Leaving the Civil Service

laoisgem

Hi,

I'm just wondering about peoples opinions about leaving the CS. I keep hearing how lucky I am to be in the CS but tbh it's really grating on me. What are peoples thoughts? Is the security worth it? I'm taking the Easter off with AL and also thinking of taking summer off as Carer's leave but part of me is saying take the 2 years on Carer's leave but I think I'd loose my mind not working.

NickNickleby

Have you considered applying for the "mobility" scheme, assuming it's still open?

Although I suspect you might be in Portlaoise, so there may not be too many options locally.

I can understand if you need to be somewhat circumspect. However, if you're leaving because you're unhappy with something, why not grab the bull by the horns and try to turn things around in your current environment, being assertive as necessary, without going over the top. Your get out of jail card is your own guts, you're obviously not afraid to walk. Use that to bolster your confidence in your negotiations.

I've always been a "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" type of person, which probably shows here.

Anyway, Good luck!

BattleCorp

Big ass recession on the way. I left the private sector seven months ago and entered the Public Sector because I could see it coming so I'd recommend you stick it out.

If you've worked in the CS all your life, I think you'd be shocked at how the private sector works.

TuamJ

I wouldn't be just sitting at home whether you're on AL or carer's leave, I'd be using that time to look for a job. Assuming you're a clerical officer outside Dublin and relatively young, I don't think you're mad to be considering your alternatives. I have some friends and family who are COs outside Dublin so I know some of the challenges they face, especially if they want to stay where they are and aren't willing to move. I'd also recommend writing down what is grating on you. No point going from the frying pan to the fire. I know someone who was sick of their 40k call center job but ended up on the phones collecting debt for Revenue on 25K! Write down what exactly is grating on you. What aspects of the job do you hate, what aspects can you tolerate, and what aspects do you actually enjoy. See what stands out, is it the work itself, is it your supervisors, is it the atmosphere... That will give you some idea of where to go next. You might need to study while staying in the CS, maybe you could get exposure to another industry in the evening or weekends and keep the job or maybe it's time to start interviewing and get somewhere else.

What I will repeat though and I hope this doesn't sound too harsh. If your mindset is civil service or staying home on some sort of leave you will be chewed up and spat out in the private sector jobs that pay enough to make leaving the CS worth it. If your recent work history is civil service and going on leave from it that will also be a big red flag to private companies.

So, I think more than looking to leave or sitting at home with the decision (stay or go) looming over you it would do you better to sit down and explore your options. Life is too short to be stuck in a job you hate. It's also unwise to leave secure employment without any plan or other job lined up.

Avenger2020

Hi.

I am being bullied in work in the Civil Service and cannot stand my unit anymore. It is affecting my confidence and my sanity. I need to get out. The thing is I’m only 1 year 8 months in the AO grade.

How do I get out or get a transfer outside of Dublin or even anywhere at this stage. It needs to be outside of Dublin as I am not paying over half my salary for this kind of carry on which is rampant in the Civil Service.

AyeGer

If you are not happy there definitely leave. There are many other options out there to make a living.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032878#Comment_119032878

Start looking for a new job in the private sector or public sector. You won't get a transfer outside of Dublin any time soon .

Absolute Zero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032878#Comment_119032878

If it is renting that is keeping you down in Dublin you might find that renting costs outside are nearly as bad. Best thing to do is to keep an eye on public jobs.ie and apply for anything that interests you. As what other posters have said, maybe you're better moving private sector and possibly seeing if that will allow you to stay in Dublin and have access to more jobs.

Avenger2020

Civil Service - managers (AP and higher) can work from home but others cannot. Shocking what is going on.

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032878#Comment_119032878

You'll be eligible for mobility in a couple of months won't you?

Where are APs and higher getting WFM but staff can't BTW - that's mad stuff?

Avenger2020

Its one of the central departments. Dunno how much I can say on here. Happy to speak to media anonymously

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357476#Comment_119357476

There are correct ways of doing things.

Have you exhausted the internal grievance procedure yet?

Avenger2020

My understanding of the internal grievance procedures in the CS is that higher management backs their “boys” i.e other higher management. I have been advised not to go down that route as I would get a “reputation of a complainer” in the CS.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358776#Comment_119358776

Have you gone to the union? Seems the best port of call imo

tamara25

Avenger, what about taking a career break while trying out another job? That way you won’t lose out.. I work in the civil service also & it’s unbelievable what is going on. People are milking wfh big time. I’m not able to do it as my job is based in the office mostly. I hate where I am also, have applied for a transfer to another section. Just hanging in there waiting for it to come through

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374142#Comment_119374142

Thanks Tamara for your honesty. It is unbelievable what’s going on. Irish people like to trust authority and the Civil Service but it is beyond shocking. In my case, Im talking about managers even taking decisions that openly delay projects significantly just because they’re slightly in convenienced. I wont go into it here. CS is definitely not a growth institution unless you know someone or get on with the gang. You want to change something or speed up change you better watch out.

I think I will try a career break though. Any ideas? My manager is monitoring me minutely to catch every single reason to give me a unsatisfactory review. One single lateness and it is written officially even to HR. I don’t know whose toes I stepped on but I haveno career in the CS anymore. I need quick change of department. Would be great if bullying was a reason to change Department quickly - we’d all be able to move probably then though!

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361709#Comment_119361709

The union isn’t what it used to be. It needs resources tbh. I can list plenty of examples of where it feel short in recent years. Hence, why most departments aren’t listening to it as much as before.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329251#Comment_119329251

That’s just not true. I don’t know where you are working but in my Department all grades have the opportunity to work from home, apart from in specific sections where it wouldn’t e feasible. It’s certainly not grade based. The Civil Service is a big place, so don’t assume everything is the same in every Department/ office.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391099#Comment_119391099

It is true in my department. 100%. Im homeless at the moment. My boss doesn’t care yet when she needs to mind kids at home she works from home. Makes me sick. If it’s happening in one department people should know.

Avenger2020

I have proof that this horrible management is going on and Im happy to speak to media if anyone has any contacts. There are more serious issues than what I’ve mentioned online. It pertains to seriously bad management of public funds and Human Resources also. Its as if management are comfortable going millions over budget then they find any excuse to delay working further eg sitting on interview boards or anything but the job itself. The whole thing is a joke. Also how can you be working from home full-time yet I have to go in despite the role being wfh for the last two years? Has the CS thought about this at all over the last two years?? Yes manager no manager and f the public manager. I ll be so glad when I find a job so I can leave this place.

Kimbot

Avenger, as a Civil Servant even speaking to the media is a very bad idea. You signed the state secret act and that will come back and bite you if your ever found out.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392694#Comment_119392694

There is the right way and the wrong way to raise issues. Going to the media without first raising a grievance with HR is the wrong way to do things. There are processes to be followed. You'll be ripped apart if you go to the media without first exhausing the internal grievance procedure.

My advice is to go to HR. Raise a grievance and push that process. Try to get union backing for your grievance too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392649#Comment_119392649

You sound like you've a lot going on. My advice is to sort out your homeless issue first. Then worry about work. And forget about going to the media. Raise your internal grievance first.

Avenger2020

Thanks Kimbot and Battlecorp for your advice which I will folllow. It seems sickening though that CS bullies know they have the State Secrets act we all signed preventing people from speaking out when there is bullying and horrendous project management going on behind closed doors. And may I say it is most definitely bullying in my case. How many more victims are silenced by the State Secrets Act and Senior management refusing to act because there is no interest for them to standing up to this behaviour so in the end Bullies can and will rule the roost in the CS.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119403521#Comment_119403521

Well to be fair if you just went to share a personal story of alleged bulling that wouldn't count as "official state information". Sharing documents and the like could well be though. If it's systemic maybe the protected disclosure route might be an option?

PinkSpark

I’m not sure if this will really help but I left the CS due to bad bullying. The bully had a reputation for it in there and had many complaints against them and a high turnover of staff but even after getting the courage to speak up I was the one that ended up being treated like I was wrong for saying anything at all and nothing was ever done about it. The best thing I ever did was get out of there. If it’s affecting your mental health my advice is get out….no job is worth taking a toll on your health and a lot of private sector jobs are starting to do the same ‘perks’ now like flexi time.

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392649#Comment_119392649

If your homeless would it not be a bonus to get into the office for heat and shelter?

No point in working from a cardboard box with no electricity in it, no wonder the management don't want you wfh.

Seens to me that they have your best interests at heart bringing you into work for shelter.

HartsHat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032878#Comment_119032878

How do you know it's rampant if you're not even there 2 years?

Why not seek an internal transfer to a different unit? Happens all the time and shouldn't be an issue.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418013#Comment_119418013

Oh sure

like I can sleep in the office!! The problem is rent in Dublin dear and the CS don’t even realise it as most of them have property in Dublin themselves. No wonder the country is the way it is with comments like that.

i can rent a two bed in Sligo with a downstairs office for half the price of an small one bed apartment in Dublin!! Facts. If the CS was ever serious about cutting costs they would have implemented decentralisation and cut the salaries of the fat cats.

Dodge

Avenger, just judging by your posts here, the civil service and indeed any large organisation with serious career prospects isn’t for you

You’re acting like a child here. Between talking about your job at less than two years and the union ‘isn’t what it used to be’, you either need to grow up or leave

”Fat cats!” Jesus Christ…

Avenger2020

Because I have heard testimonies from fellow CSs.

Because I don’t believe the victim should have to move and learn an entirely new role in an institution that, quite frankly, will question why I was moved in the first place. “Oh she’s a complainer” “Be careful with her she’ll report you to HR” “Don’t give her big projects she had a problem with her last manager” “Difficult to work with she had to be moved last time, think it was her manager that moved her” etc Ive heard it all here.

laoisgem

AH FFS your either available to work or your not

Alonzo Mosley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429375#Comment_119429375

This has to be a wind up .....

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429375#Comment_119429375

To be fair to your bosses or as you refer to them as "the fat cats" they definitely have their finger on the pulse.

A few posts from you on this thread had shown that.

Getoffmytrain

The best thing to do if you're being bullied is to write everything down and go to a solicitor.

You should make a complaint but Civil service HR treat bullying as a trivial matter; the best they'll do is move you to a new section.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429346#Comment_119429346

I make no apologies for being blunt here but I don't think you are in the right mindframe for work of any kind judging by your posts.

Have you thought about going out on sick leave for a while to sort a few things out with yourself and your living situation etc. and then maybe go back to work when you are in a better frame of mind?

Avenger2020

This is horrific. I come to ask for advise about leaving the Civil Service due to bullying at work. Not just quitting and going broke. I have a child to feed. I get told I am not in the right mind frame and should be on sick leave and that it is all a “wind up”. I hope you’re happy with yourselves.

shows how much this country cares about mental health and bullying’s impact on it.

I have been seriously defamed at work in the CS and bullied by management. I have several other Civil Servants confine in me that the same happened to them. They never spoke out. I did here. Look what is happening.

the “fat cats” in the CS make the papers weekly when they discuss CS salaries. Read a newspaper.

This entire thread shows that she who speaks out about bullying will only be bullied more! Down to every last detail in what I have said and the bully will be applauded!!! Oh life. Metoo is over. I feel sorry for anyone honestly trying to make a living. Horrific. I hope you’re happy with yourselves. Saying I’m sick. Horrific. Shows the CS for what it is to the core.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430522#Comment_119430522

fwiw I’m not a civil servant. It’s weird you assume everyone trying to give you advise you won’t take is

BattleCorp

You are not just complaining/talking about being bullied.

You are complaining that your bosses can work from home. You are complaining that they do so when they have children to mind. You are complaining if they own property near where they work. You are calling them fat cats. You are saying none of them care that you are homeless. None of this is anything to do with bullying. What other people have or have not is nothing to do with you and your situation.

You seem very stressed judging from your posts. And that's fine. We all get stressed at times. And sometimes people need a break from things to be able to sort out the stress. I've a good friend who took two months off because he was stressed. Made him up so it did. If you want to things to get better you need to sort yourself out first. Sort out your stress, sort out your housing situation etc. and then worry about work.

Avenger2020

I would like to apologise to the public here that I did not go into the details of my bullying publicly here on this public forum. Lets talk about me and my experience here openly then. Lets cross examine me. Ask me what you want. What I was wearing. How I behaved.

Facts are I was yelled appalling abuse in front of colleagues. All my work equipment was stollen from me so I couldn’t work. I was slapped on the back of my head, throw out of my office and told he never wanted to see again when a deadline was approaching so Id miss the deadline. Threw papers and books at me as I was leaving. Consistently saying I was useless. Saying people below my grade could do my work. For months prior to that he had been gaslighting me and removing me from projects. Taking my work and giving it to my Same grade equivalent so it looked like he did it. Leaving me out of team meetings so I looked completely stupid. I asked for his help he wouldn’t give it. After, he would cc’ everyone on the email that he refused to clear and say publicly i made s mistake. If I brainstormed during meetings and offer innovative suggestions he would laugh and cut me off. When I finally qualified as an accountant he snapped. I got better results than him. I dunno. But I am thankful that for that day he threw me out violently as it woke me up. He now has his managerial mates constantly monitoring me if i make the slightest error I get pulled. U go up against one of these guys u go up against them all. He took a dislike to me. I dunno why. Everyday I ask myself why. He made me feel completely worthless with the words he said. Even publicly in front of colleagues. How he would never help, took my computer screen even so I couldn’t work. Constantly saying im useless. When prior to that I have written proof I was excelling. Your man was new he didn’t know the system and can’t handle pressure. Pity its my career that got in his way. All the badmouthing about me. At least thankfully the pmds isn’t just between managers anymore. Someone told me before it used to stay between managers and they could say anything they wanted without proof.

opening a bullying case, people said to me that no one will win out of it. I now see thats true. I relive absolutely every minute detail publicly and I have to go into it again in much more details showing emails and all to HR. My advice if you’re being bullied don’t speak out.

Kimbot

Woah aveneger, if he did slap you that is assault and is a very serious matter so I would go to a solicitor if I were you.

Dodge

Clearly spoofing.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431498#Comment_119431498

So, after all that you still haven't put in a complaint to HR? Really?

Alonzo Mosley

FFS a wind up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430522#Comment_119430522

Is there anywhere you go where you aren't bullied, out of interest?

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431498#Comment_119431498

How long has this been going on ?

You should start by recording everything . Write everything down . You have to prove that what is going on is persistent. Only when you have a record indicating inappropriate behaviour against you over a prolonged period of time should you consider a solicitor. Get a solicitor that is not connected in any way to your employment .

Most colleagues won’t support you when it comes down to it as most employees want a quiet life .Most are up to their tits in debt and won’t put their future prospects in jeopardy . Most will support the aggressor . Seen it happen repeatedly .

If you have access to one , become a member of a trade union . Become an active member and let it be known that you are involved.

Go to the media as a last resort . Aside from it probably being against your terms of employment , there are only a few people who you could rely on to give your opinion a fair reporting. Perhaps only one or two in the entire industry.

Best of luck

caviardreams

60 complaints of bullying in the Civil service over the past few years - some departments seem hit more than others - maybe this might help you Avenger

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sixty-complaints-of-bullying-and-sexual-harassment-made-in-state-departments-1.4867612

Avenger2020

Thanks caviardreams. That article illustrates my point exactly:

“It found that 7.9 per cent of workers had been bullied. The figure for public sector workers was higher, 10.5 per cent of these workers reported being bullied, compared to 6.9 per cent of private sector workers.”

This study also showed that only 20 per cent of those affected by bullying used a grievance procedure at their place of work, said Ms Connolly.

The sad fact is that most people I know in here who had to deal with bullying and bad management simply left on career break, as was suggested by a previous poster. This would mean that figures are probably way higher than that.

Furthermore, it is hard to make a workplace grievance when management tend to stick together against staff.

"the last comprehensive study of all Irish workers took place in 2007"

that's what you're quoting, i think it relevant to be clear

we arent informed if this was self-reported or actual recorded findings of bullying

we are given no stats as to how many of the 60 complaints were upheld

my experience with actual bullying is that it happens across grades and far from always from manager to staff

actual bullying from a manager ive seen tends to be down to communication style that isnt addressed and the best way to do this is formal, evidenced complaints handled throught the process.

my experience with bullying -complaints+(observed, ive neither made nor had any formal nor informal ever made against me) is that they do tend to come from people who dont seem to be able to take instruction from their manager, who often dont want to follow through because they arent very sure of their case and who, when they see the procedures to be followed decide they cannot make the accusation stick.

if your case is anything like what you describe you should go the formal route- otherwise you're just having a vent and you really shouldnt pretend otherwise.

hr are there to see policy enacted and procedures followed on all sides and to ensure that the business continues to function, not to drive complaints that from the outside are usually a case of both parties failing to communicate brilliantly with each other.

an accusation of bullying is a serious thing to be taken seriously and its correct and fair that its as thorough and clinical a process as eg disciplining somone for poor performance

kyote00

If you were assaulted it is a criminal matter. Straight to the Garda and get a good solicitor . From your posts, it seems clear cut as you explain it. Solicitor will probably work pro bono on the basis of payout if you take a civil case.

Slapping some one is not bullying, it’s assault.

if it was me and someone slapped me on the back on the head….I would be ensuring the full extent of the criminal and civil law played out.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Construction workers would like to say hello.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436558#Comment_119436558

Seriously, how are things supposed to improve if only 1 in 5 people can be bothered to engage in the grievance procedure?

If you are being bullied, report it. How else will it get fixed?