Sacked doctor sues former employer for refusing to call trans-woman "she"

Shield

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10507853/Christian-doctor-David-Mackereth-sacked-trans-views-fight-High-Court.html

This will be another interesting case to watch, as the outcome will test the limits of the defence of "religious belief" against conduct that it is claimed violates said beliefs.

In the abstract, it's a bit like the Asher's 'gay cake' case in that person X refused to do Y citing religious beliefs, even though there was a cost to the dignity/humanity of person Z. The Kim Davis case in America is also loosely the same. Essentially: "I believe that you should not live this way; this makes my belief the State's belief".

I am wondering where you see this going? Kim was ultimately jailed for refusing to issue marriage licences as she claimed it violated her Christianity. Could we end up seeing doctors disciplined/fined/jailed for refusing to use the pronouns of trans people? It might sound like a silly question now, but there has been an "explosion of patients identifying as transgender" so laws on this are going to be created sooner or later, inevitably resulting in people refusing to obey said laws on the grounds of "sincerely-held religious belief".

[Deleted User]

Hiding behind his faith. He should just said their is no compulsion to use your preferred pronounss

Danzy

Sad that he has to say it is religious rather than scientific rationalism.

Then again Science is currently being fought by a sizeable clique of Progressives in a way religion is no longer having.

Green Finers

Trans women ARE real women and are just as womanly as someone who was born a woman.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627903#Comment_118627903

They are biological males.

Green Finers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627909#Comment_118627909

They’re still women.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627920#Comment_118627920

In what way?

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627903#Comment_118627903

Why did you call them Trans-women just now then?

Green Finers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627928#Comment_118627928

Do you need a science lesson?

One eyed Jack

I see a change of career in the doctor’s future to become a talking head for the crowd on social media who portray themselves as liberals and conservatives, when in reality all they are is bitter, spiteful sad cases.

On the subject of the outcome of any legal action regarding his dismissal, it doesn’t appear to have had anything to do with his own personal religious beliefs; it appears to have had everything to do with the fact he’s just a cnut, which is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Acts.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627928#Comment_118627928

In the way that I am a self-proclaimed sex expert, and I say that trans-women are not women.

What are my credentials you ask? Because I say I am. Same level of proof that trans-women give to say they are women: "because I say I am".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627952#Comment_118627952

Yes please. Show me the science in implying that someone born with a penis is every bit as womanly as a person born with a vagina.

Men and women (also known as males and females) are very different biologically.

What science shows me that someone can become the opposite sex?

I do know that some people genuinely feel they are the opposite sex, but what reason, outside of politeness, should I be compelled to believe them?

Where do you draw the line? Would you believe that someone can change their age? If not, why not?

Peregrinus

It's a Daily Mail report but for the purposes of discussion let's take it seriously and treat it as accurate.

It's not a question of whether we could see doctors disciplined, because this is a case in which a doctor already has been disciplined — his appointment as a DWP assessor has been terminated because of his refusal to follow his employer's policy on the treatment of trans people.

Dr Mackereth's employer was a public body, but I don't think that matters here; a private sector business might obviously adopt a policy of accepting and respecting their customer's gender identification, and might require their staff to implement that policy.

Reading the Daily Mail article two things stand out.

First, the journalist was briefed by Dr Mackereth and/or his advisers. It give a fairly uncritical presentation of the case as they would like it to be seen. There may be other ways to see the case, and other relevant facts or points that Dr Mackereth does not find it in his interests to draw to your attention. If you're interested, you'll have to research those yourself.

Secondly, Mackereth's contract was terminated in 2018 and his employment tribunal case was heard (and went against him) in 2019. In a sense this is old news. The reason it has come up again is because of the somewhat similar Forstater case. Forstater, like Mackereth, lost in the employment tribunal but, unlike Mackereth, appealed to the Employment Appeal Tribunal, where she won in June 2021. Mackereth believes that his case is very similar to hers and therefore he now wants to appeal.

Three issues arise in the appeal:

1. Is Mackereth out of time? You can't normally wait three years before appealing a tribunal judgment. He may need special leave from the court in order to proceed.
2. Are the facts in Mackereth's case really that similar to Forstater? The Daily Mail article doesn't give a lot of detail on that.
3. The outcome in Forstater's case was that her beliefs about the immutability of sex were protected even if they offended people, and they "must be tolerated in a pluralist society". But this did not mean that she could "indiscriminately and gratuitously refer to trans persons in terms other than they would wish". So the order she got was not an order that she be reinstated in her job or compensated for wrongful dismissal; it was an order that the case go back the employment tribunal so that the tribunal could consider whether she had been fired because of her belief (firing not permitted) or because on account of her belief she had acted towards her clients in ways that were offensive to them (firing permitted). SFAIK the tribunal has not yet made a finding about this in Forstater's case. Presumably the same distinction will need to be made in Mackereth's case.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627903#Comment_118627903

At the risk of this thread going down the usual route - nobody was ever born a woman, they’d have ruptured the uterus developing at that rate before their mother had even given birth! 😳

[Deleted User]

What religion dictates whether you address someone as he or she?

Danzy

I hope that the Doctor would treat any woman with Prostate Cancer or erectile dysfunction without judgement or letting personal belief cloud scientific knowledge.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627903#Comment_118627903

Externally.

But I've yet to meet one who has experienced menstrual cramps.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628052#Comment_118628052

The doctor is claiming it’s his Christian belief in Genesis 1:27 and extrapolating from there it would seem.

Dakota Dan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627920#Comment_118627920

If you put a wool coat on a cow would that make her a sheep? See how silly your logic is?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628158#Comment_118628158

Genesis? Not actually meant to be taken literally, as any real Christian would know.

I would have more respect for him if he was honest instead of trying to hide behind religion

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627893#Comment_118627893

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627897#Comment_118627897

I disagree. Religion gives people strong motivation to do things that are otherwise disadvantageous. Why wouldn't he just keep his head down and say nothing unless he felt strongly about it?

Hello 2D Person Below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627971#Comment_118627971

Wrong. I love the authority and cocksuredness with which you typed the above, only to be absolutely and fundamentally wrong.

Studies show that the brain structure of transgender people closer resemble the brains of their preferred gender.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628200#Comment_118628200

You obviously know what a real Christian looks like as opposed to a fake one. 🤣

As daft a statement as me saying I'm a brick

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628419#Comment_118628419

Not really daft at all. Genesis is not meant to be taken literally. Anyone who has had religious education would know that. This man either, hasn't had any religious education, or is hiding behind some rubbish excuse!

And, you can say you're a brick if you like #shrugs #

SouthWesterly

@bubblypop

Funny that.

I've qualifications in theology. I've no problem believing Genesis.

What theological qualifications do you have?

cannonballTaffyOjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628382#Comment_118628382

Yes and studies also show that their genitals are far closer to their biological sex then their preferred gender.

facts are facts

growleaves

So?

Even a non-literal interpretation of Genesis suggests that make and female are two distinct essences, and doesn't seem to leave any room for gender fluidity or inter-changability of any kind.

The idea that human beings have no intrinsic essence and are infinitely malleable arises from a combination of political liberalism and nihilist atheism i.e. "You can be anything you want and nothing matters anyway"

65535

The answer is quite simple really - just ask the person concerned what their name is and from that point onwards just call them by that name - no need to get into the he/she/them etc.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628463#Comment_118628463

You believe that all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve and that god created Adam and from Adam god used a rib to create Eve?

Green Finers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628138#Comment_118628138

So infertile women or women who’ve lost their wombs / ovaries? Are they not real women?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628463#Comment_118628463

You believe the world was created in 7 days?

Do I need theological qualifications? The nuns and priest educated us in religion as children and they explained to us how they are merely stories, fiction, made to tell a story.