Being English? Being French? Being Russian? Being Irish?

Have all those labels changed so much that they are now meaningless? The EU has given a bigger umbrella to group under which has downplayed a competitive nationalism in Europe. But Scotland is reasserting a national identity. What does it mean to be Irish anymore? Does it mean anything? Brexit would seem to be a reassertion of British identity and quite an intolerant one in many respects. Do you think that national identity is meaningless now in Western Europe. But not Russia? What’s going on?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058260020/being-english-being-french-being-russian-being-irish

Here is an educational video which will answer your questions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpZbaz3Wlfw

Miadhc

Father Ted references, Guinness and jokes about leaving the immersion on. I think that just about sums up Irishness in 2022.

joseywhales

It all depends on your vision of the future. For many the end game is to have distinct cultural identities and even competition but within a framework that does not allow violence to influence competitive outcomes. To me that looks like one all encompassing supranational body that is connected democratically with total universal suffrage. That idea does not preclude national identity. Obviously this is not star trek and in reality we will be killing each other for a few thousand years more, perhaps forever if violence is insurmountable. For now we will have to awkwardly stumble through geo politics and the ordinary citizens interests are manipulated into believing that 'x' defeating 'y' is their purpose in life, when really they should just be maximizing the experience of what fleeting time they have to live. In my mind even hedonism is more noble than tribalism.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511178#Comment_119511178

In my mind even hedonism is more noble than tribalism

Tribalism is inherently more noble than hedonism - hedonism is inherently selfish as its focused on pleasures of the self, whereas tribalism attempts to preserve/protect not just the self and the family but the next group outward which is the tribe (parish/county/nation/continent etc)

Tribalism is an inherent part of human nature, if you try to defy that nature you get serious unrest. Look at former yugoslavia, without an unnaturally strong leader to unify the various tribes it all went to **** with secessionist movements and ethnic cleansing. All because you had some croats in serb areas, serbs in bosnian areas, etc

The future of europe will be sadly be one of mass bloodshed and ethnic cleansing, maybe in 50 years, maybe in 100 years. Ethnic tensions are only rising in the continent, and without some grand unifying nationalism to get all the different ethnicities and immigrants to pull together, tensions will rip the countries apart. Unless of course we get aliens invading the earth, we all need a common enemy eh?

Miadhc

When a countries native language is gone. You lose a massive part of your identity and eventually just become another consumerist vassal state of the US or UK. Ireland is no more than an economy these days.

HerrKuehn

English, French and Russian are just standard nationalities. Being Irish is different though, it is a state of mind. You could be born and raised in a yurt in Mongolia and still be "Irish" with the right frame of mind.

Furze99

Nationalism is stronger than ever I think, certainly as strong as it's ever been in Ireland. Scottish and English nationalism are also to the fore in recent years. Nationalism is a corrosive force as it focuses on differences between neighbours i.e. what makes Irish people different from Scottish or French people and so on. But it's also valuable as it encourages us to value aspects of our own culture. If we could combine the latter with patriotism, we'd have the best of deals.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511235#Comment_119511235

Irish hasn't gone, the number of Irish school is growing and the number of students as well every year.

Miadhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511295#Comment_119511295

Yeah I'm aware of that and i am happy to hear it but it means very little. There is no real advantage to having a good level of Irish language if there is no will from the powers that be to bring about a revival of it. Everything will still be done in English. Just look anytime there's a thread on here or Reddit about trying to revive the language its attacked and belittled by most.

The Jews done a good job at reviving Hebrew Because they were pretty much forced to learn it.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511226#Comment_119511226

I have to disagree on that one. Tribalism is inherently selfish, people do not commit to tribes out of love for their fellow members but rather out of fear of not having collective security. As best illustrated in a prison population. For me, at least hedonism is honest and without manipulation, I think its disgraceful that one should interrupt the experience of another through coercion and fear for some abstract purpose of tribe 'A' beating tribe 'B'. I do agree though that tribalism is part of human nature and I don't see it ending soon. However just like many other human instincts that we have learned to suppress, instead relying on rational collective principles, such as outlawing rape or respecting property, we can overcome tribalism in the future.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511324#Comment_119511324

The very fact that we managed to, as a society, outlaw things like rape and theft is owed partly due to tribalism. Our society was built by the tribe that believes in these rights and morals. There are plenty of cultures on the globe that believe rape of a woman by a man is okay, or that stoning people to death or chopping off their hands are morally acceptable punishments. If we suppress our tribalistic urges, then we will not be able to maintain this free society as other tribes will coopt it and drive it toward their own goals.

Iran was once a free and liberalish society, until the Islamic revolution happened. Stronger tribalism from the liberal side could well have stopped it.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511316#Comment_119511316

We are multi cultural now so we can't block people from getting a job because they need Irish.

My kids go to irish primary school and it is 2 classes per year, in the local english speaking school it is 5. In the Irish school you have kids who parents are from Eastern Europe/India etc. Not saying it is huge numbers but it interesting.

Forcing kids to learn Irish like I got done in school never works, the way it was thought years ago was terrible and ended up with people hating the language. Everything has moved on now.

The benefits of Irish? well loads especially for kids who find it easier then to pick up other languages as well as Irish.

I see lots of people trying to say Irish is dead etc, they are fully entitled to their own opinion. IN reality if you check Irish schools all over Ireland they have waiting lists as long as your arm but they don't have the investment to provide all the spaces. But even if they could you would still probably see a majority who won't send

I am not claiming you need to speak Irish to be Irish or anything, just saying that the language is on a comeback, very slowly but on a comeback

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511316#Comment_119511316

Jews in the newly formed Israel did a good job with Hebrew(not Yiddish which is a German pidgin language of sorts) quite simply because they had to. Jews were coming to Israel from all over the world with different backgrounds and different languages and they needed a lingua franca to avoid a Tower of Babel situation. Before WW2 and in the earlier days of Zionism other languages were considered. English was a good runner for a time as was German. Needless to say the latter found no favour post war. So reviving Hebrew was required and served a greater purpose in unifying the new nation.

Ireland is and was quite different. We already had a lingua franca in English and as Irish fell out of favour with the intelligensia and business class it ended up as a backwater language of the poor and English took over. This has happened to many languages throughout Europe and the world. France had a load of dialects even distinct languages until French took over mostly in the 19th century. In Scotland Irish on the backs of missionaries and settlers took over from and wiped out Pictish because it became the language of religion, science and trade and in turn was nearly wiped out by English spreading northwards.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511356#Comment_119511356

There is nothing wrong with having competing ideologies represented by tribes and their unique culture, as you point out this competition leads to evolution, the advancement of our laws and social norms for the benefit of everyone. These ideologies can compete democratically rather than through warfare. However, the current form of that tribalism includes the justification of violence which never ends. That is why I like large supranational bodies because they provide authority that aims to reduce conflict and increase cooperation amongst countries, if the carrot is economic prosperity then I am ok with that.

Ireland is extremely distinctive still - it's not simply an economy. I wish there wasn't so much cultural cringe from insecure people though. The Welsh are great for pride in their language.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511259#Comment_119511259

What’s the Irish frame of mind?

Dyr

Leo said that if someone manages to step foot in Ireland and think that they're Irish, then they're Irish so we're grand.

Obviously we need to keep the qualitiies that make u Irish, tolerance and acceptance and all that assorted bullshit. Oddly enough those are the qualities that now make the British British the French French and so on. Funny that.

Also OP forgot to mention Citizenship of the world. Dissapoint

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511704#Comment_119511704

Supranational bodies are toothless - look at the UN. Once any of the nations under it are strong enough to defend themselves (or have a nuclear deterrent), the UN is powerless to stop.

Only people the UN can hold to account are warlords in sub saharan Africa.

As for a world without violence well.. violence is the supreme authority. Higher than the law, for the law itself is based on the threat of violence for those who break it. If there was no threat of violence, most people would not respect the laws, and the laws could not be enforced.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511235#Comment_119511235

There are plenty of studies out there of the effects of a dominant lingua franca on local languages. English is an easer tool in so many ways and that in its own right can reduce the enthusiasm and the obvious need to speak Irish. We should still teach it and encourage people to learn it but we can't force motivation on anyone.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

It's who you are not what you are that's important. I always feel a bit sad for people who think their personally and identity is wrapped up in the geographical location of their birth and the need to take pride in a nations achievements rather than go and do something worthwhile of their own.

I always remember this exchange from the Big Bang Theory:

Howard: Wow, you must be very proud.

Beverly Hofstadter: Why? They're not my accomplishments.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513923#Comment_119513923

What I can't understand is people that have to make up straw men so they feel like they're capable of winning an argument. I feel a bit sad for them

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514328#Comment_119514328

There is no such thing as a strawman viewpoint. A straman argument, yes - but what I posted was a viewpoint, not an argument. I'm not replying to anyone.

You could argue that it's off topic, but I'd disagree.

Butson

I was living in the UK at the time of Brexit and know plenty of people that voted leave, some good friends of mine. There is not a racist bone in their bodies. England is probably the most multicultural country in Europe. In Ireland we seem to get mixed up between the EU and Europe. They are different things. Devolution of Scotland and Wales did wake up some sort of dormant English nationalism though for sure. Some of it ugly.

With regards to here in Ireland, it does get that feeling like we are just sort of an economic zone within the EU now, attracting in US companies. We've definitely lost something over the last decade. It's all about the GDP and economy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513923#Comment_119513923

I’m exploring the topic. So just to draw it out: the rugby team in NZ, no interest? The Aga Khan trophy, nothing? It’s all just about the individual? It sounds Thatcheresque: no such thing as society. It sounds individualistic and narcissistic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514690#Comment_119514690

Well, no interest in rugby generally. But if I did, maybe. My point is, I'm not going to go and pretend to like rugby just because Ireland is playing. Nor am I going to celebrate if they win - unless I'm on the team and did something to earn it. The only think I know about the Aga Khan trophy is that it's something to do with horses, so yeah - nothing.

You can have society and community without attaching it to nationality - and it will probbaly be more genuine for that reason. I'm part of an art society, for example - and have lived in art communites. This was far more benefitial than "being Irish" because I chose to be an artist and I chose to be a part of the community. I have a stronger connection rather than falling back on one that's already there.

Individualistic, perhaps. Narcissistic - why?

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514559#Comment_119514559

Strawmanned the definiton of Strawman 😂

" a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514822#Comment_119514822

...except I'm not actually opposing anything.

The OP asked a question: does being Irish mean anything?

I answered: not in my case, no.

If anything, the strawman here is you trying to claim that I opposed an argument, when no argument existed in the first place.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513863#Comment_119513863

My counter example would be the European union. Without the threat of violence , we have had one the most peaceful periods in Europe for centuries. By making countries codependent through integrated trade, they have made it extremely costly to engage in conflict. For over a thousand years before the formation of the European union there has been war and conflict in mainland Europe. Sometimes I think we need to be reminded that we are living still in the most peaceful and prosperous time I'm human history, I am not sure if taking a step backward and embracing more nationalism is going to improve that.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514966#Comment_119514966

I'd say the availability of nuclear weapons has brought more peace in the last century than the EU has.

The threat of mutually assured destruction that would come from a nuclear exchange ensures peace between nations. Again, its the threat of force that is responsible.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515509#Comment_119515509

It would, if there were better protocols to stop madmen like Trump and Putin getting their hands on them. I'm pretty sure they'd happily accept mutually assured destruction if the alternative were to have to be put on trial for crimes against humanity or even just losing control. If they can't have it, no one can gave it.

Some men just want to watch the world burn, eh Mr. Wayne?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515586#Comment_119515586

If you believe that any nuclear states concentrate all the power and decision making in the hands of 1 person like that, you are very naive.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515648#Comment_119515648

It's the one person who can put friendly people in the places that matter. There is nothing more dangerous than an brilliant psychopath, as they say. In any case, as far as I know, no-one can veto a US president's order, although obviously, he won't be the one pushing the button.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515787#Comment_119515787

Well as you said we had two madmen like Trump and Putin in power for decades and yet no nuclear launches, so either your characterisation of them as madmen is exaggerated, or they do not have the sole power to decide on nuclear launches.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515844#Comment_119515844

I was using them as examples, do saying , "well, Trump never did it, so we're safe" is a moot point.

Putin, in the other hand, refuses to take the option off the table. Not sure I'd class him as sane.

The fact that no one hasn't doesn't mean no one can.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511171#Comment_119511171

Careful now !

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119516070#Comment_119516070

The fact that no one has started a war between EU members either, doesnt mean no one can. Unlikely, just as 1 "madman" going rogue and trying to launch a nuke is incredibly unlikely. There are huge power structures beneath them all of whom are interested in self-preservation. Allowing a nuclear launch is not self-preservation. It will not happen, and that is what keep the peace between nuclear armed states.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518996#Comment_119518996

This is my point - self-preservation has gone if they've lost everything. Even Hitler overrode the self-preservation gene in the end. If he'd had nukes, would he have fired them in an act of revenge before he bit the bullet? Or had a nice luxurious underground shelter to retreat to for a several years?

I agree with what you're fundamentally saying - the world is safer because it really is an endgame option and more every effort is made to resolve conflicts before they get to the war phase - but what if they personally have nothing else to lose?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514799#Comment_119514799

Ok. It’s very different to what I knew. Essentially where you live is irrelevant and only the things personally connected and chosen by you matter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511158#Comment_119511158

Finally got around to looking at this. While I remembered the series name (I never watched it very much) I had to Google it to see what years it ran.

At one level the clip is a collection of cliches and at another it’s just an attempted piss take. Behind it there seems to be an assertion that this is all there is. Overall there is just a sense of nothing, more tragedy than comedy. In the 5/6 years since it ended it has dated a lot.

An interesting time capsule.

NiceFella

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511288#Comment_119511288

I don't think thinking about your nationality automatically means nationalism. You can be proud of the culture without being a bigot.

NiceFella

We are living in a world were a Tech revolution has occured over the past 15 years or so. We are more connected than ever and external influence has never been more apparrent.

People are so annamored by their "smart" devices that we are behaving like robots sucking in mounds of useless information. Im willing to think that many have a bigger relationship to their phone than themselves. So of course its corrosive to culture.

We had a minister not long ago urging students to study something "practical" i.e not humanities arts etc. Thats a fusgraceful statement.

If you want to have meaning in being irish, its up to you to preserve it, weather it be playing music, telling the history/stories, playing our sports etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519357#Comment_119519357

I see nationality like religion: if you're born into one that is agreeable to you, great. If you're not then why should you let it define who you are? I had the same amount of choice and control over being baptised a catholic as I did being born Irish - why would I live my life according to either when I don't connect with them? Why do they get to define the individuals living within a society or community?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519592#Comment_119519592

As I said I’m just trying to get a sense of where in 2022 things are at. You may as well be Russian or French or from Paraguay in terms of your identity as far as your concerned. It’s really illuminating to see that expressed as clearly as that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519627#Comment_119519627

We're a lot more global - people are aware now that they don't have to settle for the environment they happen to be born in. Since the dawn of the internet and cheap travel people can reseach and go. We have more influences open to us and more resources to follow them.

And thus, nationality is diuted.