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ID4 Vehicle to home (v2h) coming 2023

  • 18-02-2022 3:59pm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,658 ✭✭✭ zg3409

    Only the 77kWh model will get it via over the air update.

    Later in the AMA session, Diess said bidirectional charging would come to all 2023 VW ID.4 vehicles built with the 77 kWh battery, with earlier models to get it over-the-air.

    Its not clear if this is automated or manual process, if it needs an adapter plugged in like Hyundai models


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ ted1

    This has been talked about in more detail previously, you will need a home DC charger. Currently they are 4K, but VW hope to get this down

  • Moderators Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight

    Don't think it's even worth breaking out the spreadsheet at that cost.

    Wonder if an adaptor could be used in stead. 2 couple of kW from the car would be a great benefit when needed. During a storm you'd have enough to get a microwave going, fridge running, keep your broadband and telly going. Bit more than 2kW and it'd be fierce handy for running washes etc during the day rate hours. I'd pay something for that.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    It depends a lot on the cost of the wallbox including installation, I imagine you'll need some kind of grid protection for a blackout so you don't accidentally electrocute some poor ESB engineer

    If the wallbox cost say €2k all told, then how much night rate savings does it take to pay back

    Right now I'd say my annual bill would be around €2k, that's for the house, heat pump and both EVs (12,000kWh total consumption)

    Max daily consumption I think is around 30kWh, so I could drain the battery from 80% down to 40% and still have plenty of range for anything that comes up

    I reckon if that was all at the night rate of 6.95c/kWh then that'll take it down to about €1k per year

    2 years payback on the wallbox would be pretty good, better payback than solar PV. Even if it costs twice as much that's still a decent payback period

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭ poker--addict

    A dummies Q,

    why is the v2h breakthrough so difficult and expensive ? Why is it so different from sticking 10kw batteries on our solar systems?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    In a word, inverters

    Batteries are DC, your house needs AC, so you need an inverter to convert one to the other

    You've already got one attached to your PV system, so as you know they cost several thousand for a decent power supply

    So the next question is where to put the inverter, in the car or external

    VW have taken the external approach, so you'll need to take DC electricity from the car to an inverter in the wallbox

    The advantages are that you make the car simpler and cheaper, and because space and weight aren't as big a concern you can have a bigger inverter and pull a lot of power from the car. VW V2G wallbox will apparently be capable of supplying 22kW to the house, although I suspect that'll be only on 3 phase. This opens up the possibility of feeding back power to the grid and being paid to have your car plugged in at certain times for grid balancing

    The disadvantage is that the wallbox will likely cost several thousand, so it's a lot of investment to basically just have a bigger PV battery for your house

    The other approach is to have the inverter in the car, like what Kia & Hyundai are doing. The advantages there are that your car is essentially a portable power station and can provide power anywhere, so no expensive wallbox or external inverter needed

    The disadvantage is that you're adding complexity, weight and cost to the car, although you can offset this somewhat by making it an optional extra

    The other tricky part for both options is local grid regulations. You've probably noticed that ESB are a bit uptight about how your PV array is properly isolated from the grid in the event of a grid failure.

    Same rules apply for V2G, and despite Brussels best efforts, almost every country in Europe has their own set of rules for this. Which means that a V2H system has to be adapted for every set of regulations, which is a bit of a nightmare scenario for any manufacturer

  • Registered Users Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ ted1

    Not really uptight. It’s safety issue. Nearly every system operator in the works have the same rules. It’s to protect the life of the staff working on the system.

    you can’t feed on to line when it it out. There could be a pair of hands on it, trying to fix the fault

  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭ podge1979

    I would suspect it'll be the same as Ioniq5 V2L. You can't have V2h as far as I understand without comparable bidirectional home charger. Ioniq 5 can also do that having a V2h charger. They are doing a pilot setup in Korea at the moment I think with an expansion of V2h which is called V2G (vehicle to grid) which is the future (but would question the impact on vechicle battery there with frequent charge and discharge cycles).

    Rumours that Tesla also have the car hardware for this and would require just a sw update. But Tesla don't seem to say much about this maybe, trying to sell more batteries. Two parts of their business model competing with each other

  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭ Fantana2

    Is there an argument to go down this route instead of batteries when you are installing solar? Just go for a big solar array and then a DC bidirectional inverter instead of a hybrid.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    True, my only issue is that the standards seem different in many EU countries

    Ireland in particular chose to have a different standard for mains disconnection, which means that many models of inverter aren't compatible with our standards

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    There could be, if your car sits in the driveway most of the time then you can just have it plugged into a v2g wallbox instead of needing a house battery

    Of course you could argue that you didn't need to spend the money on a long range EV if it just sits there all the time 😉

    What will be interesting will be if VW provide the ability on the wallbox to connect solar panels. If they have like a 48V input then you could just connect your panels directly to the wallbox, which then functions as your hybrid inverter

    Otherwise you'll still need to pay out several thousand for one, which kind of erases most of the cost benefits of having v2g

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭ embraer170

    What about the impact on the life expectancy of the car battery, which is the most expensive part of any electric vehicle. It can't do it a whole lot of good to add charging cycles.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,696 ✭✭✭✭ KCross

    V2G wont have your car cycling its battery alot. V2G will be where you allow the provider to take a few kWh's from your battery.... its not like the car is at 100% and they take 50% of it.... we are talking modest amounts of discharge per car. When you multiply it up by thousands of cars it adds up to alot for the grid.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    It's worth keeping in mind that the rate of degradation depends on the depth and rate of discharge

    For example, the ID.4 has a 150kW motor, so can discharge 150kW from the battery at any one time without damage. Most Irish houses have a 16kW grid connection so even powering the house entirely from the car you won't be anywhere near what the car is capable of providing

    Then there's depth of discharge. I think my house would use a maximum of 30kWh per day in the depths of winter, typically less. So again if I was powering the house entirely from the car I'd be able to go 2.5 days before the battery is discharged

    In a more normal mode of operation, I'd be charging the battery overnight, using the car in the morning and afternoon, plugging into during the day to use as much solar PV as possible and then discharging in the evening when the sun is gone

    So I'd likely be taking only 10kWh out of the battery, similar to a days commute

    So there probably would be a very slight impact to the battery's lifetime, bit driving the car around will remain the biggest source of degradation

  • Moderators Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight

    You'll have to buy cars capable of v2h from then on in that case. And some of the car options out there can support v2h already (right?) Without the need for an expensive external inverter.

    It did cross my mind though. Likely €5-7k for the charger inverter unit, but then no few €k on a small 5kWh battery.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    There's value in both approaches, ideally you'd have the option of a small inverter onboard like an Ioniq 5, and the DC wallbox if you need more power

    What I'm hoping is that the wallbox combines the functions of a solar inverter and the v2h system

    If it had a 48V input/output then it could function as a regular hybrid inverter, and you could just plug the solar panels in via an mppt. You could even have a little battery sitting on the 48V rail, so you still have a buffer if you're away from the house

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭ slave1

    Tesla will never introduce this, all pre 2017 Tesla came with free SuC for life so if they did introduce you'd have folk filling their car to charge their house at Tesla's expense

    Tesla referral link - get free credits for you and I...

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin

    I think Elon wasn't to enthusiastic about the idea as well, keeps saying it causes too much degradation

    I think he probably doesn't want to create any competition for Tesla Powerwalls, ideally he wants potential customers to buy both a car and a PV system with Powerwall

    Also the free leccy is definitely a reason, although realistically how much could they lose on this considering there's a limited number of those older Teslas around

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭ slave1

    Just under 200,000 delivers with free SuC and they had an event after withdrawing the free SuC where they offered it again for a limited time period

    Tesla referral link - get free credits for you and I...