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All Blacks v Ireland part II - July 9 8.05am Ireland time

  • 04-07-2022 11:24pm
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Mr Clever

    Ireland go again. Looks like more free money with NZ at -15 on the handicap



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Mr Clever

    When will team be announced ?

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,867 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep

    Oh I dunno about that. Venjur puts a lot of effort into his match thread openers being ****, I'd hate for him to be outdone by this minimalist shitposting bullshit.

    (Venjur, I love your threads, this is a joke)

  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Mr Clever

    Sexton passed fit to play. Whitelock out for NZ

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack

    Squad Update Monday

    Ireland will get a few more bodies back on the pitch this week, with Rob Herring and Harry Byrne both expected to take a full part in training and Mack Hansen having completed his isolation period for Covid-19.

    Ed Byrne and Stuart McCloskey are both fresh off the plane, the latter replacing his Ulster team-mate James Hume who has unfortunately returned home with a groin injury.

    Ireland captain Jonathan Sexton, who came off during the first half of the opening Test, will complete the HIA process today (latest update was that he has passed it), but front rowers Jeremy Loughman and Dave Heffernan are both confirmed criteria one concussions and will follow the 12-day return-to-play protocols.

    After withdrawing from the matchday squad due to Covid, prop Finlay Bealham will be available to train later this week once his period of isolation is complete.

    Post edited by Jump_In_Jack on

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  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭SaoPaulo41

    Jordan and Goodhue both available

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,719 ✭✭✭TRC10

    I hope they stick with O'Toole on the bench over Bealham. He finished the season very strongly and I think he's gone well on this tour so far and we'll gain more in the long-term by sticking with him.

    Still can't fathom why Ed Byrne was called out over Wycherley. Byrne is 29 and has been nothing more than a squad depth URC player for his entire career. Wycherley is 23 and starting European knockouts.

  • I've seen multiple people say it now, but the timing of Ed Byrne's call out was when they knew they were without Loughman and thought they might be without Healy too, so they were looking for someone to parachute straight into a match squad potentially. Byrne most likely got the call down to the fact he had the most experience of being in the camp compared to Wycherley or Warwick, and therefore would be the quickest up to speed with calls and systems etc.

    On Wycherley, he will likely get his chance. He's far from a finished product though, and that European knock out game you mention he started in was one where the Munster scrum conceded multiple penalties to Toulouse.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,719 ✭✭✭TRC10

    The whole point of this tour is testing guys under pressure. Yes it would have been tough for Wycherley, but that's the whole point. Calling out Ed Byrne is very short sighted and him starting v the Mãori would be a massive waste. He's never been a test quality player and never will be. Wycherley as least has the potential to be. Not to mention he's been playing at a much higher level than Byrne of late .

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  • Yeah, I generally agree with you here, and I think if it had been a matter of picking a squad before they'd left Ireland, Wycherley probably would have been ahead of Byrne. But the scenario they were working under was one where the player might have jumped off a plane straight into a match squad. Such a scenario I think goes beyond "testing" him, and is closer to actually setting him up to fail.

  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney

    Has anyone been around senior squads and knows what this entails? What kind of thing would a LH prop need to be up to speed on specifically with relation to the Irish team as opposed to their provincial side? Would whatever that is not have significantly changed since the last time Ed Byrne was with Ireland anyway?

  • Obviously the big three would be the line out calls, scrum calls and then the defensive systems. On top of that, players will be expected to slot into the attacking systems the team is using; patterns/pods etc, when you're expected to be there to clear a ruck, when to hold positioning anticipating an attack down a channel a couple of phases time etc.

    While the calls will evolve and change slightly all the time, the core systems are in place and one player having had familiarity with them from a training camp before is obviously a big advantage over one who hasn't.

    I've no idea how the Irish ones differ from the Munster ones, but it would certainly seem that Ireland aspire to play a very different brand of rugby from Munster.

  • In general anyway, why do people believe there is some grand conspiracy here against non-Leinster players? Or why would Andy Farrell have any perceived bias towards Leinster players?

    If anything, he briefly spent time in the Munster coaching set up back in 2016, and has no specific links to Leinster.

    Is it not plausible that he is in a better place to judge this, and has a better notion of what he's looking for?

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Former Former Former

    If starting for Munster didn't get Wycherley picked ahead of Loughman, there's no reason to think it should get him picked ahead of Byrne.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,889 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    Lineouts and lifting would come to mind particularly. Also the defensive systems. Do you think props only role is the scrum?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭theVersatile

    Positioning/roles off multiphase moves would be another obvious one. I imagine Byrne would be somewhat familiar with the patterns used.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Shehal

    When Irish fans question why we don't have young options well its selections like this that are the reason why.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Shehal

    My team

    1 Porter

    2 Sheehan

    3 Furlong

    4 Beirne

    5 Ryan

    6 O'Mahony

    7 VDF

    8 Conan

    9 JGP

    10 Sexton

    11 Lowe

    12 Aki

    13 Henshaw

    14 Larmour

    15 Keenan

    16 Herring 17 Healy 18 O'Toole 19 Baird 20 Doris 21 Murray 22 Carbery 23 Ringrose

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Shehal

    Right so Wycherley was the only reason Munster concede a boatload of penalties at scrum time. This is exactly the issue was have in Irish rugby, we wait for one of these young players to make a mistake and when they do we hold it against them forever no matter any of the good stuff they do (even though I've yet to see the evidence that Wycherley was directly responsible for those penalties, and never the less if thats the case why has his front row partner at Munster been called up when he also was part of that pack?)

    Also with all due respect if you aren't picking Wycherley for the penalties he's conceded at the scrum why the hell is penalty machine in chief Ed Byrne bene called up?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,715 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh

    The whole point of the tour is to test guys in pressurised environments while also giving them the tools they need to be successful in that examination. Putting a guy in who knows a sum total of none of the calls and none of the structure while giving him absolutely no time to learn them or train with the squad is putting him under the wrong type of pressure and all but ensuring that he’ll fail. That’s not a good thing.

    Honestly, this stuff isn’t some grand mystery that people can’t be expected to figure out. It’s pretty basic. Test teams don’t just meet up in the car park before games and figure it out on the pitch.

  • I didn't specifically say Wycherley was the reason for all of those penalties, merely stated a fact that he was part of a scrum that was demolished. Stephen Archer was the main culprit, but Wycherley struggled that day in the tight.

    The comment was in response to a specific comment about Wycherley starting European Cup games; if that's going to be held up in his favour then it should be rightly pointed out that he struggled in the scrum that day, a point noted in the Rugby Pass (, Limerick Post ( and Irish Examiner player ratings of the game (

    I've clearly made the argument above for why I believe they called Byrne out there instead of Wycherley. If you can't be bothered to read it, that's your business.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Former Former Former

    The very same people would be slating Farrell if they threw Wycherley in and he had a nightmare.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Shehal

    Except if that was the case why have 3 other members of that same scrum been called up to the Irish squad, Are they held to a lower standard? Did he struggle or is he just another convenient scapegoat? You are holding him to a redicilously high standard if you expect him to hold up a scrum all by himself especially against a monster pack like the Toulouse pack.

    Reading into those rating it seems Wycherley is just being labelled as a convenient scape goat because he's young, how do we know it was his fault or Archer? They both need to be working in tandem for the scrum to function.

    Except the your reasoning is nonsense, there is no logic for not picking Wycherley for conceding scrum pens and then selecting Ed Byrne who's as bad as anyone in this department.

  • This is my last time engaging with your repeated nonsense.

    Wycherley had a poor game in the scrum against Toulouse. The whole pack struggled, but a number of penalties were specifically on him. That's a fact.

    We know a penalty is on him, when the referee calls out the Munster loose head as the culprit when he's awarding the penalty.

    The reason I gave, once again, if you'd bothered to read the thread, was that they called up Byrne specifically because they thought it was a scenario where potentially both Loughman and Healy were out of the tour, and they needed to call someone up to potentially just hop off a plane and straight into a match day squad, with virtually no time to train, no time to get to know the other squad members, familiarise yourself with scrum & lineout calls, defensive systems, attacking shapes etc. Byrne likely got the call in this instance because he had previously been part of the squad, and therefore, making the best of a bad situation, would be quicker to jump in if required.

    I'm all for backing young players when they show they're ready, and wouldn't have objected to Wycherley being brought on this tour from the starrt, but calling him out late and potentially straight into a test team in the situation the management thought they might be doing would do him absolutely no favours whatsoever, it would be likelier to see him exposed badly, and shatter his confidence.

    Andy Farrell, Simon Easterby, Paul O'Connell and John Fogarty know these players better than you or I, so I'm going to trust their judgment in this scenario, while you carry on with your conspiracies.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,392 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

    Ed Byrne has experience. I'd say that was what mattered. Ed is not up to the requirements needed

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Shehal

    You do a great job at spewing nonsense yourself I must say. If the whole pack struggled the whole pack shouldnt have been selected, which penalties were these?

    Well that reasoning is dumb, picking a player who's a journeyman and wont go much further and wasting a cap or two and vital experience on them and not a young player who would gain so much more from it is just such an Irish selection, you would never see France do this in a similar situation, they would back Wycherley for the reasons I said.

    There is nothing Wycherley will ever do in a CC or URC game to show he is ready, the only way we will ever know they are ready is when they line out for their country. The key point is you need to be willing to make that selection call and in Ireland unfortaunely we just dont have that in our culture, we just prefer the safe option that's least likely to embarrass us rather than the option that is most likely to be successful, that the difference between RWC winners and losers like ourselves.

    And he'll learn from the experience and come back stronger like good players tend to do.

    Good and ill hold all 4 of them to scrutiny come the RWC, that's where they will be judged based on these conservative selection calls.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Shehal

    Experience of what? Being a penalty machine? Because that's not what we need right now. It doesnt matter how much experience they have if the player is bloody mediocre, again such an Irish selection call.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭irelandrover

    Wycherley had a poor game in the scrum against Toulouse. The whole pack struggled, but a number of penalties were specifically on him. That's a fact.

    Just on this. I seem to remember him getting his ass handed to him in the first two scrums but then sorting it out. I thought how he sorted it was impressive.

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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney

    No but it seems odd to me that Ireland's lineout calls and defensive systems have not changed since the last time Ed Byrne was with the squad. It seems like that would make it too easy for the opposition to analyse and know what we're planning to do.