Buying Next Door to Social House

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648884#Comment_119648884

I'd welcome you as a neighbour, anytime, Graces7.

Peintre Celebre

Loueze you are obviously very defensive against the perception of council tenants being worse tenants and neighbours and good for you. I'm sure you and your family were great neighbours

But personally there is absolutely zero chance I'd take the risk. Colleague of mine bought a lovely new build in an estate, five months later he sold it. Saved his arse off for years, moved in with the in laws with the kids to gather money, and next door and across the road went in social housing with no control over their kids, domestics, suspected drug dealing. Felt sorry for him the constant stress and strain he was under. That sealed the deal for me I will spend the extra and go elsewhere.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654354#Comment_119654354

Yeah, you could - and then a neighbour could decide to move and sell their house to the council, and you would still end up living next door or in close proximity to social tenants.

Much as many here would like to see social tenants all bunched together and tossed into huge housing estates with no services and no prospects which experience has shown breeds the very kind of social problems being discussed, its not going to happen.

So you may as well get over your notion that if you spend enough money you can buy yourself somewhere guaranteed to be free from social housing unless you're prepared to buy a one off house out in the sticks somewhere. Which is also your choice.

Good luck.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654488#Comment_119654488

It is about probabilities though as people have repeatedly said. In the council estate I lived in (80s-90s), there would have been maybe 10% of residents having some sort of anti-social issues. A smaller percentage would have had serious or even very serious anti-social behavior. All of my friends grew up in social housing estates and ALL of them, given the chance, preferred to buy elsewhere.

Around 2000 or so, a new small social estate was built beside the one we lived in. The people who moved in were quite different than the 80's working class families. It was the new generation of people relying on social housing, unemployed, single parents etc. It completely changed the area, the issues were much worse (think people shooting up in the laneway beside the house etc) and my parents moved out a few years later. They moved into a private estate and haven't had to worry about kids throwing stones at the windows or the car again.

From the states point of view it is better to spread social housing around. It isn't necessarily better for the families living next to problem tenants though, especially given the states hands-off, always take the easiest option approach. As a parent I want my kids to grow up in a safe area without the type of bad influences I grew up with. I would make no apologies about that either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654574#Comment_119654574

And if it turns out your kids grow up and can't afford to buy, (as many of the current generation can't) and end up as social tenants themselves - would you be happy at people labelling them and referring to them in the kind of terms and with the kind of prejudice that this thread has shown? Lumping them in with the "bad influences" they don't want their kids grown up near?

I bet you wouldn't.

What about all those low income families currently on waiting lists, simply because they are priced out of buying a home? Will you label them the same way too? Attach a stigma to them based on their ability to buy a home?

I hope it keeps fine for you. I really do. As the saying goes "there but for the grace of god, go I."

Deebles McBeebles

Reading this thread it really comes across that the problem isn't whether it's social housing, owner-occupier or private renting. It's the quality of parenting or lack thereof that most people mention as the main problem.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654644#Comment_119654644

There is a stigma attached to social housing in Ireland. If my kids needed to go on the housing list then I would expect people would be worried about them moving in next door, yes. It is different of course when you get to know someone. In the case of the OP, they have no idea who is going to move in. You are focused on individuals, I am more focused on the probability of a bad tenant moving in.

I think we should move away from the current method of allocating social housing and instead reserve social housing for those who have a history of working, are retired or sick. Those who don't have a history of working can go on the HAP system and find their own accommodation.

With record low unemployment, we still have over half of the applicant households in Dublin city relying on social welfare only. In fingal it is even worse. If you are buying a property, have a look at that document

Dublin is the capital city with over 1/5th of the population living here. Of course the overall numbers are going to be much higher for this county.

Is there a breakdown on the type of social welfare payments those applicants are receiving? Or are you assuming its majority unemployment?

How many of those applications are from immigrants newly arrived in the country?

Are you just attaching more labels?

thugtomas

No matter where you purchase these days, there is every chance that a Local Authority will end up purchasing a house or apartment

HerrKuehn

I was talking about the proportion rather than absolute numbers. For example in Fingal, there is a 72% chance that someone on the housing list has only social welfare as income. All the details you desire are in the document. But here you go:

I am afraid it isn't the immigrants who are to blame for being workshy either (only 256 out of 5589 in Fingal are non EU):

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655154#Comment_119655154

So

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653517#Comment_119653517

Your reply is an entirely predictable evasion.. If you read my posts? One reason I came out here was to get away from , well, folk who think as you do. Only been here a few years. I know the reality very very well I assure you from decades in the UK as well as in Ireland. If council estates are ghettos they have been made in large part as ghettoes by folk like those here insisting less well off folk all be put together in identical matching houses . Uniformity. And of course this leads to the possibility of social problems. Especially when the Gardai take little or no interest or action when trouble starts. Which I assure you is the case on offshore islands. After all I am a social tenant!!!!! Leper! Unclean!!! All of the examples you quote started with ONE crime, yes crime, left unchecked by An Gardai Siochana. Think about it? The fact that you have gone to the trouble of working out statistics! And never taken this into account. There was one thread way back of a man in a flat with a repeatedly aggressive neighbour. He called the Gardai when he had been attacked and all they suggested was that he should move.. Nothing was or is done re anti social and criminal behaviour . I would not want you as a neighbour by the way. lol,, and now they are trying to dilute the ghettoes hoping that this will lessen by example the bad behaviour.. But when there are attitudes such as we see here?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655080#Comment_119655080

Re

I think we should move away from the current method of allocating social housing and instead reserve social housing for those who have a history of working, are retired or sick. Those who don't have a history of working can go on the HAP system and find their own accommodation.

I'd cut it the other way: social housing should only be for those unable to work.

HAP and mortgage assistance used for people with work history.

amf78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657745#Comment_119657745

People seem to confuse sometimes certainties with probabilities.

While I agree that it is bad to generalize or discriminate on any grounds, merely pointing out that scenario A is more likely than scenario B is politically incorrect nowadays.

Those who insist living next door to a social house/estate doesn't entail any additional risk or inconvenience, should ask themselves how many high end developments are also mixed...

Helping those who can't help themselves might well be a moral obligation for any healthy society, but we got so carried away with it we don't seem to distinguish between having a roof over one's head vs affording the same standard of living a middle class earner should have (often with less effort). Mixing is suddenly a great idea, but as long as it's between social homes and the middle class homes, not with the "elites".

The claim that the wealth gap between rich and poor is ever increasing with no middle class in between is often met with derision.

But until Micheal Martin or the Apple VP in Ireland share the neighborhood (or the wall) with social tenants, we shouldn't single out the middle class as hypocrites.

genie123

Id advise against it, my neighbour's sold their house to the council 10 years ago and the tenant now is a pig, Garden is destroyed and smell of dog dirt which is over powering in the summer. He smashed the stain glass window in his front door and never replaced he has just cardboard in it instead. Its embarrassing for me when I've people calling.

Have emailed both Waterford and Kilkenny County council about him as not sure which one its under and they just ignore me. My mam and and I've several friends who grew up in council houses and they treated their property with respect, it just you can be unlucky like me.

Guildenstern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464285#Comment_120464285

The only time I ever got anything out of a local authority to my satisfaction was when I went to my local councillor. If I was you, I'd approach a cllr in the first instance. Good luck.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655080#Comment_119655080

Interesting table, thanks.

Do those numbers include tenants on HAP?

HAP is still a form of Social Welfare, but they may be covered under a different scheme that does not reflect on this table?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119658510#Comment_119658510

What do you mean by mortgage assistance though?

We could also consider cost rentals only going to those working, and increase the affordable home scheme.

Encourage people to buy their property as much as possible and even if they only own a stake in an affordable home, it is still "their stake" and is much more likley to be treated with respect.

Pride in home ownership is bound to have positive effects for neighbours etc also.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132397#Comment_120132397

Indeed.

There are no social homes in the high end private developments. But I think this is only right.

It wouldn't be fair to put an unemployed social tenant in a 2 million euro apartment in Ballsbridge, but I do take your point that the wealthy dont experience the problems with social tenants that the middle earners do.

Personally, I would suggest people avoid buying new build properties, since the liklehood of the Local council buying up social homes, on top of their 10% or 20% allocation is quite real.

We have created a scenario where it is cheaper for the councils to purchase than it is for them to build their own homes.

The councils have targets for social housing, so the easiest and cheapest option, is to buy up as many homes in new private developments, as possible.

Prices are cheaper and the properties are empty, so they can be purchased without the complication of sitting tenants.

A private buyer wanting to avoid social housing neighbours, would generally be better buying in a settled, second hand development.

Which is a crazy state of affairs, but nonetheless, is true.

Red Silurian

We moved in beside a council house a few years ago. Never an issue with the tennant who, I would argue, is more community driven than we are. The council on the other hand are sitting on their hands about shared chimney stack repairs we raised with them last year

To be completely fair, we could be having the exact same issues with a private landlord or a private occupier

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464557#Comment_120464557

42% of all new builds last year were purchased by LAs,AHBs or institutional Investors. So you can bet your last euro that more than 10% of any new build estates are going towards social housing. Certainly in major cities.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464595#Comment_120464595

Yep. Its some crazy numbers alright. Really doesnt help private buyers get on the ladder either.

Hadnt realised it was as high as 42%. Thats even worse than I thought!

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464600#Comment_120464600

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/cuckoo-funds-and-the-state-snap-up-42pc-of-new-homes-as-first-time-buyers-feel-the-squeeze-42388816.html

Yeah was shocked when I saw the total figure. Knew it was higher than the 10% but didn't think be as high as 42%. But then again, the government are throwing bottomless amounts of cash at the homeless issue to try save face. Criminal to think though that as a first time buyer you are directly bidding against the State. Pay your taxes and that's what you get in return. If you didn't have the State directly meddling in first time buyer market for new builds you wouldn't see as high as price inflation.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657745#Comment_119657745

Werent you looking for some strong men to help you get two waster unemployed locals who live near you who had kidnapped your cat?

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573199#Comment_119573199

If you had young children would you hjave wanted them living next door to that neighbor though. Would you have been comfortable with yuour kids running in and out of the neighbors house with their kids and vice versa like most kids do with neighbors kids.

fg1406

The house next door to me is social housing and thank god the tenants are wonderful. They take great pride in their home and are very approachable.

there is a house oppositethat the council have but that family are a nightmare. The father tried keeping a horse in the back garden. The council bring a skip to their house 3-4 times a year to clear out the hoarded rubbish that accumulates in their garden. Their kids are feral. I feel sorry for the kids as they have had no rearing at all.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480759#Comment_120480759

That reminds me of horrible family in a house where a I used to live. Social tenants in it. The council just left the giant bins you would see outside the back of shops in the front garden. They still wouldnt even put the rubbish in those properly and the council would come along and sort the recycling skip from the rubbish skip every month with a special bin truck just for that family.

Feral kids too. That one family is the reason at least 6 houses were sold there. And what do the council do? Bought some of those houses that were sold and moved relatives of these people into them. People selling used to pray that potential buyers wouldnt take a drive around the corner. So glad we sold nearer the start of that. Felt sorry for anyone who actually lived around the corner who had to sell. Havent kept up with the place since. I often thought about taking a drive down to see if it has gotten any worse, but never bothered. Just glad to be out of it.

Worst part was that were were some lovely families who got the social allocation and had to ask to be moved due to that family. Total case of one rotten apple destroying everything.

You would think it would have been easier to take the one rotten apple out of the barrel and put it somewhere else. It would seem thats not what happens.

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486632#Comment_120486632

This issue with problematic residents like that is, the council will take the stance of what's the point in putting resources into finding them alternative accommodation when you're just going to have the same issues/complaints in the new location.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486831#Comment_120486831

They should at least charge them for the waste disposal. Deduction from benefits.

If they manage their own rubbish in the future like everyone else, no additional charges, same as everyone else.

Why do councils find it so hard to treat people equitably.

Continuing to fund these tenants poor lifestyles is the last thing that will ever bring about a positve change.

Not to mention its costing the tax payer non essential spend, forever.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486831#Comment_120486831

Thats a good point. Everyone thinks that problem council tenants will get moved on but they never are.

The Mighty Quinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465149#Comment_120465149

I have two young kids who thankfully arrived after they'd left. And abso-effin-lutely not would I have liked them in their house, it'd have been flat out VERBOTEN.