State lost 10,000 Intel jobs due to planning system delays

plodder

Planning system delays and uncertainty are being cited (by the Irish Times) as part of the reason why Oranmore in Galway lost out on a massive new investment in Europe by Intel. Obviously, there are other factors involved, but I find it astonishing that the planning problem has not been tackled before now. That the Apple data centre, which was still being litigated in the courts here, long after the project was cancelled because Apple couldn't wait any longer, could still happen to any new project, must have been highlighted by the German government in support of the new "mega fab" that's going to Magdeburg.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/eu-news-2022-release.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/intel-commits-to-further-12bn-spend-in-ireland-1.4827476

rock22

Are you suggesting that Irish citizen rights should be curtailed in order to facilitate US multinationals?

Billions in investment and decent jobs and future career prospects lost, I'd be raging if I was in that part of the country.

Tow

We're they also going to build housing for the 10,000 employees in Oranmore?

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792097#Comment_118792097

jobs that we cant fill and a housing crisis

Gusser09

We have a robust planning system which operates the same for everyone.

That article reads like its lobbyist sponsored.

Gone are the days of Charlie, FF and cuddling up to FDI.

Wasn't it some crank in Wicklow that held up the Apple data centre?

These jobs are great for the economy. A data centre may not provide a huge number of onsite jobs but it sets precedent to drive further investment in the area.

People give out about Dublin getting everything, here is an example of high end jobs being lost in Galway which will bring the city to the next level.

The Leixlip, Maynooth Celbridge area has the highest level of incomes per household in the country.

Short sighted cranks, honestly. A phenomenal opportunity lost.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792077#Comment_118792077

Absolutely. We constructed these 'rights', they were hardly given to us with the Ten Commandments.

All they have done is enrich the legal profession and stymied progress.

Get rid of them.

tails_naf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792107#Comment_118792107

The 10000 people on well paid jobs can afford to pay for their own homes, just need planning to allow for that too. Surely you see the planning is the issue, not the investment?

10-10-20

Not really, OP. Oranmore was thrown in as an attractive second Irish option - but only in the "also running" category.

Realistically, investment by the EU was targeted to significantly reduce Europe's semiconductor dependence from external and possibly non-friendly states. Having all of Intel's FAB capacity on a small island which is now physically further isolated from Europe following Brexit, would have been the embodiment of small-mindedness and would have been a significant political loss within the original member states of France, Germany and the Netherlands, etc. Eggs and baskets.

Don't forget that many of the populace in Europe already confuse Ireland and the UK (common language and histories, eh!) and foresee an Eirexit as an eventuality ('the islands may as well...').

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792077#Comment_118792077

Go home Yank!

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792140#Comment_118792140

There are no homes

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792077#Comment_118792077

I think the balance is skewed too much towards individual rights against the common good in this country. People are basically encouraged to take judicial reviews, with little risk to themselves from losing. Judicial review then takes so long that projects end up being cancelled regardless of whether they had merit or not. That's not a sign of a robust planning system (for big projects at least). Part of the problem was the big mistake in sending strategic projects straight to Bord Pleanala. Everyone has a right of appeal, and the courts were the only avenue for that. That mistake is being corrected, but we need to make it clear that judicial review after you've already lost one appeal, can't be risk free and can't be allowed to get projects cancelled just by delaying the decision.

mikep

It's not just the planning either...EPA are taking years to issue licences. It's only a matter of time before a big investment is also lost because of this.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792116#Comment_118792116

We don't have the infrastructure for data centres, it would be dangerously stupid borderline lunacy to allow any more be built.

The government were warned about this in 2018, but went ahead and gave them special development status anyway.

Wanderer78

has our property problems also played a part in this?

getoutadodge

https://www.idaireland.com/newsroom/ida-ireland-welcomes-intel-announcement

How to tart up a let down.

tails_naf

That's a good question, but I'd say our property problems are in part to blame on planning also. The issue with property is there is a lack of supply. If we wanted we could supply a lot of houses on Oranmore where there are greenfield oppertunitites than you can in Dublin City centre, where the issue is different. Also the Intel jobs would not have required the govt to foot the bill for the houses, as those employees are generally paid well and can afford their own. It's not like the lads in facebook dublin are struggling for accommodation.

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792265#Comment_118792265

I agree. Some empirical evidence of this is a friend of mine declined a 80K job offer in pharma after researching the rental woes of Dublin city. Forking out 24K annually of his post tax income (circa 55 K) for a pokey one bed made no sense despite the initial attraction of the headline salary

Confused11811

The Irish state on behalf of Intel has previously tried to illegally circumvent planning and development laws. Through the IDA the Irish government overstepped it's remit on CPO's. You can be sure every time a development by Intel is purposed it'll rightly be examined to the nth degree.

I wouldn't be giving up our rights to object and bring legal recourse. People talk about giving priority to the benefit to society over the individual. Thats all fine and we'll until you are the individual and the "society" being talked about isn't your neighbors , your friends our community. Your community will actually be displaced by rising costs , the "society" spoken about is actually the general economy.

I would however fully agree that the legal system for planning (and indeed several other things) is extremely slow. It probably needs reform to deal with such complex planning projects.

But in my personal opinion we are very over reliant on such projects and other services such as local housing, schools and transportation links are often in a worse position when theses are completed.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792265#Comment_118792265

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792308#Comment_118792308

i suspect our housing issues played a significant role in this outcome, but im sure there were many reasons for it, our housing issues are now causing serious investment problems, the state needs to play a far bigger role in making sure building gets done....

mary 2021

10,000 less enslavement's !

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792077#Comment_118792077

Can Irish citizen rights not be upheld without waiting for years to progress through our legal system? In Apples case they bought the land in 2014 with a view to building the data centre by 2017. They're still wading through the Irish bureaucracy 8 years later.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792145#Comment_118792145

These are the other factors I mentioned (except Brexit, or us being confused with the UK). But, the fact is that planning issues were cited, and the problems still exist. The Apple case is still being litigated afaik, as they eventually got permission and were looking to extend it, which is normally an uncontroversial thing in our planning system, but here they are still throwing sand in the gears. This kind of litigation doesn't happen in other European countries.

Whether data centres make sense is a public policy question. It shouldn't be decided by individual objectors whose motivation could be something completely different. It made sense to allow a few to begin with. The policy could and should be reviewed then.

littlevillage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792214#Comment_118792214

Yep, bottom line is, this is a big loss..... IDA and Dept. of Enterprise have questions to answer. They are quick to toot their horn when they get a big win, I wonder will Shanahan and Varadakar explain how we dropped the ball here ?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792145#Comment_118792145

I think this moreso than any issues with planning etc is the reason that Galway was not selected.

It was only ever a outside option if everything else went wrong.

Europe needs more chip manufacturing capacity and why not put that capacity in the middle of the continent where it has easy physical connectivity to the customers.

Not in the far corner of the continent that has had it's access to the rest of the continent curtailed by Brexit because the land bridge is no longer as feasible an option as it used to be.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792384#Comment_118792384

It wasn't realistic to expect that Ireland would be the sole site for Intel's manufacturing in Europe. But, what strikes me about this announcement, is that in a few short years, Germany is going to be the centre for their latest manufacturing tech in Europe and Ireland in second place.

"Intel plans to develop two first-of-their-kind semiconductor fabs in Magdeburg, Germany, the capital of Saxony-Anhalt. Planning will start immediately, with construction expected to begin in the first half of 2023 and production planned to come online in 2027"

Two of the latest fabs in Magdeburg, with construction to start in around a year. You couldn't say "expected to start" in a year with respect to this country.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792112#Comment_118792112

It's cumbersome and far to controlling and prescriptive. It seems tailor made for those wanting to keep Ireland in stasis and to prevent change and progress. It also allows for ridiculous powers to be vested in councils that are likely illegal in the context of an EU member state - such as the discriminatory local needs nonsense which Irish people should frankly be embarrassed about.

The planning legislation is so restrictive and so overpowered, that the government itself can't get policies they consider of national importance implemented so they have had to draft legislation to override nimby people and councils who love to dictate to property owners their tastes and priorities. Councils were preventing homeowners from putting up solar panels, or restricting them to limited sizes so the government had to override the planning legislation and councils. What they should have done is re-write the planning legislation and re-jig the whole process to reduce the scope of powers it affords to councils and nimbys, which are simply over the top. It should also have exclusions for the government where matters of national importance are concerned, such as building hospitals and other vital infrastructure.

The Norwegian company Equinor - experts in offshore wind farms - only recently pulled out of a major project in conjunction with the ESB:

"But Equinor has pulled out of the project, and out of Ireland. According to the Irish Examiner, Equinor has abandoned wind plans in Ireland due to “dissatisfaction with the regulatory and planning regime.”  https://electrek.co/2021/11/05/equinor-pulls-out-of-ireland-and-a-2-3b-floating-offshore-wind-farm/

A system that lets some lone chancer down in Wexford, who has a large parcel of land, object to a corporation like Apple building a data centre near Athenry, in the hope of getting the project cancelled and then selling them his land to them at an inflated valuation, is just so risible, where does one start?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792363#Comment_118792363

AFAIK they have completely abandoned any plans to build in Ireland and are just going to build another in Denmark, as they aren't idiots.

Kingkong

These type of deals are very rare and getting one leads to others. This is a massive blow to the digital economy and more importantly loss of skilled manufacturing jobs for those who don't want office work. We need a independent planning office for national projects over a certain size. No point pretending we are good in this area. Not the first one we lost over planning issues.

donegal_man

"Don't forget that many of the populace in Europe already confuse Ireland and the UK (common language and histories, eh!) and foresee an Eirexit as an eventuality ('the islands may as well...')."

I'd really like to see some context for that. I spend a good 50% of my working day talking to colleagues on the continent and I've yet to hear it.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792608#Comment_118792608

Probably because they are your colleagues and they know you.

As 1000 randomers on streets anywhere between Belgium and Bulgaria and see do they know.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792608#Comment_118792608

I must agree. While I am based in Dublin I work for a European corporation and have daily contact with a wide range of people throughout Western Europe. Even in the early days of Brexit there was no conversation (Even casual, enquiring) about Ireland leaving the EU. As a matter of fact, the only time I heard the term "eirexit - Shudder, what a terrible name) was here on Boards when farage was trying to kick up some interest in the concept.

Of course there are many in Europe who are unsure of Ireland's situation regarding the UK. There are people in the UK who are confused about the matter. Just as there are people in Ireland confused about relationships between countries/regions in continental Europe. But I seriously doubt that anyone in continental Europe following Brexit to any degree would not be aware of the situation between Ireland and UK. Anyone with a passing interest knows that one of the main hurdles is goods North/South.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792140#Comment_118792140

How fking well do you think these jobs are gonna pay. You honestly think it's enough for land and a house in an area that's already a commuter hub and land would skyrocket if the facility gets greenlit. That's before you factor in that every builder in the country already seems to be flat out and unavailable.

Maybe after years of saving working that job but people won't have the money straight off.

We lost out to Germany big massive Germany in a biding war. There is no big shock, conspiracy or blame to throw round. It just happens.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792642#Comment_118792642

If they already confuse Ireland and the UK then how can they see Irexit as an eventuality ?

That's a completely nonsense statement. They think we are the UK but also think we will leave the EU someday.

brokenangel

This happens all the time, most MNC will have internal bidding wars when countries try to win specific contracts etc.

The heading is a load of rubbish, the "State" didn't lose these jobs.

Even if planning was fully granted you have countries all over the World giving all sort of incentives to these companies to get them to move the jobs to their country. No matter what Ireland does we only have a 5m population and are an island on the edge of Europe.

If MNC's had their way the whole of Ireland would be one huge DC because we are one of the best countries to run DC's.

Also I work daily with people all over Europe, I have never met a single person who confuses Ireland with UK. Yes I have heard Americans confuse Ireland with UK, saying we use the pound etc. But then again I have heard Americans getting confused with the UK and why they dont use the Euro

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793041#Comment_118793041

The Europeans who are most confused about the independent status of Ireland seem to be English people.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793063#Comment_118793063

Well, the English have been signing since 1996 "It's coming home"....that kind of says it all really

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792140#Comment_118792140

We don't have 10k IT professionals sitting around waiting to take up those jobs. In fact no one has, there is a world wide shortage. So trading 10k jobs we can't staff in favour of a better environmental police we actually need is a no brainer.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793071#Comment_118793071

I have no clue what the relevance of that soccer song is here tbh.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793094#Comment_118793094

Bulk of those jobs would not be IT, but infact building trades and electricians. Again in short supply, but can be trained in large numbers.

Trading 10k jobs for the status quo is not a win, its stagnating. The population of this country is growing - we need employment opportunities to grow to match

Pussyhands

The planning had absolutely nothing to do with this decision.

It would have been irresponsible for Intel to build another huge factory in Ireland. Having all of their EU manufacturing in one country is far too risky. if there were any supply chain issues, security issues, economic issues just related to Ireland it would be hugely damaging.

It would also get to the stage where Intel are too big for Ireland from an Irish risk perspective. If at any stage in the future Intel announced a 10% cut in workforce, we'd be looking at 2.5k+ job losses overnight.

The irish government also would not give them the billions in subsidies they needed.

All in all, I'm happy they didn't decide to build another factory here. Another 10k jobs? Sure we have tens of thousands of jobs already unable to be filled! So what would we do? Bring in foreigners and jack up house prices again? This isn't 2009, I don't get the insatiable demand for more jobs.

And lastly, all the announcements yesterday saying Ireland loses out on new factory but wins 12bn in investment....that's old news. That's for their current build ongoing. And a big chunk of that money will be leaving the country anyways as the machines cost mega money. One machine alone could cost over $100m

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_fabrication_plant#:~:text=All%20these%20devices%20are%20extremely,each%20(e.g.%20EUV%20scanners).

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793128#Comment_118793128

Well if trades people are already in short supply then why are we not already training them in large numbers. Why are we waiting for Intel?

Think about it.

donegal_man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792642#Comment_118792642

Utter nonsense. Not one person I've met in Berlin, Warsaw or Rome has thought we're either part of the UK (in which case we'd have left already) or on the verge of leaving. People do sometimes ask if I'm English when they hear my accent but that's as far as it goes.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793128#Comment_118793128

How can builders and electricians be simultaneously in short supply and in desperate need of work?

tails_naf

You think Germany is going to have that defeatist attirude? We've thousands of skilled engineers (it's not all IT) here from all over the world. High quality jobs mens more taxpayers on the high end, which we do need.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793489#Comment_118793489

It's not a defeatist attitude it's a realistic assessment of why we lost a bid.

I'm sure if Germany lost the bid they would have a similar conversation about why.

Kermit.de.frog

I'm wondering why they pitched Oranmore in the first place.

Dublin would be the obvious and only choice for a plant of such scale with the infrastructure required.

Think this was ballsed tbh.

My biggest concern about this is that Intel may start the wind down process in Ireland in the next few years with the new key sites on the continent.

Planning in Ireland is a joke. Every Tom, Dick and Harry no matter where they are or for any reason can hold anything up for years through the courts.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793806#Comment_118793806

The where probably didn't matter as long as transport links were good. Not much difference between the edge of Dublin and the Dublin side of Galway to Intel I'de say.

The Germans probably offered them some better benefits or something. Logistically if I was building my mega factory I'de pick the centre of Europe over an Island too. They probably only said we were in contention to keep us happy.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792107#Comment_118792107

What about da homeless….

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793489#Comment_118793489

Every country on this earth will have trouble to provide the employees and the housing. So obviously they will need to bring them in from all over the world and accept the increased pressure on housing that they bring because this is how you develop a country. This is how it works, it's either plentiful and affordable housing or high standard of living. Not both.