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Proposed club world cup

  • 23-07-2022 5:45pm
    Registered Users Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭Red Silurian

    The proposed format is 4 pools of 4, 7 clubs from super rugby, 1 from Japan and 8 from champions cup, the tournament is set to replace the champions cup knockout stages in 2025 and take place every 4 years thereafter in a predetermined location

    I wonder what nation is behind this one



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    Does it matter? Advancement and expansion of the global game is good thing surely? Bar the immigration lobby who think it takes away from opportunity of domestic players?

  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    The game has to evolve. If that requires missing one European Cup every 4 years then so be it. It is the top global teams but surely there is scope with th evolution that other counties might get involved at a later stage. If you’re looking for inclusion you shouldn’t be writing off innovation and change even if that is wrong type of change. All change is good if it leads to evolution

  • Not all evolution is progress, some evolutionary branches are dead-ends. I'd happily argue over a pint that the old European format was better than the dogs-dinner they spunked out as the Champions Cup.

    I'm not necessary against this comp but I don't see much merit to it either. it's weirdly weighted too, imo, with 3 leagues getting 8 spots 1 league getting 7 spots.

    If we want to rip up the calendar to the promote the game, how about we curtail the Champions Cup one season in four to play a European Championship in October/November with sides like Georgia, Romania, Spain etc in the cycle that alternates with the RWC. That way there'd be no disruption to the 6 nations and we'd be giving meaningful European competition to non-6 Nations sides.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    i dont think the way the champions cup has ended up has meant its worse than the way the Heineken Cup was formatted. the proposals are weighted more in favour of the aussies and kiwis but curtailing the champions cup to play a european championship isnt the answer and would never get go ahead from the clubs in england, france who are main employers of these countries players...

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  • I know it wouldn't and because the game has been sold to a handful of men in the UK and France any amount of bad ideas will be promoted by them.

    But if we wanted to truly grow the game, a European Championship on a 4 year cycle would be better than a closed shop of 16 elite clubs.

  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    The reason that doesn’t happen as you say is money. If the big wigs think it’ll spin more money they’ll go for it. Im all for the lower tier nations getting teams in but look at Italy in the 6 nations. The game hasn’t really blossomed there! I do believe their inclusion however would be a good thing and that it would take off in those countries

  • I don't follow u20's closely but i get the impression Italy are now doing better than both Wales and Scotland at u20's? At some point that will feed into their senior side. Incidentally to this topic, Georgia are apparently trying to get a club side into the URC, no idea how it would work but I'd rather see that then the elite clubs siloed off in an exclusive club comp.

    We are 30 years into pro rugby and if anything, the game might be in worse health in Wales and Scotland than it has been for years.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭Red Silurian

    I suppose the main problem I'd have is that it's not really a "World" cup in the sense that it's quite a closed shop, also a 4 team group stage would add to player commitments... With the proposed format on this year's results you would have 4 of the 5 NZ sides, 3 of the 5 Australian sides, one Japanese side, 2 French, 3 English and 3 Irish sides which is a huge financial imbalance also so the T14 and EP are unlikely to buy in to it either

    The most fair way of doing it, I think, is to have group stages involving the winners of every club competition in the world, minus the champions cup winners and super rugby winners. Those teams would face off in semi finals against the 2 winners of those group stages

    In this years format it would be

    Semi finals - La ROGelle* and Crusaders

    Group stages, Rugby NY, Wild Knights, winners of other club competitions etc etc

    This way, every club in the world would have a shot at participation, player welfare would be better protected as only 2 extra games, could nearly do it every non-lions and non-world-cup year

    *Sorry, couldn't help it

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭Red Silurian

    If Georgia are willing to pay for their participation in the URC and support their clubs so their players aren't being poached by French teams the whole time I'd personally welcome them with open arms

    But let's save that discussion for the URC thread yeah!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    I wouldnt say Italy are doing better than Wales at 20s. They are doing better than Scots though. Georgia need more assistance but a club side into URC isnt going to work. Georgians are primarily employed by french clubs. the money isnt going to be there to run a pro team in URC.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    Georgians wouldnt be able to afford entry on their own and it would need to be world rugby assisted if it was to happen. It wont.

    The french teams wouldnt be poaching their players but the French have always done most for the rest of europe in developing rugby with creating FIRA, sending teams to play these countries at all levels...

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus

    Ital U20s did the double over England in the Six Nations and the summer series. Whether it's a sea change or just a very talented U20s team, Italy will improve when those boys start breaking through to the senior team.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow

    The Italian union have slightly moved away from the centralised academy structure implemented by Stephen Aboud, which has at the very least contributed to their success at u20 level. Seems like a step in the wrong direction to me, but we shall have to see.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,173 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets

    How could this possibly work in the schedule? The WC works because every team is on an equal footing in terms of preparation. This wouldn't be the case here surely?

    Would much rather a push towards a proper Euro Club league,. That's the future for growing the game.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    There isnt going to be a pan european club league. french certainly wont give up bouclier de brennus

  • World Rugby already underwrite Georgian clubs in the new comp from last year, Rugby Super Cup, afaik. Teams from Israel, Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and the Netherlands. I'm sure a deal could be done to swap one of the Georgian sides into the URC.

    (Or, as I've seen argued elsewhere, the Super Cup could be tied to the URC as its second tier, which strikes me as interesting but unrealistic)

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    Its unrealistic because of the returns. Georgians arent going to be presenting much in terms of potential income for the unions in URC. Same with their national side. How likely are many of the top georgians going to leave top 14 sides for this home side for considerably less wages especially as its not like argentinians with super rugby who had rugby championship income to tie into.

    Underwriting a georgian side for 6/7 games in super cup completely different to expense needed to run a side in URC with close to 20 games a season etc

    A super cup tying into URC is unrealistic because no existing side would survive without top flight income if they did happen to be relegated

  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    Would also be a closed shop and the English French and Welsh wouldn’t go for it

  • If nothing else, they'd present the returns from another home game and subsequent tv revenue etc but it really depends on what world rugby or the Georgian Union can bring to it. Afaik, there's talks on-going between the parties atm.

    Conversely, with Wales threatening to cut one or even two teams, we might actually need to find extra teams from somewhere, an extra Italian side or an extra SA side are more obvious choices than a Georgian side but who knows how the Unions will see it. For example, SA have a history in Super rugby of being hard to deal with, do the unions up here really want to be dependent on them etc. It would be a lot cheaper to finance a team in Georgia than it would be for World rugby to finance a Welsh side.

    If Wales do cut 2 teams, i can easily see a spot being found for Georgia, especially if world rugby underwrite them.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    They can afford it if they have a big enough home ground and build a following domestically. Maybe the TV money isn’t there but I can see scope for growing the game if they had international element to the game in their country.

    As to the miscreant saying that domestic growth isn’t possible with French clubs poaching players the reverse is true. Those players go abroad play to a much higher level and bring that professional approach back with them when they retire. To say this stifles growth is cretinism of the highest kind and completely false.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,173 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets

    Would rather a Spanish and Portuguese team . Closer geographically, they play attractive rugby and much greater potential tv market.

  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    Why does it strike you as unrealistic. Some of those markets present huge to income potential if their teams get promoted and the game grows. For the domestic unions to accept ringfencing the league as they currently do and not put their money where their mouths are is cretinism. If they are such great clubs relegation should not be a fear for them. Travel opportunities exist for fans and if their home support stays with them they can pay their players wages.

  • Absolutely agree, the Portuguese club side was pretty impressive in the inaugural Super Cup, ran the eventually winners (a Georgian side, incidentally) close in the final. Spanish rugby is in disarray atm over the RWC banning but yeah, I'd have no issue with a URC conference including those sides with some crossover to our 'A' sides or something.

    if Munster A were playing a Georgian/Portuguese or Spanish side I'd definitely check it out, albeit I know i'm in the minority on it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    How much tv income would they actually bring. An extra italian side isnt going to happen and would make things in Italy less competitive. there is already issues of competitiveness with 2 sides how is diluting things any more going to improve things? Maybe in 5-10 years if the two existing sides have consistently been at/near top of URC and have been properly competitive. If Wales were to cut a side we arent going to get near replacing that income with a side from Georgia or anywhere else.

    South Africa may be hard to deal with but theyre guarantee to bring lot more income/potential than adding a Georgian side for the considerable future.

  • It strikes me as unrealistic because the professional game is dying on its feet in Wales and Scotland, they'll never risk their sides going down to a league where the standard is poorer.

    A side conference is probably more workable but a team like Leinster would put 100 (probably 100+) points on any club from the Rugby Super Cup, arguably it might be dangerous for them to play each other.

  • They'd bring the extra income of games being televised here, I mean.

    If we lose 2 sides from the URC we absolutely do have to replace them from somewhere, imo. That's a lot of revenue lost in ticket sales and televised matches.

    I'll be frank and say I neither like or trust SA rugby so i'd rather we didn't rely on them too much.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond

    Look at attendances of many Georgian games. it isnt enough to support teams playing against our provinces etc across a full season. French sides dont really poach their players anyway and their best players are not going to stay in Georgia for much much lower salaries simply to play for a georgian side.

  • They'd probably use it as a shop window to get better paying gigs elsewhere tbh, with a handful of players who are too old for France returning for a pay-day at home.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa

    TheWelsh are pining for a British League and put nothing into the URC. We should look at expansion purely from the point of view that they might jump ship one day. I know it’s a balancing act between being good partners and honouring agreements but the growth potential is there if other countries are brought in.

    As for the Scots I think their sides loved playing in South Africa this year. The whole touring thing suits them well. Yes the risk of relegation poses existential risks to their clubs but most of their wages are paid from gates receipts. The loss of income could be offset by growth of the game in other nations and increased revenue from their TV deals.

    If Spain were promoted or even Portugal or the Netherlands there would be substantial increase in revenue.

    As for the gap between the standards of teams and putting 100 points on teams. I agree there is a gap but such is the price of promotion for those countries. I can’t imagine they would turn down the opportunity to compete and expand because they were to undergo a few drubbings. The standard should be set and they need to grow the grass roots which will be possible when kids see their countries’ players playing pro rugby on tv and in stadiums.