Major issue with SIMI dealer and warranty

CiDeRmAn

Hi,

Looking for some advice, I picked up a Jaguar XF, 2016, just over a week ago, 23k.

Upon bringing it home I noticed the battery light was on, while my wife noticed a rattle from the exhaust.

I hoped the battery was because it had run down on the forecourt, but the warning remained despite a few good runs on the motorway.

Also, the rattle was noticeable, so I contacted the dealer by email, within a week of purchase, and they agreed to look at it.

I thought it would be the battery repair and a replacement exhaust mount.

While they replaced the battery, they now tell me that the service department have told them that someone tried to steal the catalytic convertor and damaged the ceramic inside.

He even suggested that it was damaged after I brought it to a third party for repair, or similar.

He has offered to do a minor repair, that should get rid of the rattle, but he won't cover the replacement of the catalytic convertor, saying I had the car a week and the damage could of occurred then.

So, now I have a loaner car from them, my car sits there in their dealership, I am going to have to make a decision about do I speak to a solicitor, which I probably will.

He is insisting that, as the car was NCTd the morning I collected it, that it would not have passed the test with a rattle in the exhaust, so it must have been fine when I drove it home, so the damage must have occurred since I brought it home.

Again, the rattle was present on the day I bought it, and the car has never been on the street, only in the secure carpark at work or parked, overnight, outside my house which is out in rural Dublin.

Any advice on this one?

Should I just give the car back, if it is an option?

CiDeRmAn

Oh, and to be clear, they are suggesting this happened after I bought it and it has nothing to do with them and was a result of an attempted theft.

They maintain that it is not a warranty issue, and it is entirely mine to deal with.

Oddly enough, they informed me that the car I traded in was sold already, though still on the premises, however, they also told me it has an oil leak.

I wonder if they have disclosed that to the new owner, or are they going act like there is nothing wrong until it is off the forecourt and no longer their problem?

I'd be bringing the car back to them , no phone calls or emails and have them fix the issue or you'll be returning the car.

User1998

Realistically an exhaust rattle normally wouldn’t be covered under warranty. It’s usually just engine and gearbox. Does your warranty specifically say that it covers the exhaust etc?

Although the rattle probably was there when you bought it, it can’t really be proven. But I think a car with a rattly exhaust could pass an NCT

Maybe see what the repair they do is like before going any further? It could very well cure the problem.

bazz26

I find it very odd that a dealer who is blaming the exhaust rattle on an attempted theft of the catalytic convertor, would offer to make any sort of repair to it at all. Surely once they touch it then it just means more hassle for them. Also do many catalytic convertors get stolen from diesel cars, I know they have valuable elements in certain petrol hybrid cars but a standard diesel car? The entire story they are giving seems very fishy to me.

Another thing, what's to say that even if they cure the exhaust rattle with a quick fix, what sort of damage is done to the catalytic convertor itself and would it pass the next NCT?

CiDeRmAn

Yep Bazz26, that's exactly what my brother said.

That the repair would almost certainly mean I'll have to buy a cat next NCT, in two years.

But I can't prove the damage predated the purchase, if I could they'd be on the hook for it.

Not only that, but by insisting it's as a result of criminal damage it means that the warranty isn't going to cover it anyway, I'll have to talk to the insurance instead.

Your insurance is going to be dearer and lose your no claims over this I would get a mechanic to diagnose the issue first and see if they'll cover the cost if it's a small repair.

It could be something relatively minor to fix if it passed the NCT.

CiDeRmAn

Well, my immediate options are to leave it with them and accept an attempt to repair.

Or, to take it home and ask a mechanic to diagnose.

I wonder if the reason for the damage is why it was sold on in the first place, and I have bought bigger trouble than expected.

bazz26

If it were me I'd probably take it to an independent 3rd party like an exhaust centre to have the rattle looked at. I wouldn't mention anything about what the dealer said may have happened or that you just bought it until after they examine it as saying that will just probably make them want to not be involved in your dispute. I'd just mention the exhaust rattle, let them diagnose the problem from there and give an estimate of how much it will cost to put right. Lets see if they come to the same conclusion that the dealer came to about the catalytic convertor.

I'm no expert but in my mind if someone tried to cut the catalytic convertor off recently then the frayed metal should look fresh and have little to no corrosion on it at this stage but if it were done some time ago then it should be rusty at this point from being exposed to the elements.

CiDeRmAn

I'll get the car back tomorrow morning and go and get it checked out, as you suggest.

I'll let you know how it went.

Needless to say, while it's not the first time I've had a nasty surprise in a car purchase, it's probably the one I was expecting the least, given it was a SIMI dealer and a years warranty.

As an aside, he has already sold the car I traded in, the 2012 BMW 520d MSport for 14000, which is what I paid for it, three years ago

That's 2nd hand car inflation for you

bazz26

Being a SIMI dealer means feck all to a customer. The SIMI are a lobby group for dealers made up of dealer members.

New Home

I remember ringing the Citizens' Information line about my car (a rake of issues, pretty much from the day I got it; I brought it back to the dealer in Connacht, where I bought it; they pretended to fix it but returned it to me the day of a big storm (knowing that I'd be in a hurry to get back into the house) still malfunctioning AND with a dented (and cracked) bonnet. This was in 2019. Apparently there's a EU law that says that you can return the car within 10 years of the day you bought it and get your money back. Obviously there are T&Cs and regulations, but it's worth investigating. I think the first step is to show you've complained to both the dealer and SIMI. Good luck, op - some car salesmen are the pits and deserve all that's coming to them.

CiDeRmAn

Have the car home, sounds like a piece of gravel rattling around in there, only audible at idle.

I've gotten a mechanic friend to have a look in a day or so, see where to go from there.

Thanks for the advice

It is a very nice car, despite this nonsense!

zg3409

It's buyer beware I am afraid. Sometimes it easier to suck it up and avoid that dealer next time, Often dealers don't stand up to warranty claims with excuses like it passed NCT, happened after sale, buyers fault etc.

Even main dealers can be bad too.

CiDeRmAn

I personally believe they knew the issue was there and did nothing.

The plan was always to blame criminal damage after the purchase so that they would be indemnified from having to do something about it.

And, with no way to prove otherwise, I'm stuck with the cost of replacement, if that's what's required.

I will be making a formal complaint, if that is what happens, and see where it goes from there.

colm_mcm

Do a voluntary early NCT and see if it passes.

tvjunki

Just be prepared to go to the manufacturer. Many dealers are franchises and do not want to loose their contract.

If this is not allowed admin please delete link. There is a jaguar forum. Maybe join and see what is said. This person had an issue and bought and extended warranty. Might be something to look at.

https://www.jaguarforum.com/threads/catalytic-converter-under-warranty.125702/

Many years ago I had a Ford mondeo that was bought from a dealer (1year old) and there was an issue with the cv joint. Seemly the manufacturer was replacing the cv joint as they knew there was an issue with them at the time. It was under warranty. I got it replaced by a Ford dealer in Dublin. Less than a month later the new cv joint started the same issue. I went back to the dealer to repair. Replaced again. Same issue a month later and the dealer said I had to pay. I contacted Ford Dagenham explained what had happened and still have an issue. Cv joint replaced free of charge and never had an issue afterwards.

I know it is not the same situation as yourself but definitely worth challenging the dealer.

bazz26

I cannot see Jaguar being remotely interested in this case. The car is 5 or 6 years old afaik and was sold by an independent used car dealer. Unless the issue is specifically diagnosed as a design fault then chasing Jaguar is just going down a rabbit hole. The OP's grievance is with the dealer they bought it from.

CiDeRmAn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118695650#Comment_118695650

It passed the less than two weeks ago, on the day that I collected the car.

I didn't hear the problem because I was in the car, my wife noticed as soon as I was home.

CiDeRmAn

I do have to contact Jaguar about updating the software with the smart phone package as well as the local flavour of OS, so the main Speedo reads in kmh.

The CD player won't load a disc either, so that's a pain

colm_mcm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696762#Comment_118696762

They’re saying it wouldn’t pass an NCT the way it is. Prove them wrong, you can do a voluntary test early.

If it passes as-is go back to them and tell them you believe the fault was there long before you bought it.

CiDeRmAn

Sounds like a good idea, I'll see how the mechanic goes on Tuesday and look at booking her in for a retest

CiDeRmAn

Mechanic had a look at the car, and I had a look too.

Doesn't look like the damage is as a result of someone trying to remove the cat, instead it looks like someone was trying to roughly remove the shielding from one of the pipes leading to it.

The rattle from within is definitely a piece of the ceramic matrix after breaking and it is now rattling around in there.

How much or little I don't know.

Looking it up, it is a problem and the solution is replacement or shaking out the damaged piece of ceramic (assuming it is only a small piece and the whole thing isn't shattered).

Either way, it is the dealers responsibility to repair/replace, so an email is going there way later on and a potential solicitors letter if they still refuse.

Thanks for all the advice here folks.

User1998

It would be best to follow up with a phone call as well as an email. Its very easy to just ignore an email. And how much would a solicitor charge you for this? And how much would the mechanic charge to get the damaged piece out?

CiDeRmAn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730319#Comment_118730319

The last phonecall got heated, with no willingness aside from cutting it off and shaking it out.

If they agree to try to remove the piece, it leaves me liable for the full cost of repair, should there be more damage inside, there is no way of knowing until it is opened up.

A solicitor?

Probably €300, and the replacement of the catalytic converter would run into the thousands, so well worth it if it gets the work done.

This is an issue with the car that was present on the day of purchase.

This is an issue that I can expect the dealer to repair.

The dealers responsibility doesn't extend only to some arbitrary budget limit, if the car has an issue that they didn't disclose or notice, the buyer has the right to expect the issue to be resolved, and this is law.

The dealer, in this case, is attempting to use an excuse of criminal damage to avoid a costly repair, trying to shove that expense on the buyer.

And they were pretty clear and unpleasant about that, accusing me of possibly causing the damage when trying to affect a repair myself, which was insulting, to say the least.

So, no, to hell with that.

We can do this as the law demands or they can find themselves reported and in the small-claims court, and can pay up there instead.

Inviere

You're well over the limit for the SCC, they cover up to 2k only unfortunately - https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

I'd go the solicitor route, and your statutory rights/sale of goods/services act (ie goods must be fit for use, and of merchantable quality....a car dealer is bound by these.) An email and phonecall advising them of your plans first perhaps, but I'd be wasting no more time on this one. If your previous car has indeed been sold, I don't know fully how that might complicate things, but perhaps the market value of it might be owed to you? Not sure on that one, get some advice there.

CiDeRmAn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739703#Comment_118739703

I imagine they would try to deduct the price of the repair from the money returned!

But, realistically, I hope this ends with them covering the repair, rather than a trip to court.

The email from me is sent, with the promise of a solicitors letter if it is unsuccessful.

They already know what I expect from a previous phonecall, which also informed them I would be getting it assessed by a mechanic, which I did.