Softening house market?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940107#Comment_119940107

Are your mammy and daddy still paying your expenses for you?

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940116#Comment_119940116

are both of yous not 15 years old, living at home having fights with nobodies online?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940120#Comment_119940120

Not only that, depending on the age of the poster it may be the case that they finished their LC at a time when a minority got the opportunity to do so.

FedoraTheAura

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940054#Comment_119940054

Exactly!

What a ridiculous statement to make. There’s not a snowballs chance in hell if that person had kids that age they’d be throwing them out the door these days. Which in turn means they know the goalposts have moved significantly since their time.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940232#Comment_119940232

It's a bit ridiculous for them to come to the conclusion that the only expenses a trainee accountant could have would be exam fees and membership fees. That's even ignoring potential debts from college.

I know someone who started training with one of the "Big 4" after the crash and I recall them saying their annual salary was 20k or a bit under. That was ACA which would be seen by some as more prestigious than ACCA. You'd hardly be overdosing on the avocados on it

GoldFour4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940252#Comment_119940252

The person in the post is 10 years post qualified now. Regardless of any debt they incurred when training they should be in a good position financially now.

The housing crisis is crap but an accountant with 10 years post qualified experience is not the victim in the crisis at all. Obviously everyone’s situation may be different but the typical person in that situation is on over €100k.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940434#Comment_119940434

I'm not an accountant. But the information in the link below appears to show figures a lot less than your 100k. Do you have an alternate source to back up your assertions of 100k+ salaries? We have to talk about averages here, not specific extreme cases.

It is also quite possible that the person is trying to buy housing in certain areas. They may well have been chasing a moving target for the past few years.

https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Certification=Chartered_Certified_Accountant%3A_ACCA_(Association_of_Chartered_Certified_Accountants)/Salary

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940252#Comment_119940252

Salaries for big 4 trainees were never 20k( in the past 15 years ), starting would have been 27/28k quickly rising to 45k + once you pass your final exams ( after 2 or 3 years depending on if you have a masters or not).

nowadays people are going into industry post completion of their training contracts on 70-85k ( at 25/26).

im referring to big 4 graduates.

more representative salary info here albeit includes all not just big 4

https://landing.cpl.com/sg-ire/cpl-salary-guide-for-ireland-2022.pdf

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940551#Comment_119940551

Well, you'd be wrong. Just because you "feel" that they wouldn't have been, does not make it so. Feel free to find someone who trained with them around that time and ask them. If I recall correctly, I remember talk about them being frozen too so that the new trainees were not to get their normal bump in their second year.

There was one year where big 4 trainees had been scheduled to start at a certain rate and by the time it came for them to start, their offers were cut by about 25%.

Edit: Post here from someone who reported being offered 18k as a trainee for a small firm in 2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/73674079#Comment_73674079

Thread from 2010 quoting 21,500 for graduates, 22,500 for those with a masters at Deloitte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/65270349#Comment_65270349

Most threads around that time appear to be posting figures of around 21k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/64376703#Comment_64376703

There would be a big difference between 21k and your claimed 28k for a person who is only on the 21k!!!

AySeeDoubleYeh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939280#Comment_119939280

Loving that your suddenly homeless sister ended up getting married almost immediately. Wonder what could have motivated that? Never mind though she got to live near the house she was booted out of in the end - thanks, dad!

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940120#Comment_119940120

I wont. And i'll fund them while they are in college. Thats why their lives will be much easier than mine or their grand parents. But I do know lots of people who have left home in the last 5 years and they are doing ok.

The first of mine is off to college next year and then 2 the next year. And my neices and nephews who are in their early 20's. Only one of them has got up off his hole and helped himself. All of them think we had an easy life and theirs is somehow hard now. Always looking for someone to blame for their issues.

The last one was my nephew telling my uncle that he had it easy when he bought his house after he got married. He was working on building sites in Germany 7 days a week for 10 years and not spending a penny before he came home and bought a broken down shack of a house which all of us spent about 2 years bringing to a state where you wouldnt die of damp and pneumonia if you left the one room that was habitable. The little furniture they had when they started out they got as hand me downs from relatives.

And you know what they say when they are told that story? They tell him he is exaggerating and that they know the truth and he should stop lying. Im only a couple off years off being a millenial myself, but jesus its at another level now.

GoldFour4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940457#Comment_119940457

I don't have a source for ACCA as I don't believe they do a salary survey but the figures in that link are very much on the low side. ACA do survey https://barden.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Salary-Survey-2022_FINAL-1.pdf which would give you an idea of figures. There might be a slight ACA premium on some of those salaries but it would be minor.

I agree about your point about maybe trying to buy in certain areas though.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940845#Comment_119940845

You don't seem to comprehend the fact that there is next to nothing in the market to rent - and anything that is available to rent is extortionate. That's the big difference between "your day" and now. That's the part that's harder. Yes, other aspects of life are certainly much more comfortable now but no amount of hard work is going to magically fix the rental market. Also, the house price to income ratio is almost double what it was in the 80's.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940116#Comment_119940116

Not since school no. Why do you ask?

L1011

This thread has got extremely childish. This stops now or everyone involved is getting infractions.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940551#Comment_119940551

Your wrong there, my brother started with a big 4 in 2016 in dublin as a trainee accountant, his salary was 23500 no overtime pay either. He got offered 2 out of the big 4 and pay was in and around the same.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934648#Comment_119934648

It's like some people either can't read or wilfully read a post in a way that it says what they want it to say

The lad posts proof that you didn't say they won't raise rates and thinks it proves the opposite...not much point in debating people as blinkered imo

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941275#Comment_119941275

Of course there’s no overtime , it’s not a shift job, ok I’m as wrong as the 20k is 23.5k is in the middle, and as I said it was 45-50k after 2-3 years so that starting salary is irrelevant in any event.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940649#Comment_119940649

Small firms have nothing to do with it, my brother started on 11k in a small firm, I’m not even sure it was legal. And regardless even if people were starting on low 20s (which more than the 20 you claim) it doesn’t stay at that for very long, once you pass your finals , 2 or 3 years it’s over 40k and after that the limit is a function of your ability and ambitions.

sonyvision

I had to scroll up to check if this was still the softening house market or what do Trainee accountants earn in the big 4. As an accountant myself I'll tell you 100k after 4 years qualified is very possible. 23 and 24 years old in my place getting 35k plus and are not qualified. When they do qualified it will be north of 55k.

Back on topic bought a house in summer 2021, way over asking and very little on the market. Had slight buyers regret until I see similar houses in turn key condition been snapped up still. Few houses around me sale agreed now all back on the market in around 350 - 400k Mark West Dublin.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941786#Comment_119941786

Was that for your primary residence?

BTW, the discussion on trainee salaries was framed in the period after the crash. It was in response to criticism aimed at a poster (not me) who was starting out around that time and who still doesn't have a house. Here is an example of a poster from 2018 where a poster said they were earning just 18,500 as a trainee in 2013. At 27 they were still only on 35k. At 28, only 36k.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/107629904#Comment_107629904

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941053#Comment_119941053

And why is there nothing to rent. When I rented there was 5-6 of us in a three bed house. Most single people who wanted to live by themselves rented bedsits, I rented a bedsit for 3-4 month myself.

Loads of people stayed in ''digs''. I stayed in ''digs'' where there was 4 in a room. Most children going to college would be horrified if they had a share a room unless it was with a girlfriend it boyfriend. Most would not even share a room.with a sibling. FFS they are hardly willing to share a bathroom not to mind a room.

There is no concept of then and now. Back then everyone lived in A rated houses with ensuites attached to every bedroom. Everybody got a house for half nothing at 23-25 years of age with gardens and a Merc parked outside and went out to for pints 4-5 nights a week.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938695#Comment_119938695

I am an accountant and you are one of the most attractive borrowers to banks when newly qualified - strong salary growth potential, very low unemployment rate etc. Salaries during qualificaton move up very quickly - probably in final year prior to qualification you would expect to earn 45k. There's no reason for having built up debt to qualify - first year trainee would get 21k. Both property prices and rent costs were on the floor back in 2012.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942017#Comment_119942017

Yes but there are Central Bank rules. It would not be inconceivable that after say, 4 years of college, and 4 years of a training contract paying rent and living (for example) in Dublin, that you might not have a large deposit saved. If you were aiming to buy a house in a more "middle class" area, then you might be saving your pennies for a few years more trying to hit a moving target.

sonyvision

It's my primary residence with the wife. The value of the house will do up and down is irrelevant over 50 years living here. However the thoughts of borrowing a large sum of money that could have been 50k or 100k less if I waited 12 months is difficult.

I understand the trainee wage. I finished college in 2012 as a 22 year old grad with no job!. First job was in 2013 as a trainee in Tip earing 18,500 I got a 2.2 grade so no big 4 for me.

2015 offered a job in Dublin on 28k

2016 bump to 32k

2017 job change to 40k

2018 Qualified 55k, every year after that it was a promotion, role change bonus etc all uplifts of 10% or more. An accountant isn't a bad job if you are in the right field. With remote working it's possible to get a London based budget role while still living in Ireland.

If I wasn't settled in Dublin I would have an unbelievable home anywhere in the country and still be on the same salary. I'm never in the office (Dublin). I'm often on daft looking at houses close to my parents. If house prices are depressed but my capacity to borrow is not impacted I'll be really considering buying a property by my parents.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941920#Comment_119941920

Why do you think there's nothing to rent? There's a huge shortage. Everyone in their 20s still shares houses. Even finding a room to rent is very difficult. When did you last have to look? Do you expect couples in their early 30s to share a house?

Do you just willfully ignore the facts that houses and renting is more expensive now than ever before, and much less available? The Celtic tiger had a higher house price to income ratio but rent was much cheaper.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940551#Comment_119940551

€22,500 in 2009 for Big4 audit trainee

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942413#Comment_119942413

Ok what was it once you passed your fae’s?

I started in 2003/4 where starting salaries were higher but the point remains it’s over 40k very quickly and I didn’t know anyone that was in debt coming out of their training contract.

combat14

UK house prices fall more sharply after mortgage costs jump

UK house prices are falling more sharply than expected at the quickest pace since the start of the pandemic after a jump in borrowing costs quelled demand, Nationwide Building Society said.

https://m.independent.ie/business/world/uk-house-prices-fall-more-sharply-after-mortgage-costs-jump-42187468.html

will be interesting to see of ECB ongoing round of interest rate rises has any affect on demand here next year

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942357#Comment_119942357

We all know why there is a dire shortage of places to rent; we're just not supposed to tell the Emperor that he's in the nip.

Balluba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943033#Comment_119943033

Has any potential buyer got evidence that prices are softening in Ireland?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942889#Comment_119942889

If you started in 2003/2004 then it is likely that you were in third level at the time of genuine free fees. Free fees was brought in in or around 1997 and for the first few years it was actually free. Later on they started bringing them in by the back door as other fees. Probably around the mid 2000's but I am open to correction. They were still small compared to what other countries pay for education but I'd imagine that they'd have been a bit of a burden on some. AS I mentioned previously on thread, I know someone who finished college around the time of the crash here with multiples of 5 figure debt due to credit which had been thrown at them by the Bank. I think their interest rate was over 10%. I seem to recall them showing me the letters at the time and initial loans had been lower rates but the bank kept offering to roll them over into newer rates at progressively higher interest. There would have been a genuine argument to have that loan thrown out due to predatory lending but I don't think any such guidelines would have been in place. That person started a part time casual role on not much more than minimum wage. The interest on that loan alone would have been a burden

sonyvision above has very generously shared their actual experience. They finished college in 2012 but didn't hit 40k until 2017. Fair play to them because they persevered. The issue you don't see is that you are assuming your experience in 2003 was transferable to someone 10 years later. It wasn't. That's precisely the point people are making. In 2003 you were making X. 10 years later people were making less despite the CPI having increased . You can check the CSO CPI calculator at the link below. It says that a basket that cost 100 Euro in November 2003 would have cost the 2013 trainee on lower nominal wages than you, 117.26 Euro.

https://visual.cso.ie/?body=entity/cpicalculator

It is a common thing that people do not acknowledge actual material advantages they had, instead attributing success wholly to their own efforts or decisions. I'm not saying you didn't work hard or whatever. I'm just pointing out that you have to objectively recognise that you were in a better position starting of in 2003 that you would have been in 2013.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944241#Comment_119944241

The person whose experience is you shared didn’t train at a big 4 so it’s not relevant to the discussion we were having.

I know people who started in 2013 (I have hired them since) and their earnings are at a higher level than mine were at their age and level of pqe.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944265#Comment_119944265

Which person? It may surprise you to learn but I actually know more than one person.

One did indeed start training in the big 4 soon after the crash. All was rosy when they sorted out their traineeship but by the time September (or whenever they started) rolled around, the salaries had been cut. And I think the normal bump up into second year was also either done away with or else greatly reduced.

Another different person that I know left college around that time with a fairly large debt hanging over them. They ended up getting into the public sector after about 2 years. They had to go through the panel process and it took a while waiting on panels to open up and then later to be called. They started on the new payscale. Second person didn't qualify for a grant as far as I am aware and paid for their own expenses through college. That example was used to illustrate that some people can indeed have debt when they graduate. Even if they don't subsequently train to be accountants. There is more to life than transcribing receipts into accountancy packages.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944301#Comment_119944301

You referenced Sony vision , directly.

And normal bump aside once they passed their exams their salary increased and if it didn’t there was still lots of places paying market rates in 2011 - 2014 I moved jobs twice in that period, once forced because my employer was in receivership.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944313#Comment_119944313

The person who was originally criticised on thread - which started this off - was ACCA. I'm not an accountant but my understanding is that if you go to big 4, you're ACA?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944331#Comment_119944331

Not necessarily any more actually but in the majority of cases you would be.

anyway I didn’t criticise them but neither would o be interested in hearing any one who qualified out of a big 4 plead the poor mouth.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944344#Comment_119944344

It's not pleading the poor mouth. sonyvision seems to be sorted but if they said that they still didn't have a house, I wouldn't criticise them for it. I could easily understand a situation where they had some debts to pay off while training, qualified in 2018 and decided to save for a year or two for a deposit to buy in a nice location and then been caught chasing a moving target between covid and other events.

pc7

Ah lads can we get back to housing please, enough of the accountancy chat.

I'm selling up, sale fell through, have a viewing today so hope to get a bite, will be interesting to see if offers come in and if they do if lower than sale agreed previous price which was above asking. Will keep the thread posted.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944376#Comment_119944376

The relevance to the thread is that if you have people who have been working for years in what was traditionally understood to be a well-off profession, but they are still living at home with a parents because they can't afford a house, then it is a good indication that something is going to have to give!

I would take it as relevant information, rather than dismissing it as being caused by some imagined penchant for avocados by that individual.

pc7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944395#Comment_119944395

But its going on pages now, all the points have been made, you will all never agree to disagree so around we go, all the while the thread is derailed for those of us with an actual interest in the current 'softening house market'. That has nothing to do with buying if an accountant 10 years back.

tigger123

How one specific profession is faring now, versus how it has fared in previous years, is not relevant to the housing market. You can't infer anything from it.

Please, please, please give it a rest.

Donald Trump

That's fine. If ye can't understand the relevance ye can continue on; The market is perfectly rational and sustainable and will onto continue to go up indefinitely. Any point to the contrary is simply a manifestation of over-indulgence on avocados

(The only reason that that particular point went on so long is that facts were pointed out, then disputed, then evidence for said facts was given.)

FedoraTheAura

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944030#Comment_119944030

Currently bidding on an apartment in Dublin.

Bid on it previously in August and it went sale agreed nearly 10% over the asking price. Sale fell through and it’s back on the market. It was quiet the first couple of weeks for offers and now is back up to what it sold for in August.

It’s bizarre as a much nicer apartment sold in the same block for less just last month.

I also just got a call from my mortgage broker this morning, he’s been absolutely amazing at every stage so far. He said I should start going through the application forms again so he can look as soon as January hits with the 4x lending rule change. He said I should be able to get offers from more banks than previously too. It’s been nice to hear someone upbeat about it all as it’s extremely bleak out there.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944582#Comment_119944582

you are the one still dragging it on

have you found a job yet to distract you?

gaming_needs90

100% wishful thinking here but I wonder if there is element of a rush to go sale agreed on properties before the end of the year? My thinking is to get ahead of the CB lending limit increase.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942357#Comment_119942357

No I do not expect couple in there thirties to share rooms. However if occupancies rates have changed over 40years it impacts supply. It impacts it worse if the population is exponential increasing

But people comparing supply and it availability 30+years ago with now are not comparing like for like.

When you add reduced occupancies allow for people renting longer( all through college and longer single Iives) then of course it going to need a much larger supply of rental property. Somebody have to supply it. Maybe the good Fairy can wave her magic wand

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945588#Comment_119945588

Ive been in the Mandalay Bay and the MGM grand. Both fantastic hotels. What are your own thoughts on this one? How will it effect the housing market in Ireland? Or how will it even effect Blanch.

IWW2900

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945588#Comment_119945588

People have no idea whats coming.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945528#Comment_119945528

God forbid people want higher living standards than the economic backwater the was Ireland 30+ years ago