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Do affordable EVs exist in Ireland

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭mc2022B2TF


    So there is still vrt relief of hybrids for example if they co2 emissions are less than 50?



  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    In that case they would qualify for the 7% VRT band.



  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭gabbo is coming


    But you can get 7 seats?



  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭gabbo is coming


    Agree though, 50kw too small for that van/car. 75kw and I'd definitely consider it. Great reviews



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,336 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Aye, just watched parts of that review and he says you can get it in 7 seater form for €1k more. So that's a €36k EV 7-seater. Which I suppose is not too bad as there are very few of those about.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    I think I have some sympathy with the main arguments of this thread. Can I sense check my perspective? I’d like to have my mind changed.

    The SUV space seems reasonable to look at, given their popularity in ICE and EV. We currently own a SEAT Ateca due kids. It is worth adding that crossover and suv tags get blurred, but in my experience a 2008 is a very different proposition to a 3008, likewise an Ateca and Arona. I add this as some EVs seem to almost find the middle of the two and blur comparisons. There is a lot of small SUV EV, not sure the iD4 size has much competition just yet, without going to even higher prices.

    In practical terms a SEAT Ateca, or a Peugeot 3008 new is €37,000, give or take €1,500 for spec. As far as I can see no true SUV/ similar sized EV exists under €48,000 euro, give or take €1,500 for spec again, and really we could say it’s more like €52,000.

    At larger size, 7 seats was mentioned above, Skoda Kodiaq looks about 49-€50,000 average spec, the very similar EV Enyaq seems to start at €65,000.

    So €10,000 seems a minimum extra cost for an EV, after the government grant is supposed to have subsidised us. Average fuel savings for average drivers would be in the region of €1,500 to €2,000 depending on ability to charge for “free” with PV (which isn’t free to install). An EV charger will be €600ish. Motor Tax saving maybe €100, but I understand tyre costs increase.

    €10,000 upfront to save €1,500, more likely closer to €15,000 up front for SUVs larger than a crossover. For most people in todays climate this seems like a questionably investment, and a bad idea if requiring increasingly expensive finance for the upfront capital.

    I haven’t mentioned depreciation, strange supply and demand times right now, and ICE hasn’t depreciated at previous rates. But arguments can be made that both will eventually see more normal and similar depreciation curves, over a 4 year time horizon I am ignoring this given inability to assume much that will change the dynamic, after that ICE may struggle, but given what we are seeing and the costs, maybe we reach a stage where new ICE is banned in 2030, and our 2nd hand ICE are gold dust.

    The ioniq5 looks like a very fair comparison to high spec Ateca, and it’s 55x59000, almost 20,000 euros more. Really?

    Maths better if doing huge miles, but then I guess driving the type of driving that gives huge miles means needing to charge away from home more frequently, at higher charge costs.

    😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    We all do maths sometimes to suit ourselves but as a new EV owner, this was my thought process....although there are other considerations for people that like cars, in my case I just wanted an EV.

    We very rarely buy new cars and use them to the end of their useful life. Some do, but most people fortunate enough to be able to buy new cars do so every few years. Especially now with pcp making it easier for people to do so. And very, very few fund the full price themselves so there's not much more initial outlay really, despite the headline prices being much higher.

    So no matter how we pay for them we depreciate them a portion of their new cost. I dont care about deposits, monthly payments, final values, deoreciation is real true cost.

    Say 3 years, and the car is worth 2/3 of its new value which is ballpark where market is at the moment. Between 60-70% anyway.

    Taking grants being taken away next year as that's an unknown, but it will affect things if it comes to pass, a 50k EV and a 40k ICE SUV will depreciate by 15-20k and 12-16k respectively.

    I'm assuming consumer sentiment towards ICE stays the same, which I think it will for at least the life of the current generation of cars for sale before government policies really kick in.

    So the cost gap of depreciation is not 10k any more over the ownership period, but more like 3-4k, maybe up to 5k as my figures are not exact.

    So that's the figure you work from with reduced running costs, somewhere between 1000 and 2000 a year. For a lot of people that's going to be close and that's why the EV v ICE debate rages on, there's no clear winner.

    Taking away financial considerations, you then have a discussion about image and perception, range anxiety if you regularly drive long distances, how the cars look feel and how they fit into your life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭innrain


    I'd compare same brand offering like Tucson vs Ioniq5 A coffee per month more expensive




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭DaveyDave


    Yeah it really depends on the type of car you're looking at and the bigger SUV/crossovers lose out on grants making them even more expensive as you go up in spec or battery size.

    My Cupra Born was a very similar price to a high spec 1.5 Golf automatic I was looking at and my sister went for a €47k Tucson hybrid as they couldn't get an Ioniq 5 so for them the EV was still a similar price.

    Obviously outside of a specific handful of cars most people will still need a hefty increase to make the jump to EV from what they would normally drive. Hopefully the likes of the MG4 being under €30k can suit people's needs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,149 ✭✭✭crisco10


    I still think (biased as I am) that the base spec Ioniq 5 offers the next best value compared to the MGs. It's almost not really a representation of the EV market.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,630 ✭✭✭amacca


    If the grant were to go next year would that not put a big dent in depreciation of EVs?


    Less people buy at higher price point, less used EVs, used EV prices remain high?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    How much is a base spec ioniq5 post grants now?Incl delivery.

    I've read it used to be sub 40k. Hard to gauge from donedeal ads if they have extras, grant included etc but there's a huge range from cheapest to dearest.

    Most ads aren't even advertising a particular car, more an invitation to contact them to order one?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    So the theory goes.

    Plus the increase in new prices qould make used ones more attractive at any given price level



  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Ummagumma_78




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    That's not bad at all, I do like the ioniq5. The problem is supply though isn't it? Same old story



  • Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭handpref


    Agree. Probably represents the best value of any established EV at the 58kwh battery size, price point - a lot of car for the money.

    I would have liked to get one but the 58 battery pack just didn’t have the range for us, the 77 was too expensive compared to the id3 Tour, that was all before things got silly with pricing.

    At €41,500 I don’t see it having much competition versus the id3 dx or seat alternative, same cars underneath , I’d even rate it above the 77kwh id4 dx which is very poorly spec’d and +€50k.

    The Niro may be better equipped to take on that €41,500 price point with high end spec, bigger battery, range etc provided they don’t keep jacking up the price.

    All in all a great machine the Ioniq 5.



  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭mc2022B2TF


    The ioniq base gets full seai grant and also vrt relief.

    Even the executive plus

    It's probably only a 280km car though in reality at any sort of speed.

    That's its only downfall but even at that it's more than enough range for most.

    BTW hyundai have a lot of supply coming before Xmas and into the new year so not as long a wait as u may think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,149 ✭✭✭crisco10



    Fair comment re range, we did 1800km thru France at 120kph on the autoroutea this summer, and range was probably about 300km. Bt didn't really mind wih lots of 150kw to 200kw Ionity charging available.

    Pottering around at 80kph though, it was about 400km.

    Huge difference that your speed makes to energy consumption. (Square relationship!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,336 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    @poker--addict - "I haven’t mentioned depreciation"


    😁


    If you buy a reasonably priced EV with the grant now, you will likely have extremely low depreciation compared to buying an ICE car. Just a tiny example, my sister in law bought a base Ioniq 5 at the start of the year. She could sell it for more than she paid for it today. And the grant is still here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Some great points. Range anxiety is not an issue for me, I have run out of petrol more than once! doh!

    On depreciation, my ICE looks to be selling for basically what I bought it at 2.5 years ago too.

    Innrain, I like your comparison; it is the type I have not been finding with ease. Not sure how big the Ioniq is inside, but it looks like a decent size externally. The price difference looks to be around 5k, which is much better than 10-15k, and cost over life (or ownership) is likely to be at least equal to the average annual KM. Beyond Hyundai is there any others you would draw up to compare?

    😎



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  • Registered Users Posts: 64,336 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Ioniq 5 is very big inside. It has a wheelbase of 3000mm, which is the same as giant SUVs like the Audi Q7, Tesla Model X and Volvo XC90



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭innrain


    From the Peugeot website

    208

    2008

    Electric

    vs Diesel

    2k difference.

     Citroën C4

    similar when comparing to the automatic gearbox.

    Even the beamer line-up does not look like 15k difference to me




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    The 2008 is a crossover at best, and is not an SUV in my experience. I test drove it, and rejected it due to non existent back seats. It is probably not a car many would wish to do more than 20,000KM per annum in. That meas two things 1) less fuel savings due to less miles and 2)it is at a lower price ranges. So obviously 10k difference cant happen - but if we flip it into percentage terms then it is 7% more expensive than the ICE model. Any sign of the 3008 EV or its price?

    Had the pleasure of an Ioniq5 test drive this morning. There is no way it can be compared to the Tucson either. The Tucson is a proper large SUV/jeep. The Ioniq5 is in simple terms smaller and lower. I thought the tucson v ioniq5 comparison above was a fair one to bust my theory of expect to spend 10,000e more on an EV, and now that I have seen both side by side, the comparison actually supports my feeling. An EV tuscon would cost way more than the Ioniq5!!!

    That is not to knock the Ioniq5, it really is an impressive car, the large boot will make it adequate for many who seek out an SUV for space reasons.

    Cant comment on the BMW line up as not familiar with the specs of i4 v the rest.

    😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭innrain


    The Ioniq5 is in simple terms smaller and lower.

    I think you're a bit mistaken.

    The dimensions from Hyundai website. It is lower but not smaller. Clever design I believe

    Also in more details here https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/hyundai-tucson-2020-suv-vs-hyundai-ioniq-5-2021-suv/?consentmsg=634d4d8a506b2



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,336 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    The extra 32cm of wheelbase means the Ioniq 5 is a full size of a vehicle bigger than the Tucson in terms of usable space inside. Tucson is mid size, Ioniq 5 is full size (same wheelbase as giants like Audi Q7, Tesla Model X, Volvo XC90)


    Perhaps @poker--addict is talking more about the "looks"? The Tucson looks like a big SUV / crossover and has butch looks. The Ioniq 5 not so much, looks more like an oversized hatchback



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    You are both correct. I couldn’t believe the boot size when I saw it, it looks huge. Of course the interior of car is spacious too.

    There is no definition of an SUV but most definitions give a nod towards elevated from the ground floors or driving positions, as opposed to lower hatchbacks.

    if the Tucson was full EV tomorrow, what price would it be relative to the Ioniq5?

    😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    15-20% more going roughly with the Kona and kona ev. So an extra 6-8k on the executive spec which is around 45-47k. I reckon it would be cheaper, but just guessing.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It's one of my main problems with the SUV term, before that cars were sensibly categorised into body style and size (A, B, C, etc). Now many models get lumped into a meaningless SUV category which leads to ignorant campaigners bemoaning the rise of marketing terms SUVs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Resurrecting this debate again, having been doing some more research.

    It is really annoying to search EV and get Kona, 2008s, and then Enyaq in the same search. They couldn’t be more dissimilar in terms of looks or function.

    While there is no firm suv definition most would expect “elevated driving position” to be central to any definition, which none of the crossovers have, and arguably cars like ioniq5 are borderline (hence debate above about ioniq 5 v tuscon).

    I am hopeful 2023 might see some additional competition and EV starting to make clear financial sense over their ICE direct comparison.

    😎



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    SUV.....Squint Ur Vision. Suspect a car to be an SUV? Stand back, hold your breath and squint your eyes. If it resembles a Quashqai, it's an SUV.

    Ridiculous how many cars are labelled SUV. Smaller versions bing crossovers. Give me strength.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



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