Can a Doctor Refuse to See Unvaccinated Patients (non covid related)?

androlyn

A friend of mine informed today that her family doctor (of 5 years) has now refused to see her anymore unless she gets her child vaccinated.

Her child is at the age of her first round of vaccines and my friend is not willing to get her child vaccinated because of several concerns, with not only the vaccine but of her child's current health. I don't remember us being a nation of pro & anti vax prior to covid and I was shocked to hear this. She confided in me, because she knew I was unvaccinated, not by choice, my mother never brought me as a child and when I was older I never thought "oh, I better get vaccinated" - and in all my 30 years of life, I've never had my vaccination status come into question, nor would I have ever thought about it (until covid came along), so the situation seems off to me.

Please, please, without judgement or a debate on vaccines, is her doctor within his right to refuse to see her child?

Presumably it's a private consultation? If not, then I assume that HSE would insist on the GP seeing the child.

See page 16 of this link. https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/news-and-publications/publications/information-for-doctors/guide-to-professional-conduct-and-ethics-for-registered-medical-practitioners.pdf

From the GP’s point of view it sounds like the person is taking non-medical advice on health. If the GP is recommending childhood vaccines, I can’t really see how there can be a “health reason” for them not to be taken. They’re not going to put someone’s health at risk.

If you called an electrician out and your wiring kept shorting out but you decided that you’d take advice of Billybob10384847483 on Twitter who feels that it’s because of bad wiring karma, instead of the electrician, I think they might tell you where to go to.

There are a lot of non medical people who are suddenly experts on immunology and vaccinations and topics that were previously as boring as house wiring are now highly politicised.

KieferFan69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829719#Comment_118829719

you say nonsense. It’s no business of the GP whether a child is vaccinated, or from whom parents take their advice. The doctor here sounds like he is taking a political position when political decisions are certainly not why people pay his cheques, Providing health care is the reason for that

I fear this is a very dark lane

What do you mean it’s “no business of a GP whether a child is vaccinated”

GPs have a very serious duty of care. It’s absolutely their business.

The dark lane we are going down here is paranoid conspiracy theories being accepted as fact.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829801#Comment_118829801

The GP action is closing off the route of communication. It's not a smart approach.

But the question here is whether it's legal.

jam_mac_jam

The doctor needs to protect their other patients as well, so rather than it being political it could be to protect others in the waiting room such as babies or the elderly that may be impacted by diseases like measles.

If the patient isn't going to listen to the doctors medical advise then the doctor is perfectly right that they should look for another doctor. In terms of medical advise I doubt a doctor can be compelled to take on any patient legally.

KieferFan69

sounds like some of you grew up in the times of wooden cars where the doctor and priest were always right and needed to be obeyed otherwise you were scolded. The fact this doctor refuses to see this patient is nonsense, either irrational fear or politically motivated

I would choose not to see this ignorant doctor anyway, gps are ten a penny.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238704/can-a-doctor-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients-non-covid-related

Please, please, without judgement or a debate on vaccines, is her doctor within his right to refuse to see her child?

In really simple terms - yes, a medical professional is within their right to refuse to see anyone provided they have a legitimate reason for their refusal. It doesn’t just come up in the context of vaccination, it comes up in numerous other contexts. The person in question can of course make a complaint to the Medical Council, who will assess whether there is any merit to the complaint -

https://www.healthcomplaints.ie/gp/

cruizer101

@KieferFan69 GP's are ten a penny??

You are obviously having a laugh, there is a massive shortage of GP's with many people having to look far outside their locality to find a GP that will take them on, very few are accepting new patients.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238704/can-a-doctor-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients-non-covid-related

Nobody is obligated to do business with you, be it a doctor, another professional or company. There are rules which must be applied when they do decide to do business with you and certain organisations are mandated to provided the public with certain services. If the doctor is providing services to you in his own capacity as opposed to on behalf of an agency such as the health services etc... he is free to make up his own mind whom he wants to treat. And even in cases where a professional is required to provide services, if you decide not to follow their advice, then there are also provisions allowing them to refuse to deal with you.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829782#Comment_118829782

The dark lane as you put it would be attempting to force professionals to provide services against their advice and believes, they too have rights surprising as that may seem to some people. Which simply is not going to happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829916#Comment_118829916

Actually they aren’t ten a penny. In fact there is a huge shortage of GPs in Ireland currently, people struggle in many parts of the country to find a GP Clinic which will allow them to register.

To answer the op’s question, where there is a breakdown in the GP-Patient relationship, then yes, the GP can advise the patient that they may be better suited to another Clinic. There may well be more to this than just vaccination status, from experience, anti vaxers can get very animated when health professionals try and tell them about the benefits of vaccines and some refuse to wear masks in the Clinic even though it is required. So they are invited to leave.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829916#Comment_118829916

I assume you’re being sarcastic here. GPs are ten a penny??

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238704/can-a-doctor-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients-non-covid-related

Current legislation allows for any healthcare setting to refuse admission to an unvaxxed person.

The GP has to protect the other patients him/herself and the other staff.

GPs remove patients from their “list” all the time for different reasons.

Us your friend in receipt of a medical card? If she is then she has to go to 3 other GP practices and ask to be taken on as a patient. If 3 refuse then she needs to write or email medical card and tell them the names of those that refused. Medical card will take it from there.

coylemj

OP said: Her child is at the age of her first round of vaccines and my friend is not willing to get her child vaccinated because of several concerns, with not only the vaccine but of her child's current health

Sorry, but that is just a cloud of evasive BS. Why is the child not vaccinated?

If the mother is making the decision (to not accept the vaccine) because of 'her child's current health' then it sounds like she is making a decision that is based on 'her own research' but which should be left to the medical professionals i.e. her GP. And if she is unilaterally making medical decisions on behalf of her child and against professional medical advice then then I can see why the GP is showing her the door.

She can't have it both ways. If she wants the assorted quacks and conspiracy theorists on Facebook to guide her in looking after her child's health then let her live with the consequences but I don't see why the GP should expose his other patients to the various childhood diseases that that child will bring into his waiting room.

breezy1985

Oh I just knew clicking in this would be a "new" account

hullaballoo

Whatever about the antivaxx nonsense...

When were cars ever wooden?

mondeoman72

I am a first responder. I can refuse and would not treat somebody if I was concerned for my own health.

Rule 1. We have a person needing assistance. Do not become a 2nd person needing assistance.......

Though being a 1st responder is admirable, you are not bound by the same code of ethics as a GP, and the repercussions for refusing to treat a patient are not the same.

In response to an earlier post by TooTired who stated that GPs remove patients from their lists all the time, it is actually quite rare and there must be a good reason. Patients/parents often make bad choices, but that is their right. The decision to get vaccinated is a personal one and that alone is highly unlikely to be the only reason for a GP to deny service/remove a patient from their list. GPs see sick patients all the time and would not be concerned enough about vaccination status to delist a patient, in fact GPs have reason to advise some patients against vaccination. Also, I’d appreciate the link to the specific legislation relating to GPs refusing admission to unvaccinated patients, this would seem at odds with the duty of care a GP has for their patients which of course is not contingent on vaccination status. Is it possible you are mistaking this for the requirement to wear a mask in healthcare facilities?

I don’t want to speculate on why the OPs friend was refused treatment at his/her GPs clinic, what I can say is that I share/own a Clinic with GPs and without doubt the most common cause for a patient being delisted is because they are abusive to the staff or GP, the second most common is a breakdown in the relationship to the point where trust is lost and the patient would be better served by seeking another perspective on their needs.

mondeoman72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836596#Comment_118836596

I kind of agree, and your example is understandable, but in ANY situation, the first person to be taken care of, is yourself. If for whatever reason, you do not feel safe or you feel in danger, you are perfectly entitled to not treat. One casualty is enough. Is it in the code of ethics that a patient has a bigger right to treatment than your own personal safety ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836885#Comment_118836885

I think if healthcare professionals applied that logic, it would severely limit our ability to provide care to patients. Vaccination neither gives immunity to Covid nor prevents transmission, so applying a policy to refuse care for unvaccinated would be an odd decision, I’ve never heard of it and would presume that it would be a challenge to defend if a complaint was made to the medical council.

Sleeper12

I can't leave my dogs into doggie day care, kennels etc without proof of shots. My daughter has worked in crèches where children without vacation aren't allowed to join. I don't see why doctors are any different

mondeoman72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836959#Comment_118836959

I will check with our EMTs and RGN's and let you know tomorrow. Bit late now to be texting them. I do know that all training I have done, including PHECC certifications, put safety priority for yourself as absolute number one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836991#Comment_118836991

Ask a GP, patients don’t register with EMT/RGN Clinics.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836980#Comment_118836980

You don’t see how a GP Clinic would have different policies to a dog kennel or crèche?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829782#Comment_118829782

hes taking a medical position, for his wellbeing, staff and patients..

if a GP doesn’t have full disclosure about a patient’s health he is of the option not to treat them.

mondeoman72

mondeoman72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836959#Comment_118836959

A doctor and we can refuse treatment. It is in a published document from the medical council.

https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/news-and-publications/publications/information-for-doctors/guide-to-professional-conduct-and-ethics-for-registered-medical-practitioners.pdf

Section 9 and 10 and also referred to in section 11, Emergencies and considerations of what you can SAFELY do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837050#Comment_118837050

That is not in doubt, what is in doubt is whether that can be applied to a patients vaccination status.

mondeoman72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837056#Comment_118837056

Ok. On the basis a vaccination is being refused against doctors advice.

Section 9 of referenced document.

You might also consider refusing treatment

where you believe that your patient is unlikely to co-operate or

make the lifestyle changes required to make the treatment effec-

tive.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836487#Comment_118836487

Yeah those seven year olds will kill ya

lawred2

There wouldn't be many left in the waiting room if a doctor refused to see all those that ignored his or her medical advice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837068#Comment_118837068

We seem to be heading down the road of hypotheticals here, the op says nothing about the patient receiving treatment connected to the vaccination, only that the GP allegedly refused to allow her to continue as a patient at the Clinic based on vaccination status.

I would also draw your attention to the first line of section 9 of that document.

“In exceptional circumstances you may need to consider refusing specific treatments to individual patients.”

Vaccination status would not be considered exceptional, the GP may “consider refusing specific treatments”, that is a far cry from a policy of refusing all treatment.

I’m annoyed with myself for engaging with you on this.

Eggs For Dinner

Why would you engage any professional if you are not going to follow their advice?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829849#Comment_118829849

The GP has an entire waiting room of potentially vulnerable patients. Absolutely they van make a practice decision based in the health of all their patients

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837517#Comment_118837517

Does that extend to all respiratory illness or just covid?

Maybe we should keep sick people out of waiting rooms?

Although one wonders about the logic at play here.. if this doctor is determined to only treat vaccinated patients then surely one unvaccinated child is little risk to anyone in a clinic full of vaccinated people! It's a rather anti vax position to hold if this qualified medic has little faith in the vaccine at keeping the vaccinated safe..

It's all a bit contradictory really.

Maybe it's more an ideological position that they hold.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837011#Comment_118837011

Absolutely not. Higher standards maybe but definitely not lower standards

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837517#Comment_118837517

But some of the other patients won't have had some vacvines because said vaccine wasn't invented yet when they were the age to get the vaccine.

Should the GP refuse them consultation too?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830033#Comment_118830033

Well it might seem like that for those on welfare or with a medical card. Not for the majority who have to pay

I wonder does the doctor get an anti vaccine rant everytime she sees the child and that is the reason for refusal to see until the behaviour improves of the parent. I cannot see any doctor refusing to see unvaccinated unless they have genuine health reasons. Eg a doctor eith a kidney transplant who is seeing patients at great personal risk can insist on patients get vaccinated or finding another doctor unless a life or death emergency

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837757#Comment_118837757

They are not 10 a penny for anyone anymore as you say. There was a time when doctors getting close to the maximum number they want to take on, wouldn't take on anymore medical card patients but would continue to take on a few more cash patients. Now the vast majority of GPs aren't taking any new patients at all

Donald Trump

OP needs more context anyway.

It is possible (likely?) that they mother refuses both the vaccine and the clinic's requirement of getting a PCR test done before visiting the surgery.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837774#Comment_118837774

The person thinking they are 10-a-penny might be on the medical card/welfare long term and not be aware

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836596#Comment_118836596

Have to say excellent post 👌

Dakota Dan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829931#Comment_118829931

yet the government are bringing an estimated extra 200k and giving them medical cards many that have never taken the jab but you can bet your bottom dollar they’ll be seen without question.

Ave Sodalis

How on earth do some posters manage to come into the legal discussion forum and manage to turn an unrelated thread into dole bashing.... It's bad enough in AH and CA without it spilling into other forums as well.

Dakota Dan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837043#Comment_118837043

Sure he is yet many people that have taken the vaccines have had covid so how exactly does he believe it’s for the well-being of his patients? It’s the first vaccine that fails to prevent the disease it was made for.

Dakota Dan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837079#Comment_118837079

Also as many are saying here he wants to protect his other patients even though everyone in the waiting are coughing sneezing and obviously have an ailment.

KieferFan69

In this country I have had dealings with many doctors, from some absolute gems, very kind freckled doctors, to ignoramuses who gave misdiagnosed. I wasn’t vaccinated for Covid eventually getting this illness very mild while those of the vaxxed around me were struck down with awful symptoms, but the doc said it was necessary but look at me k is full health and I did not line the pharmacy pockets meanwhile all the vaxxed became unwell - thanks but I’ll make my own decision, many gps are clueless they bend to peer pressure same as anyone else,

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837904#Comment_118837904

It's not the first vaccine that "fails to prevent the disease it was made for". There's a whole plethora of them out there that are designed to either prevent or reduce the effects of the diseases they target, such as the MMR.