Response from Gardai not forthcoming?

1874

If in dealings with the Gardai, such as a licence application, there is no response, If the person involved takes legal action to further their application/enquiry, would they be able to recover their costs if no reason was available or presented in Court by the Gardai for their decision? If possible does that happen in the same case or does the person have to take another case to recover costs? Or do the Gardai and the Dept of Justice? have freedom from having claims made against them for costs?

Grizzly 45

Find out first wHY there has been no response before you go any legal route. How long has it been since you put in your application? If you hear nothing from them within 90 days,its considered a refusal.So then would be a good time to start asking questions as to whats going on. The super od chief must put in writing the reasons you were refused on the back of the application,and you can demand this document under FOIA if you are going further with this.

Costs are never a sure thing either. It is up to the judge to award them if he feels such are justified. it's not an automatic given that they will. Both Dept and AGS are subject to the rules and laws of the land as we all are.So there is no autonomy from a court decision either. You would not have to take a further case against AGS to recover costs, as it would still be an open case if they are not following the court's decisions. It would be simply getting your solicitor to bring them back to court, and telling the judge that they haven't paid the previous costs and have now added further costs to the proceedings and getting up the judge's nose, by them[AGS] not obeying his ruling. In short spend a lot of time jawjawing with your local aGS, before going on the Warwar in the courtroom.

1874

Thats concerning, that an award of costs is at the judges discretion, if a licence was denied either by refusal or no reply,and there was no grounds for it,based on having other licences,cant see why not. My query is if I were to apply for a firearm under a restricted licence which Im interested in,if denied,Im not sure what grounds they could refuse if a number of licences were already issued. I guess they know the cost element is what might hinder a follow up contesting it in court.

If no legitimate grounds, a person might have to rack up a large legal bill to force it through, if they lost,could they be held liable for costs themselves?

Id also be concerned that for renewals,it ask if you have ever been refused a firearms licence? what then? tick yes and all the form permits is the year & station, does it affect renewals?? no space to even explain you were declined a restricted licence,and possibly took a legal route, mostly my query is in advance,although Im still dealing with an ongoing problem and it is easy for the Gardai to fob you off.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119073415#Comment_119073415

For restricted the main one they pick up on is no good and sufficient reason for the restricted firearm, which is why you would need to explain(either in a cover letter or interview) your reasons why:

1 - You need the firearm(target shooting, hunting, other, etc),

2 - A non restricted version of that firearm would not do(ie a shotgun with slugs vs one without, if you needed slugs for target shooting at a range for example. Or a centrefire semiauto rifle vs a bolt action).

I'll leave the court side to people who are more experienced in that arena, but for refusals from my experience they don't tend to make any difference if the reason wasn't one which might have impact on future licences.

IE you were refused for a licence because you had a drug addiction. That would be cause for them to investigate that aspect of your life if you ever applied for another licence. Sort of a memory aid if you will, but absolutely not an automatic refusal because you had a refusal in the past.

In particular if you get the "no good and sufficient reason" excuse for refusing your application then unless you attempt to put forward a duplicate application with no changed merits or reasons then that previous refusal may be referenced in the next refusal, but if it is a different application then it wouldn't have any bearing(from my experience).

So to make the last 2 paragraphs a tad clearer, if you got refused for a restricted based on not having(in the chief's mind) a good reason for it vs a non restricted then that should not affect future licence applications provided those future applications had a good(or better than the refused one's) reason. The only time it would affect them is if there was an ongoing issue which was the reason for a refusal(intemperate habits, etc).

Finally, if you are refused the reason they only ask for station and year is so they can reference that refusal, there is nothing stopping you submitting a separate page with an explanation of why you were refused the firearm, there just isn't the space on the, lets be honest dreadfully designed, form. :P

Same reason as it asks in various places to "explain on another sheet", because there isn't the space provided on the form itself.

Hope that makes some of the aspects of this a bit clearer.

Grizzly 45

if I were to apply for a firearm under a restricted licence which Im interested in,if denied,Im not sure what grounds they could refuse if a number of licences were already issued. I guess they know the cost element is what might hinder a follow up contesting it in court.

What type of restricted firearm is it? It could be very well with this proposed consulting that they are stalling out and using this, illegally, as an excuse not to process your application. FUNI has already had reports of this happening in some stations around the country.As at the moment, there are NO changes to the law so any and all applications must be considered and dealt with as the legislation stands.

If no legitimate grounds, a person might have to rack up a large legal bill to force it through, if they lost,could they be held liable for costs themselves?

As any good lawyer will tell you this point. Going to court is a duel with uncertain outcomes. All they can try and do is stack the legal odds in your favour, so you have a good a chance as humanely possible of winning. You have to show that you did everything possible to resolve the situation and that your being in a courtroom is your "ultima ratio"[final argument] to the situation. Hence,you have to find out what happened to your application.It could be just simply gathering dust in someone's IN tray because the officer in charge of applications is being pulled off to do duty on multiple other situations requiring a priority.Or it could be something more sinister.But you need that info first before deciding on any course of action.

Id also be concerned that for renewals,it ask if you have ever been refused a firearms licence? what then? tick yes and all the form permits is the year & station, does it affect renewals?? no space to even explain you were declined a restricted licence,and possibly took a legal route, mostly my query is in advance,although Im still dealing with an ongoing problem and it is easy for the Gardai to fob you off.

If you saw how many refusal dates I fill in on every application, you would think I must be some arch-criminal! NO! It makes no difference on any applications, as these refusals were political Garda/Govt reasons and not for criminal misbehaviour,and they well know it. I just fill it in as it is required to do so. So don't let that be off-putting to any future applications. In fact, some of us consider it a badge of honour. As in most cases as the song goes "I fought the law and I won!"

Subject above all depending on what your "legal problem" is of course.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058246047/response-from-gardai-not-forthcoming

It's possible to recover costs. As above, it's at the courts discretion. It's not a guarantee, happens in the same case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119073415#Comment_119073415

What is concerning for you about costs being at the courts discretion? That's how it works for most court cases.

If refused, they should have some grounds. But they can also be challenged. But having other licenses doesn't mean a restricted license can't have valid grounds for refusal.

Have you actually been refused? Or applied yet? Curious as you said "if I were to reply..." It might just be delayed.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119075927#Comment_119075927

I havent applied for a restricted licence yet, Ive already had to wait more than half a year to get unrestricted licences signed off.

The concerning part is if a decision was overturned, then how long is a piece of string type scenario, it might be/get expensive, more so if a decision wasn't overturned, may I have to pay costs? or just lose? thats my main concern, that it could get expensive. I havent actually applied for a restricted firearm yet, although I have not had refusals for non restricted renewals,

I consider something seems different regarding renewals, in that I have submitted a renewal recently and a few Gardai refused to simply sign the section that acknowledges I am the person on the form and that it's been received confirming my ID and put the form in the FO's inbox/pigeon hole for mail, and insisted the FO had to sign it, I tried to explain it by showing the section but they just persisted, there was no point me further persisting as it was a refusal to accept the form and a refusal to sign the form, Ive been told receipts need to be issued for paperwork but even this seems like the response is you are giving them work and they will respond in kind, ie lose the paperwork.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119077185#Comment_119077185

Was there current application refused initially? Was there a reason, that you presumably overcame?

If anyone takes a matter like this to court. I’d suggest they don’t bank of costs back if they win. It might happen, and great if it’s does. But you’d have to be prepared to pay for your day in court.

Similarly, I would expect to be hit up for State costs if you lose, but it could happen I suppose - probably more likely in spurious outliers.

Sounds a little you’re worrying about something that is yet to happen. Deal with it if it happens. But if your applying and have a good reason, then odds are in your favour.

1874

No, I haven't had an application refused. In part I was enquiring about a restricted licence, plus I was waiting on a response from the Gardai related to another matter where items I owned were taken in by Gardai (Ive another post about that), from what Ive heard from a few people, it appears like there is some kind unofficial go-slow in terms of dealing with applications and possibly in my experience with an existing renewal where Gardai had declined to even sign/accept forms and pass them on to an FO.

IMO either someone meets requirements and has a use or not, there seems to be very little if any grey area and someone shouldnt have to go to Court to enforce that at a potentially significant cost on the basis of another persons opinion of dont like the idea of something

Grizzly 45

it appears like there is some kind unofficial go-slow in terms of dealing with applications and possibly in my experience with an existing renewal where Gardai had declined to even sign/accept forms and pass them on to an FO.

It seems to be that alright,or something is going on.There have been a few reports of people being told that nothing will be done until this committee review of the legislation happens. IOW people using any excuse...they have to act with the law as it is currently written,not on future outcomes. If a Garda is refusing to accept or sign forms from a member of the piublic.He/she would be in gross derelection of their duty,and an immediate formal complaint made to their superior officer or duty Seargent and Garda Ombudsman at worst would be in their future.