Wedding venue cancelled

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001822#Comment_119001822

I'd assume it is written in the contract:

If you (b&g) break the contract (i.e. cancel) you must pay us (hotel) in full

If we (hotel) break the contract (i.e. cancel) we must refund you in full

Seems to me the hotel has adhered to the terms of the contract. Nothing more, nothing less.

Complete bummer for the b&g I totally get that. But pursing the hotel for costs....ehhhh, good luck with that

MrMusician18

The problem here is that these contracts are written by the hotels so they are all very one sided. If COVID and Ukraine has taught us anything is that couples need to be willing to insert clauses into contracts to protect themselves.

They also need to take out wedding insurance.

Shelflife

Seeing as we are all working in the dark on the actual contract we are all making assumptions.

I would assume that there are conditions included under what circumstances the hotel can cancel, id imagine that the usual things are there such as the venue being incapable or unsafe to use as a result of fire, flooding acts of god etc.

I would seriously doubt that there is a clause in it that allows the hotel to cancel because they can make more money using the venue for something else.

Id definitely see a solicitor to see what my options are.

Dempo1

I'm familiar with wedding, conference , special events contracts and it is correct to say there are clauses included that would allow for exceptional circumstances.

However if an event has to be cancelled due to a booking issue, which is essentially what facilitating a group booking after a wedding or event had been booked, with a confirmation is, the Hotel is quite likely to be liable for any additional costs incurred by those who booked and now have to make alternative arrangements notwithstanding the inconvenience caused.

Simply using emergency accommodation as an excuse to cancel an event is I believe on shaky ground. Obviously if government brought in emergency powers that's a different kettle of fish but I'm not aware they did when it comes to housing anyone. A Hotel taking in refugees is quite simply a commercial decision, they are not being forced and are under no legal obligations that I'm aware of. I'm not making any judgement on such decisions.

Cancellation of a wedding as laid out by OP is essentially a breach of contract and quite simply unacceptable. In essence OP probably won't want to proceed but I'd absolutely be seeking legal advice and be pursuing any additional costs possibly incurred as a result of having to change venues.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005370#Comment_119005370

Liable under what legislation?

The SoGaSS Act allows for refund as a remedy where a service is not provided, where does it say that the service provider is liable for a contact between the consumer and another service provider? The op is not at a loss on the cancelled contract as the deposit has been returned in full.

Link please.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005748#Comment_119005748

Breach of contract, perhaps you know little about having a wedding cancelled and having to rearrange. Notwithstanding the difficulty in sourcing a new venue, location and on a budget already planned there is bound to be losses by the mere fact of upheaval, inconvenience and likely higher costs in sourcing a new venue.

There is no link required for common sense.

Put simply, Hotels behaving this way are making commercial decisions, motivated primarily for profit, nothing more, nothing less.

MakersMark

SCC for the 2k difference.

Blatant profiteering by the hotel.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005875#Comment_119005875

It absolutely is and people may have missed the latest deal Government did with the city west hotel. Not only have they reverted solely to Refugee accommodation and processing, the deal is for two year and, this the important bit.

"HOTEL HAS ALSO BEEN GIVEN INDEMNITY AGAINST LOSS "

I suspect partially to cover it again loss through possible claims for event cancellations, even poor FF have to find a new venue for their Ardfheis, God bless them.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005861#Comment_119005861

Again, you are confusing moral with legal.

I agree with you, morally the hotel should compensate the op, legally they do not have to. They have refunded the full amount paid, the op is not at a loss on the contract with the hotel, and that is what he/she would be taking legal action about. The contract with the new hotel is completely separate and the old hotel has no liability for this.

If you want to say that you are familiar with wedding contracts and the hotel is quite likely liable for the cost difference, then you need to show what you are basing that on, “common sense” does not equate to legal entitlement.

So, if you are saying your opinion is based only on common sense, and not consumer legislation, please say so. As I posted earlier, the SoGaSS Act sets out the remedies available when a service is not provided, refund is one of them, the op received a full refund, he/she is not at a loss on that contract.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005875#Comment_119005875

Nice idea but the SCC wouldn't entertain it. They will only deal on the bases of a refund and don't give anything for expenses.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005293#Comment_119005293

What legal premise are you basing this on? What is your legal basis for proposing legal remedy over and above refund?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005959#Comment_119005959

No I'm basing my opinion on experience and can assure you I've dealt with cases were events were cancelled due to errors on behalf of the hotel. Whilst the venue could argue no technical error took place , by the very nature of their actions, namely taking another booking in preference for a booking already in place and confirmed by way of a contract, they've acted negligently causing loss and inconvenience.

I personally dealt with 100's of weddings over a long career, these events don't only involve an initial contract, there's constant communication, Tweaking, adding requirements etc .

Whilst no legal action is assured of success, I believe OP and anyone affected by these actions have very strong cases which would likely be resolved through settlement.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006021#Comment_119006021

So in your experience, what legislation was relied on?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006062#Comment_119006062

There is no legislation relevant, these would be contractual disputes, not at all sure why you thing legislation is required to sue some someone or a company for breach of contract.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006086#Comment_119006086

Actually there is, it’s the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, and that lays out the remedies available to the supplier/consumer, and one of those is refund. If you want to bring a legal action, of course you need relevant legislation.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/covid-19/consumer-contracts/

In general people will simply have to get used to the idea of having smaller weddings. Many people, such as myself, absolutely dread big, sometimes tacky, weddings. I would do anything to get out of such an occasion. On the other hand I do like smaller more intimate occasions with more imaginative food & ambience rather than the ubiquitous beef or salmon, or the dreaded rubber chicken. Smaller venues will do well if people are prepared to keep weddings as moderate in numbers as possible.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006109#Comment_119006109

Your tying yourself up in knots with this fixation on legislation. There is no legislation required if a person decides to sue someone in the circuit or high court, there's literally 100's of contractual disputes in the courts annually. It's a Judge that determines if a case has been successful or otherwise. Their decision may refer to legislation or an interpretation of it or perhaps legal precedent .

There is absolutely no legislation stopping an individual or indeed company suing for what they may deem is a breach of contract .

Anyway, my opinion has been shared, people can agree or disagree but I'm not running around in circles on the matter.

Incidently the matter being referred to has absolutely nothing to do with Covid or indeed emergency health measures which you must know have now ended.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006201#Comment_119006201

Jesus wept, it’s covered by consumer legislation. The page I linked said it ALSO gives advice on Covid cancellations. The mere fact that there is a specific section on booking weddings/events on the CCPC site should be a clear indication that we are talking about a consumer contract.

How could you possibly be involved in wedding bookings and not understand that the couple getting married are consumers booking a service from a service provider?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006248#Comment_119006248

This has absolutely nothing to do with covid cancellations , have you actually read the OP.

I'm not sure what part of a person's entitlement to sue for breach of contract your not getting.

I'm simply saying there is nothing whatsoever stopping OP or any couple taking legal action under contractual law for possible breach of contract amongst other things , which is exactly what occurs when a hotel cancels a written contract for the reasons being given. I equally said there's no assurance of success but there would be grounds to pursue a case .

Are you seriously saying OP or others just suck it up . The courts are partly in existence to remedy disputes between parties wether you accept it or not, OP would have grounds to pursue this and likely succeed by way of settlement.

That's it, I've nothing more to add or say , I've offered an opinion, you disagree but my god be coherent.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006291#Comment_119006291

Ok, I’m going to quote the first paragraph of that link I provided:

”In this section you will find general information on consumer contracts, including deposits and cancellations. We also give you information on the most common questions we are currently receiving from consumers in relation to contracts as a result of COVID-19.”

Now, most will understand the implication of the words “we also give”, lest you don’t, it means in addition to general information on contracts which is non Covid related, eg, the op’s situation.

I’m not getting why a consumer issue is not covered by consumer law according to you, or why you think legislation would not be relevant in a legal dispute, that’s an oxymoron.

The remedy is provided in consumer legislation, a refund is one of them, making up the difference in cost is not.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/2021/04/09/faq-friday-wedding-cancellations-deposit-refunds/

The fact that weddings are covered in detail on the site is a clear indication that it is a consumer contract bound by consumer law, and the relevant legislation states the remedies available, it does not state there is an entitlement for expenses the consumer incurs which are independent of the contract or which the service provider has no control over.

TooTired123

Please please please! If anyone is planning or knows anyone who is planning to book a hotel or any other venue for a standard sized Irish wedding can you remember that the hotel is a business that has the objective of making a profit.

They are selling something that they want you to buy.

Part of the sales technique is to make you think that they too are all caught up in the excitement and romance of your big day.

They’re not.

There’s nothing immoral or unfair about this. It’s just business.

When the wedding manager presents you with the contact to sign, take it home and ask someone you trust but who isn’t necessarily immediately involved with your romance to read all the small print especially before you sign it and date it and hand over your deposit.

That is all.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006314#Comment_119006314

But its not consumer law because a contract has been signed. Consumer law has been satisfied, the old here's you money back aren't we great for giving you your money back now go away. However a contract was signed so it's down to whatever is in the contract.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006835#Comment_119006835

If you read the link I posted on consumer contracts, they can be verbal or written. Consumer law is contract law, but there is specific legislation governing consumer law, the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980. This legislation provides additional rights which are not contained in standard contract law and are specific to consumer purchases of goods and services. A few posters have said the op should go to the Small Claims Court, that Court deals with consumer disputes and adjudicates based on the 1980 Act.

You are correct, it is down to what was agreed in the contract, but if the contract omits to mention compensation if the hotel cancels, then the legislation the consumer has to rely on during any legal action, is the applicable consumer legislation, which is the SoGaSS Act, and that sets out refund as a remedy and does not provide for expenses unrelated to the contract for services in dispute.

I’m not sure I can explain this more simply or provide any more relevant links than I already have. The links already provided go into detail about weddings so it is clear that it is a consumer agreement, the first link I provided is literally about consumer contracts.

Shelflife

So Dav010, what you’re saying is that a hotel could cancel your wedding with a week to go because they got a better offer and that the only recourse open to you is to get your deposit back ?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119007034#Comment_119007034

What I am saying is that you would have to rely on the related consumer legislation to exercise your legal rights.

Shelflife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119007065#Comment_119007065

Of course, but you are not limited to just what the relevant legislation entitles you to.

If the hotel fails to fulfil their side of the contract because they want to make more money else where and as a result you incur extra costs and extra work you are perfectly entitled to seek compensation for their breach of contract.

Otherwise what's the point in having a contract and paying a deposit if the hotel can shaft you anytime they want without penalty.

The hotel is not cancelling the contract because there is something preventing them from fulfilling it, they are cancelling it because they chose to do so in order to make more money.

To be honest its more of a contract law issue than a consumer law issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005917#Comment_119005917

the indemnity is probably from destruction of the hotel by fire or protesting refugees. A good lot coming in from what i see are not Ukranian, and suspect will react badly when finally given their marching orders

c.p.w.g.w

Any hotel that does this should be named and shamed and black balled by all wedding vendors IMO

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119007363#Comment_119007363

No the Government indemnity is to indemnify againt loss of revenue.

Hotel would be required legally to have 3rd party public liability insurance, buildings and fire cover.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ukrainian-refugees-expected-to-be-housed-in-dublin-s-citywest-hotel-for-up-to-two-years-1.4845554

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119007347#Comment_119007347

Which brings us back around to the level of redress available under the contract legislation that would apply. How would the hotel be liable for what another hotel charges, or for the op choosing that particular hotel?