Civil Service Administrative Officer to Executive Officer

Loz Ella

Hello, I have heard of AOs who have applied for internal and interD EO competitions so that if successful they would be eligible for HEO competitions. I was wondering whether this is actually possible and what this would mean regarding salary. Are AOs eligible for EO competitions (I ask as I know that AOs can't go for HEO competitions due to the "equivalence" of the grades)? Would the person retain the equivalent of their AO salary (or next nearest point) on the EO scale if successfully placed following the EO competition? Would they need to remain as an EO until after probation to be eligible for HEO competitions? Any advice that can be given would be appreciated.

Kirbi

I'm not sure about the salary calculations, but a serving AO is eligible for any Open comps once they meet the requirements (and I can't see how they wouldn't if they were appointed as an AO already).

In order to be eligible for a HEO comp, I think you just need to have 2 years in the Civil Service, rather than 2 at EO. There are certainly people that were promoted to HEO while in the middle of their EO probation, although generally they were at CO first, rather than AO.

Loz Ella

Thanks for replying. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that anyone applying through an open competition could only be appointed on the first point of the EO standard pay scale, do you know if this is true? (That's why I said internal or interD comps in my original post)

Kirbi

That's not completely true for serving civil servants - the Pay on Promotion circular (08/2019, I think) allows for a start above the first point for serving officers, regardless of whether the competition is confined (i.e. Internal or Inter/D).

I'm not sure a move from AO to EO would come under those rules, but it is standard for continuous service to be taken into account.

Ollie321

I don't think an AO would be applicable to an InterD/Internal EO competition, however they could apply for an Open EO and move up to HEO on promotion from there

Loz Ella

Thanks for the replies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604779#Comment_118604779

Ollie, for my own understanding, why would you not think an AO would be eligible for an InterD/Internal EO competition?

Ollie321

I may be wrong and completly open to correction but I thought if you were currently at a grade with a higher final salary than another grade you wouldn't be eligible for that competition via the interD/internal. This is the stipulation regarding AO unable to apply for HEO, they both end on the same point on the scale, again this is only my understanding

Conqueror

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607495#Comment_118607495

If I may, the reason is that an interdepartmental competition is for promotion to a grade (and internal competitions are the same), and AO is higher than EO.

The circulars relating to interdepartmental competitions from 2016 and 2018, for example, both say that "Candidates for promotion to Executive Officer must on or before the closing date: a) be serving in an established, unestablished or acting (see para 5.b) below) capacity in the Civil Service in a grade below that of Executive Officer".

Now, as noted above, an AO can apply for an open EO competition. Regarding pay, DPER guidance is that "Civil Servants recruited from external competitions under Public Appointments Service (PAS) are entitled to the more favourable of the following:

• The minimum point of the new scale.
• Pay equivalent to their existing pay including any accrued increment."

I would assume you then continue on the EO scale, i.e. if you were at point 3 of the AO scale (€37,125) and moved to EO, you start at point 5 (€38,315) and then, at your next increment date, move to EO point 6 (€40,044) rather than point 5 on the AO scale (€44,311). I say point 5 on the AO because every new entrant below AP skips points 4 and 8 on the pay scale.

I get that, really, your query is more because of an ultimate goal of becoming HEO. Again, you have to be at a grade below HEO to be eligible (as per the 2020 competition [Circular 19/2020]), so you need to be a CO or EO (or equivalent). But given that one would have to go through at least two competitions to get to HEO (because given the sheer numbers who apply, there's no guarantee you'd get a position first time around), why leave a grade with the equivalent final pay? If it's because of a desire to not work in Dublin, I can understand it, because there's more HEO posts than AO outside Dublin. If it's for further promotions, I know for recent AP competitions, there was some frustration among many AOs that they didn't have the management experience that HEOs might have, but I've also seen and heard HEOs who rue the fact that they don't have the policy experience AOs usually have.

Loz Ella

Thanks everyone, particularly for highlighting the relevant circulars.

xeresod

Why go backwards, why not apply for AP instead?