EU seeks to cut gas use by 15% from August To March

JL555

Hi all

I don't really post here too often, but I am startled at the news today that the EU is aiming to cut Gas use by 15% from August 2022 March 2023. This could also become legally binding if Russia decides to cut off supply to Europe completely.

Given that Ireland has no strategic gas reserve in place and that over 50% of our electricity is generated by natural gas, we could be looking at energy supply issues in winter.

My question is: Has then EU cut off its nose despite its face regarding our current Gas security?

ps, apologies if this discussion is in the wrong place or has already been started, I could not find it.

KildareP

Our plan is essentially the same as the rest of Europe - we've fired Moneypoint back up with coal (has been providing 10%+ of our energy usage for several weeks now) and no doubt Tarbert is on standby with heavy fuel oil to be fired up as well if needs be. Some of the gas turbine plants can be fired on light oil and diesel at reduced output and increased maintenance windows.

Other than that, hope for a mild winter with a constant heavy wind!

Hotblack Desiato

But not windy enough to make the turbines trip out... 🙄

We can thank the Green Party for this. Ireland really should have built an LNG terminal well before now.

Sam Russell

The Green Party were not in power 'well before now'.

Anyway, the Green Party do not build LNG terminals, that is the function of energy companies who design them and apply for the appropriate licences and if successful, build them.

Likewise, the Green Party do not order people to drive diesel cars, nor to build and operate Data Centres. They are not campaigning for the 'national' herd to be culled, contrary to the farmers lobbyists.

They are part of a Gov who agreed a programme for Government - jointly with two other, larger, political parties.

Hotblack Desiato

🙄

2004 1.4 petrol low emission car = €385 tax

Diseaselgate recent model big German bus = €120 a year

It's subsidising pollution. Diesel particulates directly cause illness and death. This is the second government they've been in since they introduced this and it still hasn't been changed.

And we all know why the Shannon LNG proposal went nowhere.

fly_agaric

Seems to me it is all very weird and up in the air (like almost everything?!), especially throwing Brexit and the not so stellar EU-UK relations into the mix.

Any problems will all be on us + our governments though - not the EU. We have no gas storage. We have no gas connections to the rest of the EU. All our energy connections are mediated through the UK....the Govt. have done nothing to connect electricity grid or gas pipelines to the rest of the EU since Brexit (referendum) which was, checks, 6 years ago now.

No urgency shown from them on that at all. I think the long talked about (electricity) connector to France is still about 5 years off so may be delivered 1 decade post Brexit (I did not google and check this...so possibly an expert reading will correct). Just to explain my thinking - afaik we generate a lot of electricity here with gas when the wind isn't blowing...having that connection up and running would have been an additional redundancy, independent of either reliable gas supply or electricity connection to UK.

As mentioned above who/whatever you want to blame for it (nimbyism, the Green party, a lack of govt. urgency), we have no ability to import LNG either. x fingers weather is good this winter or Putin keeps those gas taps open and whoever succeeds Boris Johnson smiles benevolently on Ireland/does not provoke an almighty row with the EU.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373276#Comment_119373276

The Greens are finished either way. They aren't going without share of the blame for what's coming. They won't be the only ones. All Green parties around Europe are going to get a lot of grief from the public.

And it's not undeserved.

Environmentalists won't be the only ones.

Sam Russell

One would have thought that the way the various climate emergencies are going around the world that their support would climb as more of the electorate get behind saving the planet.

Just another case of the short-sightedness of most people who cannot see the disaster coming down on them. If they think they are alright, then everything is alright.

bad2thebone

The green party have destroyed habitat's with their wind power.

All the birds and foxes etc are depleted from part's of West Clare, chopping up birds, the noise off those things are scaring bats too. Messing up with whales and dolphins sonars.

Even a Clare senator was not gone on wind turbines near her place, I think she may be in the green party.

The landfill that's used up after dumping those propellers is another issue.

The amount of time it takes to break down is a long, long time.

Sam Russell

@bad2thebone Could you support your ideas with some facts.

I do not think it is the Green Party that are doing all that. I doubt the wind turbines are theirs.

I think people's welfare should factor in first, as well as wildlife .

Perhaps you might consider all those people that die from emphysema from the extensive use of smokey coal. Or those that die from the pollution from motor vehicle spitting out nitrous oxide and particulates - these cause cancer in those effected.

You might provide references to support the idea that The Green Party own any wind turbines. Plus references to support the idea that foxes, bats and birds that are effected, or whales and dolphins are effected.

I would like to hear more specifics about a Senator (who might be a member of the Green Party) who is 'not gone on wind turbines near her place'.

bad2thebone

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/members-of-the-oireachtas-among-objectors-to-clare-wind-farm-674632

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-are-bats-affected-wind-turbines

Supposedly they're not sure why it's happening, it could be the propellers. It would be obvious to me that they're not helping anyway.

https://greennews.ie/study-identifies-bats-birds-vulnerable-turbine-collisions/

I should have rephrased my post sorry, but I should have said that the green party are in favor of wind turbines and switching off the other power stations.

My mistake they have no vested interests in wind turbines that I know of, they're a political party so as far as I know they're not a business.

The wind diesel turbine system isn't environmentaly friendly either.

And the amount of fossil fuels they need to run and maintain isn't cheap.

I've seen the wind turbines flying around when the ocean was so calm it was like a sheet of ice, and not moving at all when there was a moderate breeze.

Maybe you can explain that !

Podge_irl

I've seen the wind turbines flying around when the ocean was so calm it was like a sheet of ice, and not moving at all when there was a moderate breeze.

Maybe you can explain that !

Its a massive conspiracy and they thought no one would notice...

The wind at sea level and the wind at blade level are not the same.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382634#Comment_119382634

Wind turbines don't rotate when there is no demand for their energy. Typically peak energy demand is 4pm.to 7pm. When there is no need for them to turn they tilt the blades. When wind is very light they can tilt the blades to make best use of very light wind.

Back to the OP. Gas was and is used as it's very cheap (cheaper than oil and coal), and most power stations do have some options to use oil or coal as back up to some extent. The Russians are putting pressure on Germany etc to not support the war enough to have a real impact on who will win and it's working. The Russians turned down the gas taps months ago to ensure Europe could not fill up their reserves during the summer and so if/when the gas is turned off the impact would be very quick. Russia needs the billions in gas money to fund the war and day to day running costs so they don't want to shut it off fully.

I'm terms of wind, without our existing wind we would be even more reliant on gas. On suitably windy days gas power stations can turn off, saving gas, and they can switch quickly back on when wind drops.

The green party/government policy has been anti new liquid natural gas terminal, They delayed the rubbish burning/)waste to energy Dublin plant even after it had permission by delaying permits for decades. It shows even with permission that actually getting these things up and running can be a big problem here.

The gas in mayo was delayed decades too. The plant was fully finished for many years but could not be used.

If gas is highly restricted there is some options. Increase gas prices to homes so they don't use gas and instead light the fire etc. They have already told data centres that between 4pm.and 7pm they may be required to use their back up generators to save the electricity grid.

We should expedite a liquid natural gas terminal and fast track more wind turbines, but in the short term they won't arrive fast enough.

With the new smart meters we already increase electricity prices at peak times. They should immediately increase peak prices, meanwhile installing automatic ways of reducing power at peak times such as putting timers on everyone's water heater/immersion so it cannot be used say 4pm.to 7pm.

Newer electric car home chargers can in theory switch off when grid is struggling and switch on when there is excess wind.

We should install solar PV panels on 90% of houses but typically they only work well 12-2pm in summer.

We should assume the shortages of gas will last 2-3 years and in the long term it makes sense to have more alternatives. Long term gas, oil and coal are getting more expensive as we are using up all the worlds fossil fuels.

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383412#Comment_119383412

I think the there was a gas terminal proposed on the Shannon estuary but for some reason it didn't happen.

It would be good if we found more lakes of gas like the one off kinsale.

I remember those natural gas adverts year's ago.

Solar panels would need a bit of a heater or self cleaning in order to get rid of stains, frost and snow.

They need to be very clean in order to soak up enough sunlight.

As for wind turbines, I'm not gone on them, they're horrible looking things. And sound horrific.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382514#Comment_119382514

Coal is a killer. Smoky coal should have been banned nationwide long before now. Turf is little better, it was only allowed in "smokeless" zones in Dublin for political / economic reasons in the 80s. It's terrible for the environment where it's harvested as well as where it's burnt.

To be specific about motor vehicles, it's diesel which is the problem. Petrol cars are much cleaner but continue to be penalised by the motor tax system, which is crazy.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119384391#Comment_119384391

The revision of the Motor Tax rules was available to the Gov when the Green Party were not part of it but it did not happen. So to blame the junior party in the pre 2011 election for the current motor taxes is a bit ingenuous.

It was always open to the Enda Kenny led Gov to revise them, but it did not happen. No Green involvement at all. They also did nothing about smoky coal, despite all the evidence of the harm it caused.

spontindeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058255314/eu-seeks-to-cut-gas-use-by-15-from-august-to-march

Varadkar has sacrificed us as the poster-boys of Europe (similar to Enda Kenny) and with the radical Green Party in charge.

The next Government should reinstate gas exploration off our coast because we have large reserves of clean natural gas off our coasts which should be tapped into. Bord Gáis should be brought back under state-ownership and launch this project and the price should be below-market rates.

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119395247#Comment_119395247

Just figured I'd share this news with you! Ireland hasn't been sacrificed!

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/07/26/eu-governments-reach-deal-to-ration-gas-use-this-winter/

spontindeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119396987#Comment_119396987

My point still stands: Varadkar loves the EU so he gave in to the radical green agenda which the EU wanted. That's called sacrificing to the EU.

Podge_irl

What is the obsession with pretending the Greens are in charge everywhere? It's not true.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119395247#Comment_119395247

The actual gas infrastructure site of Bord Gais remains in state ownership as Gas Networks Ireland / Ervia. They also own the backbone network in Northern Ireland, albeit Carrickfergus/Belfast is owned by British Gas and the rural network is owned by SGN.

One of the three interconnectors is owned by British Gas, the other two (and the link to the Isle of Man) is owned by GNI.

Bord Gais that was sold was the customer supply side. The state still owns a gas customer supply firm - Electric Ireland.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397649#Comment_119397649

I would assume that such posts assume all things bad are the result of the green lizards Green Party is taking over the world.

There is definitely global climate change - of that there is no doubt.

Anyone who recognises that fact wants action to mitigate the results of global climate change. Unfortunately, the vested interests try to malign any efforts that affect them - which is everybody because it is a global problem that will affect everybody.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397422#Comment_119397422

Ah it's almost like the "good old days" when every week we'd have posters screaming about how Enda Kenny was selling us out to the EU so he'd get a nice cushy EU job.

What's he up to these days again? 🙄

worth pointing out that this is essentially bailing Germany out for their awful and dangerous moves to cozy up to Russian Gas at the cost of fellow EU countries.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374306#Comment_119374306

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post but isn't our lack of a connection with France a good thing in the current context? Had we had one, we'd be obliged cut our consumption like the rest of the connected countries. The lack of one means we're exempt as an island nation.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421371#Comment_119421371

Its an electricity connection, not a gas one, that's being proposed. That would (well, should) allow us to get cheaper non-gas produced electricity from the EU market and reduce our gas consumption.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421447#Comment_119421447

True about the electricity connector however the poster also bemoned the lack of a gas connection, which would have, if we had it, put is in the same position as the continental countries being prevailed upon to cut their gas consumption.

Widescreen

Airlines are one of the biggest polluters and possibly the major contributor to "climate change" - the world airways guide is about six inches thick, there are thousands and thousands of planes on the go worldwide 24/7 pumping their filthy effluent in to the atmosphere.

Will they do anything radical to stop this, no chance, they just try and get everyone to get an electric car and thick woolly clothing for the winter and get on with it!

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421528#Comment_119421528

There's a huge amount of cash being fired at "sustainable aviation fuel", e.g. something from plants or animals which will have consumed/eaten carbon to be formed.

e.g. this thing that will make flying non-vegan

This really isn't going to solve anything. But we are stuck on a sodding island, with an incompatible train gauge as well as a nuclear arms dump in the way on the shortest land route to anywhere else for trains; so flying is going to remain vital here.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421371#Comment_119421371

Yes, as mentioned what is being planned (+ what I thought might be helpful to have now if it had been prioritised after Brexit) is an electricity interconnector with France. That was mainly what I meant.

Although having a gas pipeline connection to the rest of the EU too might seem to harm Ireland in the current circumstances where Russia is sqeezing supply (as you say we'd be involved in EU burden sharing etc.) it would also reduce our vulnerability as well.

At the moment we need imports of gas as we don't produce enough ourselves and it all comes through a pipeline under the control of a non EU member with a somewhat unstable and unpredictible govt. regularly engaged in argy bargy with the EU which we are also at the heart of (the NI protocol). We don't actually know how bad the EU-UK relations are going to get in coming years or where this ends up. It all seems risky, a single point of failure I suppose.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421621#Comment_119421621

"Although having a gas pipeline connection to the rest of the EU too might seem to harm us in the current circumstances (as you say we'd be involved in EU burden sharing etc.) it would also reduce our vulnerability as well."

If there was to be another pipeline, I think I would choose a direct line with Norway rather than an interconnect with an EU country. Not sure about the economics of it but we would be less vulnerable to the EU cutting us off to save the core EU countries in the event of a major energy crisis. But, yes, I agree with the general principle of not relying on one single pipeline.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421657#Comment_119421657

That would be a lot longer of a pipeline I would think (!) but I am no gas/electrictity infrastructure expert and just a layman commenting so take my opinions with a mine of salt. I hadn't read/heard anything about new pipelines.

The only thing I know is that an LNG terminal was planned for Ireland. That piece of infrastructure would also help with the single point of failure problem and reliance on UK. This (fact a company wants to construct it if allowed to) suggests that may be the more economically feasible/efficient project. I dunno.

edit: BTW your sneaky characterisation of what is going on now/could happen in winter as "the EU cutting peripheral countries off from gas supplies to save the core" is twisted and editorialised, but that seems to be par for the course around here.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421528#Comment_119421528

Aviation is about 2% of global emissions IIRC

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421657#Comment_119421657

Which is all well and good (well, apart from being logistically nightmarish to impossible) until at some point you piss off the Norwegians who have no compunction about cutting off a tiny peripheral market.

Burden sharing within the EU comes with its downsides but also has benefits.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422298#Comment_119422298

You mean like if a Scandinavian version of Putin got in power up there and threatened cutting of countries' gas if he didn't get his way?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422979#Comment_119422979

Or there is simply a breakdown in diplomatic relations. Or they find a more lucrative market to sell to. A small country/market being entirely beholden to one other country is not a great position to be in.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421657#Comment_119421657

The Norway to UK pipelines are the second largest undersea pipelines in the world, Nordstreams are just a bit bigger. How much would it cost Ireland to build a pipeline to Norway to deliver gas and how long will it take do you think ?

Alun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422979#Comment_119422979

Not exactly that scenario but eerily close ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429224#Comment_119429224

Also both of those pipelines have huge markets on the end of them, not a piddly little one, not a hope in hell of this happening.

Sam Russell

Could we have a pipeline tap into the one from the Norway-UK? We would then only need a link from the UK landing point to the island of Ireland.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381363#Comment_119381363

Unfortunately the Greens are going nowhere. They will be needed by sf to form a government so like many times in the past they're a handy mechanism to make up the numbers.

However, in the past their ramblings seemed fairly harmless (like a dozy,socially awkward teenager who suddenly gets really into a school project, you'd nearly be happy for them) Those days are long gone,their policies are ludicrous in places,are not based in current real world realities and are downright dangerous to the country.

Yet they will still be dragged into government again,I guarantee you.

Podge_irl

Utterly bizarre to be blaming the party who wants to move away from fossil fuels for the fossil fuel shortage.

Hotblack Desiato

To have any chance of being in government they will need TDs. That's far from a given.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431699#Comment_119431699

It’s really not bizzare at all.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431699#Comment_119431699

No it's really not. They've blocked an LNG terminal and banned gas drilling in Irish waters, so we're dependent on imports even though known reserves are there. (Never mind their braindead stance on nuclear power)

So far their plan is somewhat like this:

Ban Hydrocarbons

?????

Profit!

Technologies which don't exist, don't work, or aren't affordable to the rescue!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432088#Comment_119432088

They have their problems for sure but they have spent naff all time in government over the last 30 years apart from anything else. This problem may be slightly exacerbated by them, but people act like it's their fault.

beggars_bush

Green party are far too urban based