Democracy being slowly dismantled in America and the UK

skimpydoo

Democracy is being slowly dismantled in America and the UK. Two countries that we have a close relationship with.

Trumps shenanigans including doxing the FBI agents who raided his gaff in Florida. The Republicans are out in large numbers defending Trump and defending the indefensible.

You have the Tory party out destroying agreements that they agreed to and sign. The penny is also dropping with more and more voters realising when they voted for Brexit they were sold a pup.

Should we be worried about this?

Threadbanned:

TonesJones

Overheal

I would say the looming Trump indictments for national defense Espionage to the contrary show the US may be on the road to recovering as a Democracy.

Agent Coulson

Both the Republican party and Tory party have been heavily funded for the last two decades by outside interests from foreign Countries that wouldn’t have the best intentions when it come to Democracy.

So no real surprise and yes we should be worried.

Sweetemotion

If more people vote for Trump and he wins, is that not democracy in action.

Rather than dismantled?

Dempo1

Some extraordinary comments and accusations on Fox News in defence of Trump, comparing the FBI to the gestapo, mind boggling stuff albeit you'd expect this on FOX , more disturbing, Senior Republican Politicians joining in, it beggar's belief.

The Tory leadership race equally alarming, Truss a shoe in and my word we Thought Boris was bad, she's woefully inept & utterly clueless.

Closer to home it's not much Better and defence of indefensible rife.

Should we be worried 🤔 we should be alarmed IMHO.

Jizique

UK was never that democratic with its FPTP electoral system. There are only 15% of seats that are ever likely to change party barring a one-off shock. A vote for a minor party whether LibDem, Green or UKIP is wasted. UK would be in a better place if UKIP had 15% of the seats for the last decade - instead they infiltrated and took over the tories. Then you have the unelected upper house.

US isn't much better - 2 senators from every state so Wyoming and North Dakota get 4 while California and Texas get 4. Electoral College system means a Republican vote in CA is as wasted as a Democratic vote in Kansas. Then in the House, you have mass gerrymandering instead of seats apportioned depending on the state vote. Plus FPTP and two main parties infiltrated by extremists.

Strumms

Trump…

attempting to steal a democratic election which he lost. And making all sorts of allegations about his opponents, creating the most divisive and violent tone for an election ever seen in the USA that saw the capital building violently stormed, 138 police officers injured, 5 of whom committed suicide in the aftermath of the riots. He couldn’t give two fûcks, an animal.

If it had occurred in some tin pot dictatorial outpost of a country it would have been condemned.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469827#Comment_119469827

That never happened though. Even when he was elected president he didn't get the most votes.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469827#Comment_119469827

Trump lost the popular vote both times

Tonesjones

Brexit was a democratic vote and the losing remainer side haven't stopped protesting and complaining since.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469868#Comment_119469868

The only side complaining about brexit lately is the victorious side who can't seem to sick to any of the agreements they sign.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469868#Comment_119469868

And how has Brexit gone for the UK since the public were lied to about it?

If someone votes for something based on being given information that isn't true, then it isn't democratic. That's the long and short of it.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469868#Comment_119469868

Brexit was hijacked by Cambridge Analytica and on top of that a lot of lies were told to ensure votes. If the UK took back control why is there problems at Dover?

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469877#Comment_119469877

They are dead right too.

Also my point proven . Look at the replies. Posters still not accepting it. But but but the lies.

Sweetemotion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469856#Comment_119469856

It's the United States of America.

More people voted for him Texas, Florida etc so he won those states.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469884#Comment_119469884

Oh yeah dead right, I can't wait for Liz Truss to continue getting it dead right. Just like Boris got it dead right.

Danzy

Democracy is not being dismantled ffs, stop being so dramatic.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469909#Comment_119469909

What would you call it?

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469901#Comment_119469901

As long as you are happy and not hurting anyone else I say go for it. Enjoy

sameoldname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469909#Comment_119469909

Only a few months ago plenty of posters here were just as dismissive of the idea that Russia would invade Ukraine.

A large proportion of voters in the US believe that the last election was stolen from them because a blonde dickhead told them so. Do you not see the danger in that?

mazdamiatamx5

UK could be facing into significant civil unrest if the recent Bank of England forecast is correct.

Democracy was dying in the US long before Trump came along. Election rigging, manipulation of voting districts/borders, corruption, etc. The list is rather long in how politicians have been eroding the mechanisms of democracy.. and it's been happening for ages. Although, TBH I can't imagine a democracy having only two parties capable of assuming any kind of power/authority... hardly suggestive of representing the population of such a large nation. America has always been a very elitist system, based on wealth and prestige. Hardly a wonderful example of democracy even at the best of times... It's all propaganda at the end of the day.

Honestly, I'd say democracy has been dying in western nations for decades with the power/effectiveness of the electorate being reduced. Restricting the power of the electorate to elections, means the people have very little actual influence over political groups over the long term. Big deal if a party loses office for four years.. they'll likely be back in office again within a decade, and policies implemented in office are rarely revoked easily, especially when it relates to the system of governance or politics.

OP, I'd say we're likely to see the end of democracy (as it was originally intended) within the next 40 years. Likely to see far more autocratic modes of governance. Perhaps similar to Asian democracies although I wouldn't be surprised to see us go further towards more totalitarian systems, under the guise of being a nanny state, the need to guide and protect the people from themselves, through ever increasing range of regulations, restrictions and economic costs rising to limit options for the middle/working class.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469916#Comment_119469916

The rise of ignorance and selfishness. Unfortunately we are starting to see the rise of it here as always follows from the US and Uk.

Fortunately we don't yet have a party which promotes such thinking, SF has historically harnessed the ignorant vote but are slowly realising that their vote mostly consists of the latter.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469881#Comment_119469881

The right wing have become obsessed with conspiracy theories, based on no evidence whatever, but as you suggest there is far more likelihood if anything that the pro-Brexit vote was dodgy. At the very least, even if there was no fraud around the actual vote, we know that the Brexit campaign was run on the basis of false promises and lies.

Allinall

Democracy is being dismantled because people are voting for stuff.

What influences peoples votes is a different story, but nothing to do with democracy being dismantled.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469994#Comment_119469994

Apparently 70% of Republican voters believed until recently that the 2020 result was fraudulent. One would hope that this % will reduce in time given the recent FBI raid. Perhaps I am overly optimistic but my hope and expectation that the rump Trump supporters will consist largely of the extreme far right, delusional conspiracy theorists and the downright mentally ill, and people in the actual payroll of the Trump crime family. I can understand why people voted Trump in 2016, they wanted an alternative to politics as usual as represented by the likes of HRC, but the evidence that Trump's campaign base at a senior level is basically run like a criminal mafia is now overwhelming.

My fear is that the corruption of the UK and US by Russian oligarch money is even more than we currently know. Based on publicly revealed information, the situation is already concerning.

If it is correct that Trump illegally took privileged info in relation to the US's nuclear weapons into his private abode, then this is treachery in both the moral and legal sense, and also deeply concerning regarding what his motivation was and what he intended to do (or maybe already has done) withy the info. Apparently the FBI conducted the recent search under the Espionage act, which is serious stuff.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469884#Comment_119469884

So, to clarify, you think that the UK is right to renege on international agreements? That is how a banana republic, or in this case, a banana constitutional monarchy, behaves.

[Deleted User]

At this stage with trump doxxing the FBI agents who executed the warrant only scum are supporting or trying the whataboutery dance in relation to him.

As for the UK they have a system that allows an unelected body to interfere with the country, so the bs about the EU was always bs. The corruption in the tories has been well documented so the actions and items exposed in the last few months aren't really a shock except for those living under a rock, and the next election is Labours to lose.

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470029#Comment_119470029

On this occasion yes absolutely.

jill_valentine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470025#Comment_119470025

There isn't time to right the ship, unfortunately. The seats up for contention in the mid terms favour the Republicans, and once they have the numbers to cripple Congress entirely then it's all over bar the shouting. America's already had its last meaningful presidential election for the forseeable future.

There isn't going to be another January 6th though because next election all the safeguards that only just about held last time - electors, contested votes, etc - will give, they've been quietly seeing to it, slotting Q Anon loons into place. And people don't know or care enough about the mechanics of rigging an election unless you can explain it in two sentences, so the illusion of due process is all takes to get away with it, you can see it even in this thread.

Whoever the GOP chooses for the desk is a formality after that, whatever becomes of Trump himself.

The future isn't looking very bright for the US - or Europe by extension - I'm afraid.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470057#Comment_119470057

And how do you expect that will work out for the UK?