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Weather at Amundsen-Scott (South pole)

  • 17-08-2022 11:48am
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭

    The South pole is turning out of the dark hemisphere of the Earth and the extended dawn is presently happening with sunrise on the September Equinox where the South pole turns through the planet's divisor and into the light hemisphere for 6 months or half an orbit-

    It is presently at its coldest at the South pole comparable to a location prior to sunrise is generally cold before it becomes exposed to solar radiation after the Sun comes into view as a function of daily rotation. The separate surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the planet has the same effect by hemispheres insofar as the South pole does not rotate as a function of daily rotation yet has a single day/night cycle with the coldest period presently experienced at the station in Antarctica-

    The planet does not tilt towards and away from the central Sun, the planet has two distinct surface rotations acting in combination and it is time for 21st century people to recognise the fact that when daily rotation and all its effects are subtracted, the entire surface of the planet turns once and parallel to the orbital plane arising from the planet's orbital motion alone.

    Once again, the North/South poles, where daily rotation velocity is zero, experience a single day/night cycle per year/orbit of the Sun. This rotation is extended on to the entire surface using the expanding and contracting surface areas (with the North/South poles at their centre) where the Sun remains in view and out of sight with those areas currently contracting towards the September Equinox

    As always, this is information sharing so the idea is either to improve on or build on the explanation for productive and creative purposes.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The temperature fluctuation in that graph is entirely a property of the surface rotation parallel to the orbital plane where the North/South poles enters and exits the dark and light hemisphere of the Earth every 6 months where the Sun remains in view or out of sight. As the South pole is nearing the planet's divisor, the breaking dawn is presently dramatic if readers care to visit the South pole webcam.

    Climate research starts here as one planetary dynamic is represented by an annual temperature fluctuation before adding daily rotation as another input. Dealing with planetary climate as a property of planetary dynamics takes a lot of work and may not suit those who view climate as solely a property of atmospheric gases.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno

    I'm not well versed in our planetary system by any stretch, but found this on social media and thought it was interesting. No idea if it's true though!!!

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    Some readers experience an aura of sorts when rain is approaching, other feel a sense of calm when the working day is finished and early evening is setting in while others still experience a change around mid-August as the seasonal changes make themselves felt. In this case the first ambient light at the South pole signals the approach of that polar latitude to the light hemisphere of the Earth where the location will fill with daylight over the next week and about 3 weeks before the single sunrise of the September Equinox-

    These events are happening whether people stop to pay attention or not and especially the rotations which make it possible in a Sun-centred system. Once again, it is not for everyone and I am okay with that.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    Of all the innovations, people quietly like the new perspective which includes both Jupiter and the Sun. This is especially for those who can appreciate what is in front of them

    Galileo used the moons of Jupiter to demonstrate that not all celestial objects run around the Earth-

    Jupiter's moons run back and forth around their parent planet. It is now possible to see Venus and Mercury run back and forth around our parent star at the centre of the solar system as seen from a satellite tracking with the Earth around that star and free from daily rotational influences-

    Next month, Venus will be seen moving from right to left and behind the Sun whereas the time lapse above shows Venus passing between the slower moving Earth and central Sun. It is really new and only possible with satellite imaging so we join Galileo to modern technology with just the slightest shift in perspective by scaling up motions and the objects involved.

    People genuinely like the way to partition the motions of the planets depending whether they are moving faster and slower than the Earth.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard

    It's true. But weirdly, I think Jupiter does eventually travel around the sun using the Barycenter but it takes 12 years or so.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    I never require interested readers to go through the long process of consideration in order to present imaging, which affirms cause and effect, including this one at centre of this topic where dawn at the South pole is presently happening as the polar location turns nearer to the light hemisphere of the Earth.

    It took years of investigation to untangle false premises and assertions as the history most here inherit is bogus, even from a theoretical point of view. Long before Newton conjured the 'scientific method' into existence, there were genuine experimentalists working on the responses of the cyclical tides to planetary dynamics, including what is called a common centre of gravity (Page 10-11)-

    There was an issue with the seasonal component related to the timekeeping facility called the 'Aequation of Natural Dayes' or what is called the Equation of Time in our era and vividly describe in Wallis's work. I resolved the issue for the variable component for each noon cycle comes from the surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth insofar as the orbital motion of the Earth has a variable speed then so does the surface rotation responsible for the polar day/night cycle described in this thread. When constant daily rotation combines with the variable rotation arising from the Earth's orbital motion, different periods are measured for each individual noon cycle.

    The descriptions of a common centre of gravity are bogus from many, many technical standpoints so part of the swindle is getting people to be distracted from what they can appreciate and the object of these presentations. It is enough that I can deal with all the issues without having to answer them, however, it is also enough that readers keep their focus on weather at the South pole and what causes it.

    Post edited by Orion402 on

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,930 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium

    Danno, I think there would be a barycentre for each planet and also an overall barycenter for the solar system. It's probable that all but Jupiter and Saturn would have a barycentre within the Sun's interior although not at the centre of the Sun. Saturn has 30% of the mass of Jupiter and is twice as far from the Sun which together means that its barycentre would be considerably closer to the Sun. When Jupiter and Saturn are on the same side of the Sun (as was the case in 2021 and on a cycle of 19.86 years) then the solar system barycentre is furthest from the Sun and beyond the Jupiter barycentre itself.

    It's basically like an elephant, a tortoise and a gerbil on two different see-saws. The balance points go round with the planets so essentially it is almost indistinguishable from the conventional 12 and 30 year orbits of the two latgest planets. The masses of the rest of the planets are relatively insignificant and the two larger ones (Uranus, Neptune) are roughly four and six times the distance of Jupiter which further reduces the displacement of their individual barycentres.

    The Sun-Jupiter interactions result in a periodic wobble in the earth's axial orientation that makes the poles wander over a scale of about a kilometre or less. This may have some minor effects on our magnetic field also.

    The Jupiter-Saturn interaction over 19.86 years shows up as a second order variable in solar variability. Also Jupiter's 11.86 year period shows up as another second order period over time, although the main dominant period is 10.3 years. The "eleven year" solar cycle was a term coined at a time when that had been an average period (early 20th century) but longer term historical time studies show that solar variations tend to do this complex 200 year cycle -- a long set of "fast" and active cycles that average about 10 years, separated by two weaker intervals which are slower and seem to be closer to Jupiter's period if not a bit slower (13 years seems to be a rough estimate of the period of weak solar cycles when they come) -- over a long period, the usual pattern is 6-8 fast cycles and 2-4 slow ones every hundred years or so, with a 200-year period based on weak and very weak slowdowns. We have been in a slowdown since the 1999-2001 peak marked the end of a particularly long active phase. The weak cycles before that peaked in 1883, 1893, and 1905. Then going back further, you find four strong cycles 1838 to 1870 and the weaker Dalton minimum with its peaks coming in 1801, 1816 and 1830. Before that were eight strong cycles 1718 to 1787, and before those the Maunder minimum which was so weak that it hardly even had discernible peaks but those are given as 1670, 1682, 1693 and 1705. There was less reliable observation of sunspots before the Maunder but it's the same general pattern going back further and further.

    I have studied this quite a bit with the hope of finding cause and effect related to Jupiter and Saturn but obviously the main question is this -- if the Jupiter-Saturn interaction drives the fast cycles, then what makes that process temporarily stop so that only Jupiter (perhaps) is modulating the weaker cycles? The weak intervals do not always fall in the same orientations of Jupiter and Saturn, and I never have come up with any really plausible answer to the key question of what might turn off the J-S interactions or why that seems to vary from 2-3 cycle up to 5-6 in most dramatic cases like the Maunder. Of course it might all be coincidence and have nothing to do with the two largest planets at all. With these unpredictable long cycles of activity, we don't fully know the range of possibilities either, old historical accounts of the Sun going dark could be within its range of performance too, we assume not but there is no real reason to suppose that what we've observed in the telescope age is the full range of possible settings for solar variability.

    Some researchers think there is evidence of stronger solar variation in the post-glacial optimum period, basing that on ratios of carbon atoms in certain archaeological studies. It would be interesting to find out what happened to solar variation during the earlier glacial maximum. The general concept is that the atmosphere warms up slightly during active solar cycles because despite the surface area of the Sun darkened by sunspots, overall, the Sun gives off more radiation and therefore heat reaching the earth's atmosphere.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,930 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium

    Something unrelated which I find fascinating ... the ratio of masses of the four largest planets is 10:3:1 where 1 is the combined mass of Uranus and Neptiune.

    CH4 is of course methane, the key ingredient of their atmospheres. (Carbon's atomic weight is close to 10 times hydrogen).

    I make no claim of significance for this, but it is a very odd coincidence. There are no subatomic particles that correspond to the two almost equal fractions of the hydrogen atom (basically the proton) represented by U and N. I think those are about 45% and 55% of one unit respectively, so Saturn is three units and Jupiter is ten. The earth is the next largest planet and has only a small fraction of that unit of mass, being only a few per cent the mass of either Uranus or Neptune.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The digression is really unwelcome, however, most readers should now know that climate change modelling where the conditions in a greenhouse are meant to scale up to the Earth's atmosphere have its roots in the emergence of a subculture where the fall of an apple was meant to scale up to planetary dynamics. It is nearly impossible to come to understand what Newton tried to do without first going through the treatise of Wallis where the Earth's tides are sensitive to planetary dynamics and the position of the moon.

    After the tides, atmospheric and ocean conditions are sensitive to the motions of the planet and this is where climate research actually resides rather than the experimental projections which are crude and almost unusable despite their popularity among those who traffic in dire conclusions.

    The South pole location is turning ever closer to the light hemisphere of the Earth because of the exact way our planet orbits the Sun and that location will cross the divisor and into the light hemisphere in a number of weeks-

    The relationship of Earth sciences to Earth dynamics in a Sun-centred system can be as complicated as the relationship between the human body and its terrestrial surroundings yet being complicated is not the same thing as being contrived.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    I once thought that modellers would be interested in the fact that the Sun has a forward motion through space as a function of the solar system's galactic orbital motion and where the planets spend a period of their orbits travelling with the Sun as part of galactic orbital motion and a period travelling in the opposite direction. When allied with the axiom that planets travel faster closer to the Sun, it introduces the galactic component which influences annual planetary motion.

    That was quite a number of years ago and would be attractive to certain people, however, the majority want to retain the intellectual fluff of a 'barycentre' inherited from late 17th century theorists.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The longevity of the great storm in Jupiter's Southern hemisphere is a result of its Equatorial climate where there is a tiny 3 degree inclination with negligible Arctic/Antarctic circles. Our planet has a sizable 23 degree inclination so the storms that normally develop in hurricane season have only a limited shelf life with conditions unfavourable for most of the year outside that hurricane season. It is much more reasonable to include the expansion and contraction of areas bounded by the Arctic/Antarctic circle for both weather purposes within the umbrella of planetary climate.

    On a separate innovation, the upscaling of the time lapse of Jupiter's moons, running back and forth around their parent star, to the back and forth motions of Mercury and Venus around our central Sun as seen from a satellite tracking with a slower moving Earth should delight observers at whatever level they view the images.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The time lapse representing the motions of the Earth and the moon in a Sun-centred system should be wonderful for observers and especially at the moment as the North and South poles approach the planet's divisor separating light and dark hemispheres. There are so many topics to consider, for example, from July to September as the circle where the Sun remains out of sight is contracting and replaced after the September Equinox when the area where the Sun remains constantly in view starts to expand.

    The arrival of dawn this week within the time lapse is particularly lovely.

    When the South pole is in the dark hemisphere of the Earth, the reflected light of the moon is dominant, however, when dawn and sunlight show up, it diminishes to barely a point of light.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    Dawn is fully established at the South Pole station presently-

    Dawn and twilight have a different nature to the same experience at our latitudes. It is unfortunate that observers and academics do not accept the traits of dawn/twilight across latitudes due to daily rotation much less the separate dawn/twilight cause at the North/South poles where there is just a single sunrise and sunset each year.

    We live in an era of air travel so can hop across latitudes fairly quickly. Many notice the rapid change from daylight to darkness with a minimal dawn/twilight at latitudes closer to the Equator such as Southern Spain compared to the long drawn out experience at our latitudes. The reason behind the differences between Spain and Ireland is that latitudinal speeds are much faster on the Iberian peninsula therefore a location passes more quickly through the planet's divisor and into the dark hemisphere (twilight) and out into the light hemisphere (dawn) as the planet turns once every day. The rotational velocity at our latitude is much slower so where a location in Donegal passes through the divisor, the transition to darkness is longer than in Andalusia.

    It should be so much common sense and an enjoyable explanation for why twilight/dawn lengths differ across latitudes away from the Equator and entirely separate to the polar dawn/twilight arising from a separate rotational cause. That satisfaction may eventually emerge with a little effort.

  • Registered Users Posts: 32,636 ✭✭✭✭Graces7

    What a truly beautiful and scholarly thread.. I will read with great interest.. Thank you

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    Constant dawn is truly established at the South pole presently and before the one and only sunrise there in a few weeks as the South polar location turns into the light hemisphere of the planet-

    Around the Equinox, another event will happen where Venus will pass behind the Sun while Mercury passes between the Sun and the slower moving Earth as seen from a satellite tracking with the Earth around the Sun at the centre of all our motions. It will be the reverse of what is seen in the following time lapse-

    Just scroll the dates forward in the website above so the observer can make sense of what is anticipated and when it happens-

    There is no need to go into the reasons why this is new as only a satellite, free of daily rotational influences, is capable of making these observations and that suffices to demonstrate the back and forth motions of the faster moving Venus and Mercury as they run smaller circuits closer to the central Sun.

    From what I understand, some moderator in the astronomy forum would ban this perspective should I reproduce this visual explanation in that forum. Considering this resolves a 400 year old dispute which plagued the emergence of a moving Earth in a Sun-centred system, it can be dismaying without being surprising why something so easy to discern is treated with such disdain.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The South pole location is experiencing its one and only sunrise presently as it turns into the light hemisphere of the Earth for the next 6 months-

    The event is there to be witnessed by those who have come to appreciate that the planet does not tilt towards and away from the Sun but rather there are two surface rotations acting in combination to create the Equinox with the single sunrise/sunset on the Equinox at the polar latitudes representative of the surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The Great Equinox of 2022

    To close out this thread, there are so many events presently happening on the Equinox and many of them new to readers who have not lost their ability to be curious and delighted with what 21st century technology allows when used properly.

    The obverse of the 2012 Venus transit is happening as Venus is presently passing behind the Sun as seen from a slower moving Earth while Mercury is passing between the Earth and the central, stationary Sun from a satellite peering into the inner solar system where our parent star exists-

    Mercury moves faster than the Earth therefore the planet can be seen moving faster than the change in position of the background stars (due to the orbital motion of the Earth) so while the background stars move in unison, Mercury changes from left to right faster (retrograde motion to the old astronomers). Mercury shows its dark hemisphere to us so will get dimmer as it reaches the point where it overtakes us in our mutual orbits.

    Venus is moving from right to left and behind the Sun as it enters the range of the C3 camera. It shows its light hemisphere to us so will appear bright.

    Jupiter is now closest to us and is therefore brightest as the faster moving Earth overtakes the slower moving giant. Like Mercury, it is at the centre of its retrograde motion, however, as the first Sun-centred researchers used a stationary field of stars to gauge its motion, there are two separate perspectives of direct/retrograde motions which are entirely new for observers to enjoy.

    Tomorrow is also the Equinox and the beginning of the expansion of circumferences in the next 3 months where the Sun remains in view (South pole) or out of sight (North pole).

    It is the interpretative abilities aided by that ability to be curious and inspired that makes the effort worthwhile for it is there to be enjoyed as a more intimate relationship between ourselves, the planet and the solar system. It demonstrates a person's own worth using technology properly and it could not have been done in any other era than this one.

    Post edited by Orion402 on

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    "But the telescope plainly shows us its [Venus] horns to be as bounded and distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a very large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same disc when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning appearances." Galileo

    When Galileo spoke about the end of the morning appearance, that would be the top right in the assembly of images above taken over 18 months. Venus is presently transitioning to an evening appearance and to the left of the Sun as seen from the slower moving Earth. The contemporary SOHO satellite fills in the gap at the top and bottom of the image so presently the gap represents Venus behind the Sun-

    Using imaging instead of jargon makes it easy for the observer in this era to put observations in context, whether it is the phases of the moon or the phases of Venus. It just takes a small effort to get the interpretative faculties up and running and especially when something new is on offer and plenty of issues to discuss as topics move between solar system to terrestrial science scales.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    Interpretation is so much more satisfying than predictions for while the latter is suitable for short term weather modelling, the former is for researching planetary climate and its links to planetary dynamics on a solar system scale.

    Because it is a special day with Jupiter being so close (centre of retrograde), observers should use their interpretative faculties to remove the false contentions based on climate change modelling as researching dynamics and climate together are not mutually exclusive.

    Venus and Mercury are opposite sides of the central parent star to each other presently as seen from the slower moving Earth further away. Venus is in direct motion behind the Sun while Mercury is in retrograde motion if people choose to use the older astronomical language along with a conjunction of the two inner planets-

    Jupiter too is presently at the centre of retrograde but at its brightest as seen from the closest distance between our planet and the giant planet further away from the Sun than we are-

    There are so many enjoyable challenges in solar system research in relation to climate, geology and biology along with larger celestial structures to remain stuck with erroneous notions that offer no images while misusing astronomical language to such an extent that the term 'astronomer' has lost its significance and integrity.

  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402

    The current weather at the South pole is incredibly cold with a Wind Chill of -94° C

    As the South pole is now slightly less than at right angles to the central Sun so the Sun sweeps out the widest circle close to the horizon moving from right to left (at the North pole it is from left to right).

    As the North pole continues to turn towards the central Sun as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth, the observed motion of the Sun becomes further above the horizon and moves in smaller circles. Away from the South pole (yet near it)and towards lower latitudes, the observed motion of the Sun becomes more complex as the two surface rotations mix.

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