Is the importation from America of Identity politics a good thing?

John Doe1

It seems to have basically caused nothing but further division in America than existed beforehand.

no of course it isnt its an entirely egotistical shouting contest viewpoint based on historical events that even if you accepted the version offered wholesale over there wouldnt ever apply in the same way here

Mongfinder General

Well - I go to work now and try to engage as little as possible with those who are different to me. Too much risk unless you’ve been friends with a person for a long time. Truly sad.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257060/is-the-importation-from-america-of-identity-politics-a-good-thing

Elaborate?

What are you defining as Identity Politics

Was this really Imported or is America loud and branding it a certain way

I could readily say that North vs South, Catholic vs. Protestant, etc showcases that "Identity Politics" is hardly a Yankee Doodle Dandemonium and not a new fad. The new fad is complaining about the politics of identity, and trying to shame people for having them.

Luxembourgo

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257060/is-the-importation-from-america-of-identity-politics-a-good-thing

Chuck an example up there, op.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416803#Comment_119416803

It would be this focus on encouraging the recognition of differences between people and elevating those differences to the point where they gain extra benefits/protections that are not available to the overall group. The projection of these differences as being persecuted in some manner, that they are victims, and as such, above any criticism directed towards them.

What you refer to would be tribalism which would be part of it.. and something that has always existed. The US vs THEM mentality based along some form of association. Now, western society was trying to reduce tribalism, as it tends to result in discrimination and racism.. but identity politics glorifies the differences, without taking any responsibility for racism/discrimination/elitism etc that manifests from those campaigns/crusades/etc as these movements tend to be rather aggressive in how they promote themselves.

This is appalling colonialist cultural appropriation. Identity politics in Ireland is imported from the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417034#Comment_119417034

Various aspects of BLM, feminism, race theorists, Incel associations, nationalist vs anti-nationalism, etc.. there's quite a list to choose from. Probably the easiest is to look at the social movements operating out of US university campuses, and how they express themselves.

I was asking the op to provide a few examples of identity politics in Ireland. It's their thread, after all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257060/is-the-importation-from-america-of-identity-politics-a-good-thing

As per usual: the conept is fine, but practioners taking things to fascistic extremes is what causes the problems.

Tony EH

No.

But it is such a small, tiny, miniscule, matter that it's hardly worth a mention and, in fact, the only time I see it mentioned is on here. In the real world, I have yet to see anyone talk about it in tangible terms and it doesn't have any real affect on anyone's lives.

Most people are far too preoccupied with the real issues that face them to be worried about something that they'll only ever see on the internet.

xxxxxxl

I wager that woman that got served Ribena instead of wine and did not like the looks of some statues would disagree. Odd you don't see her on RTE anymore. 🤔

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435826#Comment_119435826

You see it in workplace training now in Ireland. So, when people are expected to accept these ideas an nod along compliantly, in return for keeping their jobs, it has a real impact on their lives.

Tony EH

Whose "workplace"?

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436054#Comment_119436054

I won't ask people to name the places where they work. But I've seen it, and heard plenty of stories.

Here's one group providing training: https://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/training/intercultural-anti-racism-training

Looks like NUIG have built-into their core training program, for staff: https://www.nuigalway.ie/equalityanddiversity/editraining/#

https://www.nuigalway.ie/equalityanddiversity/editraining/unconsciousbias/

" It is University policy that all members of UMT, Academic Management Teams, Heads of School, Chairs of Committees, members of interview and promotion boards/panels, and other senior decision-makers attend an unconscious bias training workshop and refresh their training annually."

Their initial workshop is 3 hours long. I've never done more than an hour on this sort of stuff.

hotmail.com

No doubt that some Irish people regard American news as important if not more important than Irish news.

Often on the RTE News website, there is nothing but American news.

Irish news sites are daily telling us US abortion news, which has no relevance to us. Gun ownership is another click bait revenue generator for Irish websites. None of it has any relevance to us.

Dangerously, people seem to want to fight these issues out here. It's weird.

Dyr

It's almost like multiculturalism results in a patchwork of groups at each others throats that can be exploited by those who want to undermine Western civilisation

Who would have guessed that balkanisation was a bad idea? 🤔

EOQRTL

No it is not a good thing. You see it creeping in here though more and more cheer lead by American posters who are either on the hard left or the hard right.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435954#Comment_119435954

What 'real impact'?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257060/is-the-importation-from-america-of-identity-politics-a-good-thing

Have a trip through Irish politics at least from the civil war onwards and try and apply the new terms to it…. the popularism of Mick Colins - listen to Dan Breen talking about him, the devotion to de Valera, the blue shirts, the haugheyites. We have our own version of pretty much everything.

But it does not catch on in countries like Ireland or Switzerland because they both have sovereign peoples. And voters in such countries have a nasty habit of asking uncomfortable questions that cannot be answered by the peddlers of this nonsense.

Notmything

Have we not always had a form of identity politics here?

Republican v Unionist v Free Stater.

We still identify parties based on whether they were pro or anti treaty, FG still get labelled as blue shirts.

If anything we are making political identity even tighter, "landlord party", "scroungers party" etc. Or like in the US whether pro/anti abortion, divorce, equal rights, gay marriage.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436169#Comment_119436169

This isn't "the workplace", though, is it? It's a couple of isolated items.

I have to visit clients in many different companies in this country, the UK and in Europe and I have yet to see any overt evidence of the importation of American ID politics, even in some of the US multis. My wife works in a job were she has to travel an interview people for her line of work and hasn't seen the nonsense some on here bang on and on about on a daily basis. We haven't even seen an email with pronouns.

In short, the sky isn't falling in, so we can all calm the fuck down.

I'm far more likely to encounter other American imports, like their annoying business terms mouthed by people who are masking their own incompetence and trying to make themselves sound more knowledgeable about something than they actually are. But that's been the case since the 90's.

Thelonious Monk

I think it's the middle aged outraged anti wokesters on this site that bang on about this stuff more than anyone else. I have no idea what it is but I would imagine it's something to do with pronouns or whatever. You can easily live your life and ignore this stuff, doesn't affect me in the slightest.

It doesn't affect your life yet. The hope is that by standing against this crap now, it won't become firmly established as it has in the US. That's the hope, although I suspect it's a hope doomed to failure because of the desire by so many to dismiss the concerns involved.

This kind of stuff is present in education, especially that of third level/Adult education. It's extremely common in literature/research papers relating to Human resources in companies. It's something that is spreading in influence and scope.

So.. it might not affect you directly, but it probably will affect your children, nieces/nephews, or whatever comes after you.

donaghs

I thought RTE’s Black History month was another example of this. It did tailor some material for Irish examples at least (e.g. Christine Buckley, and Fredrick Douglas’s visit to Ireland), but basically seemed to be a copy and paste of the US version.

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2021/1001/1250108-what-is-black-history-month-a-new-rte-series-delves-in/

The idea of all dark skinned people of African origin in America being “one people” was originally created by a racist slavocracy. A complex legacy (to say the least) remains today.

But to lump all dark skinned African origin people who’ve arrived in Ireland at any time as a “black community”, does seem a bit presumptive, and just a tad racist.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438613#Comment_119438613

Or to have a Black history month when Eastern Europeans are our largest group of immigrants. Why not a Polish month? A Lithuanian month? etc. There are more white foreigners in Ireland than Black foreigners... but it's vital that we have a Black history month.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438725#Comment_119438725

Someone lobbied RTE for it somewhere. You should lobby them for a Polish History Month. Be the change

RobbieTheRobber

Some of these posters will sometimes admit like above posts that there are more European immigrants here yet they will then later lament how if you look around any Irish town you can see the demographic shift, referring to black people.

The very same posters will often post how black people are inherently violent and mysogonistic and their culture is one of drugs and violence.

And they wonder why we need black history.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439713#Comment_119439713

It's like, I don't know why you need Reeling in the Years either, but you can watch Reeling in the Years to find out: usually a lot of mildly to bloody interesting stuff.

For the same reason viewers flummoxed or furrowed as to why they are seeing a broadcast for Black History Month might take the opportunity to watch it and find out why it's a whole month and why Sharks only get 1 week on Discovery.

Cue someone complaining the next time WW2 documentaries are in season

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439713#Comment_119439713

Don’t see anyone on this thread making racist tinged remarks about demographic changes. Maybe you’re projecting something else onto this discussion?

whats your basic point? That a “Black History month” is needed, because some people are racists? I don’t get it. Better to tackle the racism and the racists, rather than (with good intentions), label all dark skinned people from every African country, or having some ancient African connection as being part of a collective group.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439781#Comment_119439781

When one gets bumped into on the street get pickpocketed and they go running off with it, dare say most people would not have the facilities to describe their appearances without mentioning they were black if they were. Pull on that thread for a while and you'll conclude that yes, for all your good intentions, they are part of a collective group.

It isn't a good thing, and I was on here talking about it something like eight years ago.

Apart from everything else, it reduces people to predictable sponges who soak up whatever their particular "identify" believes in. It's sad enough when you see people base their views on the world around their politics without adding all these extra groups they feel the need to conform to.

There are posters on this site I know the exact opinion of on every topic under the sun. Stuff that's never even been talked about. At least it's completely impossible to guage my view on a topic just because you know a few of my other views.

is_that_so

Not seeing this at all and I come in contact with a very wide range of age groups. It certainly has leaked into Irish social media and online activism but that's a tiny group of people that the vast majority of us will never meet.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440010#Comment_119440010

My post, and I also think the other poster, weren't complaining about Black history month. It was an example of the Identity politics manifesting here. I honestly couldn't care less if there's a Black history month.. I can ignore it quite easily. However, the question as to why it happens, considering both our own history and our demographics brings up the question of why... and rather than get an answer to the why, you get a deflection towards racism or some other nonsense.

The attitude is that we should ignore all of this. Nothing to see here. It doesn't affect you. But that's how the PC movement became so established in the US.. people ignored it, until it did become established and affected them directly. That's why we should be asking why... and not accepting the deflections/dismissals.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440041#Comment_119440041

In the main, such commemorations or celebrations draw attention to a particular theme. That example covers equality and race so will very obviously be focussed on in the media, even if it seems somewhat absurd in our context. There are many a National/International Day/Week of X that just pass us by with the same level of importance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440061#Comment_119440061

In the main, such commemorations or celebrations draw attention to a particular theme. That example covers equality and race so will very obviously be focussed on in the media, even if it seems somewhat absurd in our context.

And that context is imported and encouraged to be accepted within our own society and culture. We have no history of slavery. No history of racial discrimination against Black people. No history of racial superiority. It makes sense to have such remembrances in countries with a history of such things, but it makes no sense to do so in Ireland.. unless the agenda is to reinforce the status of victimhood for that ethnic group. As the other poster said, Black people are held as a collective group, irrespective of their individual histories, with the agenda being applied to them all.. the push of the Black history month (not the month itself but the message attached to it), encourages an idea of white guilt, that we are all responsible based on our own ethnicity for what happened in other countries by peoples very different to ourselves.

And that's why such things should be questioned. It's a propaganda drive, and propaganda has a long history of gradually changing the minds of people, of establishing itself within the accepted truths of culture, and if left unquestioned, it will become established here.

It's not about equality. If it was about equality, the emphasis would be on everyone coming here to become Irish, and accepted as Irish. No different from the native group. No differences based along ethnic lines. Multiculturalism, and the mechanisms of such propaganda, aim to reinforce divisions so that minorities are elevated, and held distinctly different from the others. And that's what we've gotten from American identity politics, and it's worked so well for them..

Overheal

And why was it lobbied and accepted? You deflected away from the point.

Because I have no answer for you, just encouraging you to further seek it out. I wasn't involved in lobbying RTE.

The attitude is that we should ignore all of this. Nothing to see here. It doesn't affect you. But that's how the PC movement became so established in the US.. people ignored it, until it did become established and affected them directly. That's why we should be asking why... and not accepting the deflections/dismissals.

Yeah can't even put f@**ts N***rs or R**rds on blast in polite conversation anymore, it's awful Joe.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441318#Comment_119441318

That’s part of being PC, not using offensive language. And is generally accepted as a good thing.

but you’re deliberately ignoring the other parts, and slandering anyone who questions PC attitudes as being racists/homophobes.

being “politically correct” also has a meaning relating to adhering firmly to a party line. The classic example being the necessity of party loyalty above personal opinions in communists groups. Short summary in here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

And that’s part of the dangers of identity politics. Dogmas which have to be adhered to, this time by all society. The dogmas may change but they must be accepted and cannot be questioned.

the attitude and influence of the Stonewall charity in the Uk to trans issues is a good example of this

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity

one of the founders Mathew Parris who walked away from it is just too moderate in his opinions for them now.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441724#Comment_119441724

So you're saying, PC language disadvantages the group who identify as non-PC?

Well, that would be very non-PC, as told by Wikipedia, except the non-PC crowd seems face-first in demanding to do away with political correctness, so as the first in line, they're the first to complain?

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441761#Comment_119441761

No, clearly no one said that.

I don’t know of a “non-pc crowd” who want to do away with it, apart from one or two comedians doing routines, and so on.

Instead like most people, I don’t subscribe to “us and them” opinions on everything, but take a nuanced view that “political correctness” in all its forms has pros and cons.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441922#Comment_119441922

I think people online overblow the issue. I can't imagine most people myself included stopping an otherwise flowing conversation in public, in person, with friends acquaintances or colleagues to comment on every small 'non-PC' lingual infraction. Most people will let loose an off color joke or a retarded or two. On the internet it's a bit different, the far broader audience, the need for civility & audience inclusiveness, mired in the ability to exhaustively pick apart all things said at any length or scale.

AyeGer

I generally ignore the topic online these days and never encounter it in my day to day life. So it doesn’t effect me.

First I came across of it recently was on 2FM yesterday where the presenters were referring to someone who goes by either they/them or she/her. And apparently they change that based on whether they are feeling more feminine or not.

That’s all great and everything but surely it’s a bit of an ask for the people she lives with, works with etc day to day.

Sunny Disposition

No, it is definitely not a good thing. And it might be getting worse.

'Debate' about trans people is an example. Because the whole culture wars sh!t thing is ongoing, some people who used to be fair minded now oppose any concessions for trans people, don't even believe transgenderism real. That's a direct consequence of this identity politics sh!te.

These social justice warrior types are alienating a lot of people and doing quite a bit of harm to the causes they espouse.

People in Ireland generally grow up with values of fairness being emphasised, and really don't need identity politics, we're a well educated mature country, all that horsesh!t won't help here, it's just fostering division with no benefit.

gormdubhgorm

The importation of many things from America are a bad thing. Their culture and mindsets are vastly different to the culture in Ireland. Yet some people from Ireland (by virtue of the internet) seem to think they are in America. The use of phrases such as 'Body Shaming' 'Hate Crime' right down to simple phrases such as 'Movies' by many Irish people. Even word filler's such as 'like' have long been borrowed from America. To the extent that among Irish youth it became the norm.

Is just symptomatic of how American culture is slowly enveloping Irish culture. And Irish culture gets taken over by the latest American fad, pushed by many in the media and social media. In five years time it will be something else that is the latest fad.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257060/is-the-importation-from-america-of-identity-politics-a-good-thing

How has it caused division?

Was there not always much division in American society?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439734#Comment_119439734

You are pretending there is consistency and equivalence among various groups and that any group can organise anything. There isn't the same equality. Consider how the media would cover a hypothetical "White Pride" parade? Racist, white supremacist, yada yada yada would be the terms used to describe it. It would probably be banned under "public safety" fears.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445548#Comment_119445548

Depends on your laws. And your goals. And whether the public agrees you have standing on either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/17/the-day-30000-white-supremacists-in-kkk-robes-marched-in-the-nations-capital/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

Clearly, white groups CAN do these things, the reasons why they don't seems clear though, aside from the lack of being oppressed, what they do in these rallies is often push an agenda to be the oppressor.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445443#Comment_119445443

In the past, Democrats and Republicans would co-operate much more. There are voting records of Congress that prove that they would often support each other's proposals. Nowadays everything is hyper partisan, and everything is challenged and fought over to a degree unheard of previously. I would admit Trump did make things worse in this regard by refusing to accept that he lost. But on the other hand the Dems did something similar with all that Russia nonsense, albeit Clinton did concede defeat officially on the night.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444870#Comment_119444870

"I support the current thing!"

Overheal

In the past, Democrats and Republicans would co-operate much more. There are voting records of Congress that prove that they would often support each other's proposals.

Bit outdated of a take now

https://www.vox.com/2022/2/15/22927345/congress-bipartisan-bills-forced-arbitration-postal-reform

Even the insulin price cap had 7 GOP Senators on it - not enough to stop the block, but still some bipartisanship there too. Also the vote on the Infrastructure Reinvestment and Jobs Act was 69-30 in a 48-50-2 split Senate.