How best to organise for gas shortages

sandy2000

Ive looked in the threads but not seen anything specific on this so thought Id ask and see if anyone has any ideas.

If, worst case scenario with Russia, there's big limits on gas supply ahead, what are options for keeping the lights and heat on?

For example, we have solar PV (3.8kw array), a small battery, and gas heating.

We could run the immersion for heating but that's much more expensive even at current rates. An eddi might be an option but hard to see how the upfront cost would pay for itself even at increased rates. We could run the immersion at night but its on a dumb switch so has to be done manually. Maybe a Climote smart immersion if it could be configured to work like an eddi?

Just seems like there should be a smart way inm a gas crisis to use the solar PV to help i that Im not really seeing.

Gant21

There will be no issue with gas supply. No need to panic.

the_amazing_raisin

Unfortunately geography is your enemy here, our nothern latitudes mean there's a big drop in PV output during winter, which is right when you need more energy

I guess it's worth saying that we still get 30% of our gas from the Corrib field, so it's not like there will be no gas available.

However the likely effect will be a sharp increase in gas & electricity prices, making today's prices look cheap

There will probably be some govenment intervention, but a lot of the current thinking is around restricting industrial output. There might also be another work from home order to cut down on office heating, although from what I've seen offices seem to be heated anyway even when empty 🙄

In terms of what you can do, well first thing I'd look at is efficiency. Are you willing to wear a sweater around the house and cut down on heating? Can you heat a few rooms rather than the whole house? Can you convince the rest of your family to have shorter showers (I have so far failed to convince my wife that she doesn't need to wash her hair for 15 mins)?

If you have a day/night meter (or can get one) then you could use cheaper night rates to top off the battery in winter when you don't have enough solar. You can also set your dishwasher and washing machine to switch on at night to lower the cost there

It's also worth looking at how you cook meals, perhaps invest in a slow cooker or batch cook meals in the oven to save energy? You can also do the cooking overnight to avail of night rates but I'm personally worried about fire hazards. Also waking up to the smell of stew is not always the best wakup call

For bigger investments, there's the usual suspects like improving insulation and airtightness to lower your energy usage. You could get some electric heaters or a heat pump to lower your gas usage. Some heat pumps can also be used alongside gas boilers, so you aren't tied to a single fuel source

I feel like at this stage an Eddi mightn't be much use since you'll probably be using all your solar PV to charge your battery and meet the house demands

If possible, you could look at more panels or a bigger battery to maximise your generation capacity?

shesty

We do not take gas from Russia.

https://www.gasnetworks.ie/corporate/company/our-network/pipeline-map/

What you want to watch is what the UK are saying. Because we are essentially hanging off the end of their system.

If gas is rationed here, the UK will have a much bigger problem. The question is what are the arrangements in place between us and them to prioritise gas flowing to us, over their population.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4Pbbp5v5AhUHAsAKHTZmAlcQFnoECBIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fec.europa.eu%2Fenergy%2Fsites%2Fener%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments%2Fnpap_ireland_2018_.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1kiYzejbb6jPZEHWp_VXwZ

This is the Security of Supply policy for gas up to 2022, for the UK and Ireland - I can't see a link to the site, but it links direct to the pdf.

I suspect it has been revised somewhat in recent months, but the basic theory will remain the same - to keep the gas flowing, basically. Not least because our electricity infrastructure also relies heavily on gas.

I did see an article in passing this week about plans to up the grants for solar panels and the like, but we shall see. The cost is where it will hit us hardest I suspect.

unkel

Up to about a year or two ago I was very sceptical about immersion diverters. Most people installing them had small PV setups (up to about 4kwp) and gas was cheap at about 4c / kWh incl. VAT. So the savings of immersion diverter were less than the cost of having the diverter installed. So it was cheaper to not have a diverter and just send the excess production to the grid for free

Things have changed though with the current energy crisis (that won't go away, not for many years to come) that sent energy prices up by 100-200% and people (myself included) now installing much larger PV arrays than previously imagined. And installing immersion and electric car diverters

Great post by @the_amazing_raisin above. First do the low hanging fruit like insulation and using less where you can. Then install as much PV as your home allows - particularly if you can do it DIY and get the parts at good prices. The payback time will be quick. It looks like that will be the case even without any battery, immersion or EV diversion. Because of very generous FIT (feed in tariff that you get paid for producing more than you use and sending it back to the grid) being implemented

There is very little chance that the government will actually throttle the gas supply to your home (as quite likely will be the case in the likes of Germany, totally depending on Russian gas and oil), but that won't stop the gas and electricity prices going further up - possible by another 100-200% (peak rates) in the next year or two

sandy2000

All very helpful! We have the insulation and all that done so we're not in a bad place but these are still great tips. Are there any other immersion diverters out there to consider other than the eddi?

DC999

Some good stuff here and something on a lot of peoples minds. Unfortunately we each can only control / find ways to reduce parts - amount of gas, oil and electricity we use per house. Which deffo helps a lot of course.

But none of us can control the inflation on everything we buy. Due to the increased cost to 'make' (including food) and ship everything using that energy.

Not being fatalistic here. Those with solar (or even a battery on it's own without solar now likely being a runner) are able to manage the 1st parts (direct energy bills). Which is great and will help a lot. And we can buy less too of course where we can.

It's deffo a worry for sure. But we can each do a fair bit ourselves. Good thread - thanks for raising and is gonna run for some time.

DeirdreMalone

It was all very helpful! 

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398798#Comment_119398798

There are others and they cost roughly the same. The eddi has lots of benefits though, mainly that it is part of the myenergi family of products (and just clamps) that can talk to each other very easily. And their prices aren't outrageous. Lots of smarts going on to future proof your setup and be able to control it with home automation too.

the_amazing_raisin

Yeah I think all the diverters come in roughly the same price. Somehow the free market failed and competing products didn't result in lower prices 😏

If you're handy with electronics and programming you can make your own with some relays and something like a Raspberry pi

I suppose another trick you could do with the Eddi would be to use the relay board to trigger some electric heaters. I think heating water has some limited use of you're showering in the morning, water might lose a lot of its heat by then

If you can trigger some space heaters then that seems more useful for winter, or shower in the evening instead, whichever suits you better

Another trick you can do is use a couple of crypto miners as diverters, so you can make some of that sweet virtual money with your hard won solar power.

You can even use the miners to heat your home since they generate heat. I know of one or two boardsies who are doing that already

curioustony

The most promising reason to divert excess I've seen is to turn calcium hydroxide into calcium oxide. In winter you can reverse the process (just add water :-) ) releasing heat. Sadly it's a long way off. Just research papers so far.

Still that was also the case for R290 heat pumps, and they are here now.

unkel

You've just given me an idea @the_amazing_raisin 😂

I heated my house entirely with crypto rigs last winter. More expensive than heating with gas, but of course it is profitable at the same time.

And to address your point about showering in the morning - most modern hot water storage cylinders are very well isolated, so the water would still be hot from it heating up the previous day. Mine is rated for just losing 1C per 24h. You could indeed use the second AC output of a diverter like an eddi to power a storage heater, but it's usually more useful to just get the hot water, which in itself, even if you don't use it, is a slow-release room storage heater in its own right.

bb12

my house is all electric with oil heating and also a multifuel stove. there are solar panels which just heat the water. lots of hot water in summer, luke warm in winter.

even though i don't have gas, i'm also wary that there may be rolling blackouts this winter, so i've stocked up on portable gas cookers, camping style, and gas canisters so that i can at least cook a meal. i've also gone old school and besides lots of candles and tea lights, i invested in some oil lanterns and lamp oil as they give a better light than candles. i also have led lanterns but batteries eventually run flat and i think the lamp oil is more cost effective...also bought a kerosene/oil cooker...more out of curiosity when i saw it than anything else...apparently these are used widely in asia and africa for cooking...it's basically like an oil lantern than you can cook off...i tested it and it's a nifty little thing...as far heating i guess i can fall back on the stove which also heats the rads but i don't know how that works if no electricity with the water pump...i've an open vented water system so i think if the power is out and the stove is on, the pressure makes it way to the overflow tank.

maybe if you're in an all gas house it's worth investing in a superser and have a spare cylinder on hand for any shortages of outages or some plug in electric rads...either way everyone is gonna get burnt with the high costs this winter

TerraSolis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256485/how-best-to-organise-for-gas-shortages

If you have a condensing boiler for the heating, drop the flow temperature (or tune the weather compensation if you have it.) Most condesning boilers are set up with flow temperatures much too high for them to fully condense, so you can gain about 10/15% efficiency just by lowering it. Rads won't run as hot but you can still get the building just as warm in most cases.

sandy2000

Thanks Terrasolis, we do have one so that's a great tip.

If anyone has any recommendations on eddi installers, do feel free to PM!

unkel

Any electrician can install an eddi, it's very simple. A lot of people do it DIY.

Problem is that for love nor money could you buy an eddi now. There are production problems with the manufacturer in the UK, myenergi. And all wholesalers have run out of old stock at this stage.

Shauna677

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407649#Comment_119407649

Sorry but what is an eddi?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407692#Comment_119407692

It's an immersion diverter. So if your solar PV produces more than you are using, the excess can be sent via the immersion diverter to heat your hot water cylinder.

Paul Kiernan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407701#Comment_119407701

But if there are good FIT's is it not simpler and cheaper to just let the excess go back to the grid?

unkel

Yes indeed. But we don't know yet how good the FIT is and if you are forced onto a smart meter plan with terrible rates. We're all waiting and seeing for now...

bullit_dodger

Installing individual radiator controls such as the Tado

Everyone's comfort zone (tado.com)

Is a good way to cut down gas usage. Even the cheapie analogue ones. The main problem with a lot of older houses, is that they install the (one) thermostat in say the hallway, so you have to heat the hallway before the thermostat cuts off. The hallway is a terrible place for a thermostat/relay. Warm air rises up the stairs so in order for it to work you usually have to heat a lot of the house, top down. Granted the thermostat usually just controls the pump aspect of thing, but still, it's not efficient, primarily as you have to heat the hallway where nobody is usually.

Better that you have a thermostat in each and every room and control the temp of each room. I like those Tado as they control the water flow as it approaches the desired temp, slowing down the amount of hot water entering the rads as it gets closer to the temp rather than going "full bore" and busting through the desired temp level.

Plus you can set the temps for each room. Living room might be 19-20C and then a bedroom cooler etc .... something that you cant really do with a single thermostat.

Ubbquittious

Definitely have a few yellow dhrums of gas for the winter, plenty wood/turf if you have a means of burning it. Now is the time to stock up when it's nice and sunny and nobody is thinking about cold weather. If you don't have a hybrid inverter it would be handy to have a small charge controller and couple of car batteries and inverter so at least you won't be completely without power if there are prolonged blackouts

guyfo

I see a few comments along the lines of it'll be grand, we don't fet our gas from Russia.

This is true, we don't get our gas from Russia, but everyone in Europe that does is now looking straight at our suppliers.

If your on a gas line, nothing you can do to ensure supply. A stove or solid fuel fireplace would be the best, if not only way to ensure heat that isn't reliant in some way on imported fossil fuels. Pity "progress" made most of us reliant on importing the energy to heat our homes....

Black_Knight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436519#Comment_119436519

Solar with a battery to run alternate heat sources (portable heaters) during cooler times is an option.

guyfo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437548#Comment_119437548

In Ireland during the winter?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437657#Comment_119437657

No, not really. Even with a very large 10kW array, you will be making just about 1kWh on the most miserable of days in winter (when you need heat the most). You can of course with a large battery charge up at night rate and use that for heating during the day. Cost wise that's similar to using gas or oil, but obviously much cleaner and greener as most of it will have come from wind energy

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436519#Comment_119436519

CAN other buyers get gas from Ireland? I mean there's no physical pipeline they could use and no LNG terminal to load onto tankers

Of course I imagine gas prices will still go up because they're somehow all magically linked

The government and CRU could respond by introducing a price cap on the Corrib field, or even (gasp) consider nationalising the company. As if that would ever happen

guyfo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437886#Comment_119437886

But that's the issue, right now there isn't the extra capacity in our grid to compensate for everyone going electric because of the price of oil and gas.

Germany have been able recommission their ligmite power plants, we have turf powered plants sitting there that can't now be used because the government sold off the infrastructure and the renewable sector isn't producing anywhere near enough to fill in the gaps.

If ye can, get a stove installed, oil and gas prices and shortages won't just affect heating bills, the backup option of sticking on the electric heater is just as dependent on them.

DC999

I'm hoping to be able to use an electric rad for the likes of late Sept, Oct... and same in March for our solar. Won't replace the gas heating but more to reduce the usage needed when it's not really cold. If I get a small rad that runs on something like 600watts it should be OK. Tried one oil rad I have yesterday and uses 1kw on lowest setting or 2kw on high. So that's no good to me.

But I'll deffo be watching it's not chewing power from the grid or costs more probably. I know others here have slick auotmation that checks if there is X spare watts and then turns on the smart plug for the rad. But that's not something I have any experience of yet. Might try to get it going as we head to autumn

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437985#Comment_119437985

Time is also a factor, the crunch time for the grid tends to be in the evening when everyone is cooking dinner and heating the house, whereas at night there's the opposite problem, too much available wind power and not enough consumption

fuse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438565#Comment_119438565

I was thinking the same. Looking at getting this so I can set it at 600w/900w/1.5kW to heat up the office. Main thing I need to verify is that it will start running when a smart plug is activated and doesn't need manual switching on.

Got Home Assistant up and running so should be able to configure some kind of logic to turn it on in the mornings when there's available power.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444271#Comment_119444271

Get a smart plug that knows how much power it is using, it will allow better automation

sandy2000

What price is that installation though. Been quoted 750 which seems steep given the unit is 550 from myenergi themselves. Unfortunately the DIY would be beyond me.

Maybe I should wait for the smart plugs givenergy are allegedly bringing out (my system runs all on theirs so far).

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444271#Comment_119444271

Try to get one rated for continuous output at the given wattage. I picked up a second second-hand oil radiator on adverts but unfortunately it uses a duty cycle and is seemly not designed not for continuous output. Makes it a little bit more difficult for managing surplus. The other oil radiator I have runs for hours at a given wattage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444762#Comment_119444762

€500 fitted all in should be the cost. Add in inflation and maybe 550.

750 is gouging! Price around

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437909#Comment_119437909

They're not getting gas from Ireland. During winter, we get 25% of our gas supply from the Corrib gas field, with the rest coming from the UK. The UK market is supplied by indigenous fields, pipelines to Norway and to mainland Europe. The European pipeline works both directions. Europe is supplied with gas from UK during the summer (to fill storage) and supplies the UK during the winter. There's going to be a shortage of gas across Europe this winter which will cause price increases.

I don't know if the output from the Corrib gas field can be increased, or if there is a way for the government to cap the gas price from it.

Hopefully we'll get a mild windy winter which will reduce heating demand and increase wind electricity, reducing the amount of gas we need to import and reduce the risk of rationing/power cuts.

unkel

A very easy way for the government to restrict gas use is to make electricity cheaper. These are 10 quid in Amazon. Even with current gas and electricity prices it costs about the same to heat your house during night rate hours with a few of these as it would be with gas

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warmlite-Adjustable-Thermostat-Protection-Refurbished/dp/B084NWCYZS/ref%3Dsr_1_3?crid=35NXCTUUT49PS&keywords=fan+heater&qid=1659970823&refinements=p_76%3A419158031&rnid=419157031&rps=1&sprefix=fan+heater%2Caps%2C58&sr=8-3

I used almost zero gas last winter, planning to do the same this winter. We need a lot more wind energy though.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444271#Comment_119444271

Sweet, do please tell us how you did that on https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058224611/solar-pv-monitoring-automation-thread when you suss it out. Or might be someone already doing it there.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444790#Comment_119444790

Crap, I bought 2 oil rads on Donedeal 2 weeks ago in the heatwave. I'll have to check them. 1 runs at 1kwh on lowest, I'd hoped to get something lower like 600w on lowest setting. So won't really work for me. But good to have as a backup just in case. Thought I was a genius buying them in a heatwave when everyone wanted a fan :)

garo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445693#Comment_119445693

Given that about 50% of Ireland's electricity comes from gas powered plants, that's not going to be much use. The gas turbine plants in IOreland have an efficiency of around 50-55% so every kWh you shift from gas to electricity means another kWh used to generate electricity. Might be better during windy preiods and not so good during calm wind periods.

Look at the fuel mix for the last month here: https://smartgriddashboard.com/#all/generation

Drumpot

If you are going to buy a portable heater what do you look out for in terms of electricity usage to run it?

Smart plugs basically connect to your Wi-Fi, but how exactly do you turn them on or off? Do you have to figure out your router login details?

Lastly, what exactly is the home assistant being mentioned and who can you contact to install it?

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573082#Comment_119573082

If you own the electric heaters already, get something that can monitor energy and see how much the heaters will use on each setting. Or look for watts or kilowatts (kw) in the manual if buying a new one. 1000w = 1 kilowatt / kw = 1 unit of electricity per hour.

I was testing a 400W heater the other day and it would be something like 80 quid a month to run it 24 x 7. 400W won't put out a lot of heat. Other heaters I have use up to 2kWh so that's 2 units per hour. Would cost a huge amount to keep them running.

I use these smart plugs and are simple to setup and us: TP-Link Tapo Smart Plug with Energy Monitoring, Works with Amazon Alexa (Echo and Echo Dot) and Google Home, Wi-Fi Smart Socket, Remote Control, Device Sharing, No Hub Required(Tapo P110) : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

Control them via an app on the phone and one above also tracks energy usage. So can see what watts each setting on the heater uses. So you only need 1 with the energy monitor (to see what power each device uses), and can then get the non energy ones for other devices. I use them on dishwasher and other devices. Turns a dumb device into a smart device and can get it to come on when you want. Can set a schedule on them or turn on / off by pressing the button on the side. They don't let you turn them off remotely when outside the house, only works on the WIFI in the house (as in can't turn the heater off when you're not home).

Home assistant is for automating + linking all the smart devics in your house. And many levels above where I am at the mo :) So if looking for a simple solution, the type of plugs above are perfect.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573380#Comment_119573380

All illegal.

olestoepoke

About three years ago we installed a 20kw boiler stove and heat hero, heats 10 rads and endless hot water when lit. I've an unlimited supply of logs and carpentry off cuts, might even buy contraband Turf.

Chancer20

We don't have gas to our house as we are very rural, but of course most of our electricity comes from gas powered stations, so I'm talking here about what happens if the power goes off.

Even solarPV owners with battery does not provide a back-up supply unless a change-over switch has been fitted. If, like me, you have no battery, solar doesn't provide any power in the event of a power outage.

We had already invested in a 2500W generator when we were building the house. It's not enough to power the whole house, but enough to keep the fridge and freezers topped up and the well pump powered. All we will do is manually plug these things in using extension cables as we need to. Not brilliant, but there is not much else we can do, nor would we want to. I refuse to invest another €2500 for a battery that might come in useful for the one or two outages we might get. We're also quite sure that, with our luck, the power will go out when the battery is dead anyway, so what's the point in such a huge outlay for such little return.

So its stocking up with firewood for the log burner, keep the laptops charged up and hunker down.

unkel

Anyone with an EV can connect a lowish power pure sine inverter (€100) to the 12V battery, or better, to the DC-DC converter. This will give many days of basic power to the house, just run an extension cord into your house and plug in fridge, internet router, TV, phone chargers, etc.

I actually have done this in the past in power cuts. I've a multitude of batteries, I even used my eBikes battery to power our airfryer at some stage. Mobile power FTW 😂

This can be done with an ICE car too, but the engine would need to be running. And if the car gets stolen like that (with the keys in it), you will not get any insurance payout

tabby aspreme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573554#Comment_119573554

What make and model stove is it, thanks

randombar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578001#Comment_119578001

Wondering about that with my 30KW Leaf. What mods do I need to do to the car to get the power from that into the battery backup connection that's currently connected to sofar.

Thinking when the 10kwh runs out from the sofar I could maybe plug the car in somehow?

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578602#Comment_119578602

There was a device to do just that but it's gone out of production

https://www.evsiphon.com/setec

MrMusician18

There won't be gas shortages in Ireland, the gas that goes to the Irish and UK markets cannot really be diverted to other markets - the UK continent pipes are going full bore at the moment, so there is no capacity to export more from this supply source.

The issue for the UK and Ireland is a market driven one. The problem we will have is that gas is too expensive for householders, not that it will not be available.

The issue with the electric market and generation is a fundamental issues with the way we have set up our generation. We have closed fossil fuel plants for intermittent renewables without providing sufficient fossil backup for them as well as allowing essentially unrestricted development of massive electricity consumers. This would be happening this winter regardless of gas shortages or wars. Those excuses are a smokescreen.

unkel

Most lead acid batteries can provide about 80A continuously, so about 1000W. My own sine wave inverter is 600W to be on the safe side. I had it connected directly to the 12V battery with a 80A fuse iirc. The car needs to be "on" though so your DC-DC converter can keep providing your 12V battery with juice from the main high voltage battery

And to give you an idea, with your 30kWh Leaf, you could power your fridge, TV, phone chargers and internet router for about a week.