propping up other peoples lives because they want to do what they want to do. Feck the rest of us.

"Artists" added to list of people I hate because they get things I have to pay for. It's a long list...

kowloon

If you're angry that people won't pay for your art you maybe need to do what most people do and get a job you don't necessarily like. The way society currently works the market determines the value of something. You can argue that it shouldn't be that way, and I would happily read about any alternative system, but I don't see how an artist is worth subsidising but others aren't.

There are plenty of people in **** jobs who might have made it in professional sports but didn't take the risk, or people with great ideas for inventions that couldn't develop them. I know someone who would happily give up their job to work with a charity they volunteer for but they have to support a family.

The argument for Universal Basic Income is that people who don't want to work permanently in a job that pays regularly can afford to spend time learning new things, tinkering with new inventions, making hand-carved dildos, or even producing art. All of those things could be considered cultural enrichment. I'm on board with everyone working less, or needing to work less. There's already a scheme that allows artists claim jobseekers for a year without having to look for work.

The idea of any centralised authority approving selected artists is also lame. I doubt someone painting pictures of the Taoiseach sitting on the bog would be approved.

Strumms

Pretty much all League Of Ireland players are amateur, 100% GAA players too.. would they not be too knackered after the physical exertions and mental taxation and physical of training, traveling, playing matches, media work, etc… ? None of them are professionals but train multiple hours a week in gyms and on pitches… and work or study or all three…But artists ? Give me a break.

private citizens who pursue art as a hobby, a business or a combination of both really should not be entitled to be enabled with payments from the taxpayers…. Grant, sure, proportionate to what they are doing and the finances of the country but the administration of this shîtshow will cost a bomb too… got the Green Party all over it. Ninja them..