Law with regard to filming

Markus Antonius

The ambiguity around laws is more powerful than the law itself. If I want to film in a public place with my own personal camera - everything I see, I am at liberty to film? Is this not correct?

Yet there appear to be different laws when it comes to CCTV on private property where you are only allowed to point to an area within the perimeter and not towards neighbours or public land under data protection according to this link:

https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/dpc-guidance/blogs/domestic-cctv

Why do we have less rights filming on our own private property than we do in public?

source

Because on a private premises there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, in public spaces there isn't.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125745#Comment_119125745

But anything that is visible from public space is allowed to be filmed. The onus is on the private person/business etc. to limit what can be viewed from the public space (i.e. by means of a wall/hedge/curtains etc.)

rock22

@Markus Antonius "The onus is on the private person/business etc. to limit what can be viewed from the public space (i.e. by means of a wall/hedge/curtains etc.)"

No it isn't

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129028#Comment_119129028

Ok, so if I take a camera and film in the city centre, I need to make sure I don't get any houses or businesses in the shot? This is simply not the case.

Patrick2010

How is google street view legal then?

kirving

It comes down to what is a reasonable expectation of privacy, balanced with the general public's liberties.

Passing Street View van outside your house? OK

Tourist with a camera outside your house? OK

Professional photographer with a long lens who climbed a tree to see in your window? Not OK.

CCTV pointed directly at your neighbors rear garden? Not OK.

CCTV that happens to cover a small corner of their front garden? Debatable.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119134943#Comment_119134943

While that sounds like it makes a lot of sense, is it really reflected this way in the law though? I can't imagine the law gets into the nuances of whether there is a photographer in a tree or not - if the tree is in a public place then does it matter if he is in a tree or not?

Take the Connacht final yesterday, the cameraman was in a cherrypicker behind the stand - he was filming people standing on their balcony outside their apartment watching the match. Why is this more innocent or acceptable than a photographer in a tree?

kirving

I mean an apartment balcony would have less expectation to privacy than a rear garden, but as you say the law cannot prescribe a set of circumstances really.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119135768#Comment_119135768

Yes, you could also see inside their apartment, which you would not be able to do without a cherry picker.

Not only would the law have to prescribe circumstances but it would also have to take the photographers motives into account too.

Which takes us back to my original point as to why filming from my own private property is under stricter regulation than if I were to film from a public place. I personally think that the rules outlined on Data Protection website (link in OP) is a load of BS. It doesn't use definitive language in the paragraphs either (i.e. "should only operate in a way that captures images of people within the perimeter of the CCTV operator’s own property") let alone refer back to any black and white laws on the topic.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119135850#Comment_119135850

Does the section about compliance mean householders need to put up a sign saying 'CCTV operating here' and then keep the tapes for a designated time period?

Would that not mean every house that has a camera/ring doorbell needs to put up signs, as those systems capture outside front gates and footpaths outside the house.

hullaballoo

Very often, confusion arises in relation to legal questions because someone has done a job of trying to paint many shades of grey in pure black and white terms.

It's the same here, one of the most frequently discussed topics in this forum and the Photography forum is what is the law on capturing images. For various reasons, it is not a straightforward question and the answer is even less so. The other part of it is that when the first thread popped up on this in probably 2006 or so, the not-very-straightforward answer would have been completely different to the not-very-straightforward answer today.

People have competing rights. Only courts can determine whose rights win out. Photographers have a right to take pictures in public but if the subjects are human then they have rights in relation to privacy and increasingly, rights over their own image.

Photographers don't have a general right to take pictures in private but can gain a right if there is consent. The subjects might still have rights in relation to the use of their image though.

Then you've to look at what's public and what's private. Another moveable feast. Another gamut of grey.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119135899#Comment_119135899

Yes exactly, this is a great point. This should in no way be applicable to domestic households. Yet it appears the DPC are using laws designed to protect public privacy from private institutions against the very public they should be protecting.

They are using the large amount of complaints from disputing neighbors as the basis to extend GDPR laws to private citizens. This is just plain wrong.

The Continental Op

I witnessed a crime on the street - rural area - and gave a statement to the garda who said they were going to see if anyone locally had any CCTV footage of the car involved. No way could there be any CCTV footage if there were no cameras pointing out on the road from people's houses?

Easten

What about situations like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th71WJIB8CY

and do we need permission to film within a public building?

Hellrazer

Its an interesting topic that seems to have a very grey area.

What about the likes of door bell cameras? Mine points out from the front door and when viewing the footage it points at the neighbours across the road.However I have the detection area limited to inside my own gardens perimeter.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141137#Comment_119141137

The problem is that the people who don't like filming/being filmed are the ones who are purposely greying the law to meet their needs eg. DPC, Gardai

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142526#Comment_119142526

Surely the problem is with the person filming people who don't like being filmed?

It is not unusual to expect privacy in your own home. Nothing is absolute and you can always be filmed in your front garden by someone filming the street outside.

That is different to aiming a camera at someone's house/garden. And the protection enjoyed by the potential targets of the filming, i.e. the neighbours of the OP, applies whether the camera is is the OP's property, as implied by the OP, or is in a public area. So there is no different in the law between having the camera in a public place on on your own property.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119134531#Comment_119134531

it blurs people faces and registration numbers of cars. years ago there was a guy on Joe Duffy who said he was to be seen clearly inside his windows in his living room. For some reasion the blur thing did not work.I think he contacted google and they blurred him or else he was raising it first on Duffy

a man i knew who lived on a cul de sac is on it just after getting out of his car. No one else around i know it's him and the area and his car but his face and car reg are blurred not recognisable

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119135899#Comment_119135899

Yes, it does mean they should have signs up, which isn't a hugely unreasonable request.

Now if you want to really open a can of worms, let's talk about dashcams and helmet-cameras? Does every such car or bike need to have warning signs too?

There is a 'journalistic exemption' to some GDPR requirements, so maybe we're all citizen journalists?

Viscount Aggro

What about filming people in public, then posting it on your Facebook, Instagram page ?

There's a lady in Ranelagh does it each day.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119192847#Comment_119192847

Exactly, and those new camera specs will be the same as dash cams, they can record without people realising afaik.

in what context does she post it? Is it a news type report, that might be classed as editorial. Or if not why does she film them?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119192864#Comment_119192864

Markus Antonius

I contacted the DPC with more or less the same question in the OP and they came back with this response:

Dear Mr. Markus Antonius,

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence to this office dated 30 May 2022.

I note you are seeking clarification on when the domestic exemption applies in regards to recording or taking photographs within the boundary of an individuals property V's taking photographs/recordings in public places.

Article 2(2)(c) of the General Data Protection Regulation (GPPR) provides for what is commonly known as the household or domestic exemption. What this means is that individuals can process the personal data of others as long as it is for purely personal or household reasons and data protection law does not apply to such processing if it is within the context of this domestic exemption. Often individuals wish to install CCTV cameras around their home. As long as the cameras are not recording a public space or the property of neighbours and are only recording one’s own garden/driveway, then this domestic exemption will also apply.

If any part of another person’s property or a public roadway is being recorded by the cameras, then the domestic exemption is lost and data protection law applies. Under those circumstances, individuals become data controllers and must have a lawful basis for the processing of personal data under Article 6 of the GDPR.

There are 6 lawful bases for the processing of personal data. For example, Article 6(1)(f) of the GDPR permits processing by an individual/entity as a data controller where the ‘processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the data controller or by a third party’ unless overridden by the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

The same circumstances apply when taking a photograph in a public place, data protection law does not prohibit this, however, it is what an individual does with that photograph (for example publish on social media or share to a wide audience) that can then engage data protection law.

The following two podcasts may be of interest to you :

Domestic CCTV :

Know Your Data - Episode Four | 09/07/2019 | Data Protection Commission 

The following podcast, although not quite on point, addresses taking photos in public places, and when data protection law may become engaged :

Know Your Data – Episode Five | 08/08/2019 | Data Protection Commission 

I hope the above information is of assistance to your enquiry.

Yours Sincerely,

Chewie Lewie

So it looks like there is no law to say you can't record anything, either in public or on your private property but what you do with the data (as some alluded to above) is what may trigger some kind of GDPR regulation.

Some points from the podcasts linked above:

-CCTV/doorbell cams/Pet cams - when pointing only at your own property fall under the Household Exemption - therefore don't require signage or for you to follow any rules with regard to processing the data

-If the camera captures a public place or neighbouring property then you have to follow GDPR rules with regard to how you use the footage (they mention that people are often too far away to be identifyable and in this case it should not be a problem)

It looks like GDPR does not come into play if you are filming for the purposes of "legitimate interests" - so as @AndrewJRenko mentioned above, if I say I'm a journalist then it appears I'm automatically at liberty to film anyone and process the data as I see fit without triggering any GDPR rules.

So it pretty much comes down to what qualifies as a "CCTV" and what does not. I still don't agree with these rules being applied to private citizens. Businesses or other entities - by all means but applying them to private citizens I feel is a step too far.

HorseSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194069#Comment_119194069

Also interested, what does she post and where?

I am in Ranelagh a lot and never noticed anyone filming.

Viscount Aggro

She's a one woman roads vigilante.