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Confronted men lamping from road over land which I have permission over

  • 07-02-2022 11:37am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113
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    Last night I stopped two men in a white van lamping from the road.

    I probably got their goat up when I asked them if they were after Deer!

    I was told that shooting deer at night is illegal and that I should mind my own F-ing business..

    I had to remain cautious and stated that "when lads are shooting over permissions that I have then it is my business to see whos around"

    I was told to FO and then I was questioned to see who owns what fields. I was able to state the owners names and prove that I was a genuine interested party.

    Again I was told to FO and mind my own business..


    Maybe I should have just called AGS and reported active lamping from the road but I wouldn't want to cause someone any unwarranted hassle.


    Maybe I could have handled the encounter better but I was suppressed by the level of aggression..


    If ever in the past if I was every stopped by someone I would have been polite and reassured them that I'm a genuine stakeholder..


    Any thoughts..



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,587 Ginger83
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    The attitude is most likely because they did not have permission to be there.

    Report it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,787 Feisar
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    I'd always shy away from a confrontation with someone in possession of a gun. Take the reg and report it. Anyway, what sort of two bit poacher gets caught out like that?

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 570 BSA International
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    Report it to landowner as they are only person who can technically make a complaint to Gardai.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 Mellor
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    I was told that shooting deer at night is illegal and that I should mind my own F-ing business..

    I’d have pointed out that so is shooting from the road. But probably best to thread lightly with how you phrase it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 kunekunesika
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    Take the reg, let the landowner know and let them decide.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,027 deeksofdoom
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    You're probably going to have to moderate your language the next time, asking them 'how's it going?' rather than accusing them of lamping deer straight out would be a better approach.

    I was approached by a couple of excited individuals a few years ago over a historical territorial dispute, I maintained that I was on our club ground they said I was on theirs. It turned ugly when they got abusive. One of them went to hit me another guy had already interfered with the tyres on my car (loosening the valve and replaced the caps), I didn't notice it until I got home..... I'm sorry I didn't call the guards that day.

    The next day it happens I'll record it on my phone and ring the cops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,072 clivej
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    AFAIK its is illegal to 'Shine a lamp' over property you don't have permission to hunt on. I'd have taken photo's and reported them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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    food for thought.. maybe it will upset their stride knowing that people are willing to stop and ask wtf..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 JP22
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    Illegal or not, as you have permission for the lands, I would report it to AGS as suspicious activity/possibly illegal activity and let AGS deal with it or not.

    I would definitely report it to the landowner as a matter of courtesy, after all you have his permission, you need to look after his interest as well.



  • Posts: 533 [Deleted User]
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    Is that not highly dangerous, in the sense that they could accidentally shoot someone or livestock by having poor visibility?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,787 Feisar
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    No different than shooting during the daytime, target ID and backstop.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 Mellor
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    Not sure what your getting at. But the issue here is to do with permission, shooting from the road etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 Furze99
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    Occasionally come across/ hear shooting, sometimes at dusk, in Coillte forests - public lands. Know where the entrances are, take photos of the car or cars and send into local Garda. No point in confronting. Worse though is to be on some track and hear a shot go off in the vicinity. Not much you can do bar let out a roar. I'm amazed there aren't more hunting accidents where innocent members of the public are injured, especially with the extra numbers getting out during and after Covid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 374 delboythedub
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    Get their Car reg. number and go down to the garda station . That will sort them out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,787 Feisar
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    People can have hunting leases over Coillte land and while it is owned by the State that does not mean anyone can just dander in for a walk. Pretty sure that's trespassimg.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 Gorgeousgeorge
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    take note of reg and leave. then report. never in this day and age engage with anyone who is armed. the shooting community as a whole is not what it once was unfortunately.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,708 otmmyboy2
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Slight addendum to that, you can walk on any Coillte land without a permit or permission needed.

    Obviously subject to other uses for that site(ie it is a MSI stage that day) but in general they are open and accessible for walking/hiking.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 Furze99
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    I think where that's the case, that signage is required at all entrances. That's fine - I'm talking lads just chancing their arms. And even in cases where they are chancing their arms, they should put up signage. Only a matter of time till someone else gets shot, wasn't there a chap accidentally killed up near Enniskerry a good few years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,134 Grizzly 45
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    You can put up signage, now with mandated strobe lights, and still, idiots will ignore them "I can do what I damn well want,and how dare those killers tell me what to do" attitude.

    What can you do with Darwinistic levels of stupidity?🙄

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 kunekunesika
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    I'll always report to landowner, just in case, ' oh, that's my son's friend, he must have told him to bang away....' etc etc

    Has happened me a few times, but mostly he takes the info directly to the gardai.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 Munsterlad102
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    I'm fairly sure trespassing is a civil offence, so you can kinda go where you want unless you're asked to leave. Obviously only referring to land, not houses. Open to correction, of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,787 Feisar
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    If forgiveness is easier got than permission, seek forgiveness!

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,708 otmmyboy2
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Correct, even the "no tresspassing/no entry" signs don't fulfil the requirement to inform someone that they must leave.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 Mellor
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    Somebody can enter you property without permission as long as they leave when asked?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 Munsterlad102
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    It always amuses me when I see a "trespassers will be prosecuted" sign. False advertising if anything ;)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,708 otmmyboy2
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    We were talking about land, so if that is what you are referring to as "property" above then yes.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 slipperyox
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    Simple.

    Continue to follow them, while on phone to garda with directions.

    That's threatening behaviour, suspected armed tresspass, and potential wildlife crime.

    While illegal to drive with phone, it may not be unlawful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 JP22
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    As mellor said, I think this is correct in law - what a stupid law.

    Then again, if someone puts their hand on your shoulder or spits on you, I believe its classified as "assault",

    Try getting the AGS to put that one through their books.............



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 Mellor
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    Land is property. Probably the most fundamental and common form of property.

    I'd be interest in seeing something that confirms or clarifies the above. For my own curiosity mainly, but also as it relates to hunting. If free access is land is allowed in the law, then wouldn't also access to a private building - which is obviously not the case. (dwellings are covered in the constitution).

    I'm not a solicitor, so by no means an expert on property law. I'd suspect something is being misunderstood or misapplied here. Accessing somebody property without permission or right is trespassing, regardless of whether you are told to leave or not. It's typically a civil matter as mentioned above.

    Trespass

    -A person is guilty of trespass to land where he ‘intentionally or negligently enters or remains

    on or brings something into contact with land which is in the possession of another.’

    -In order to bring an action for trespass, P must prove that the entrance was voluntary



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 gapjnr


    By any chance was it just a few lads shooting foxes and not after deer at all..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,787 Feisar
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    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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    well, it could have been, but I did get a single straight answer out of them.

    I asired them that I was a genuine stakeholder and I was still told to FO and mind my own business..

    The facts remain that they were lamping from the road, They were confrontational when initial confronted, I drove past them and stopped. I was going to text the land owner to say that there was a van down at his gram lamping the field at the milling parlour/calf houses with reg etc etc..

    The same farmer already had equipment stolen before and I told him I'd keep a eye out when I was around..

    Isnt that how it works..?? You watch out for broken gates, injured animals or animals being attacked or In difficulty birthing, fallen trees, leaking water pipes, damaged fences, lost wire stakes or bits of wire tangled in grass to be mowed or blokes searching around fields with lamps. Ye deal with light stuff and report on the larger problems the next morning or that night depending on the gravity of the situation..

    i saw a van searching with lamps. I saw now guns.. They were searching out the fields around the side of the yard equipment is kept..

    im not the only one with shooting permission there and I often see a car or van parked up and know that it lads shooting and I'm not bothered what they're doing or how they're doing it.. They're shooting down through the fields and I just wish I was there too..

    When I stopped them they never once confirmed what they were doing.. All they had to say is, we out looking for foxes and we have permission from mr x. to which I would say, best if luck! Don't shoot them all.. bye..

    in fairness, I thought I'd catch them out by asking them if they were out after deer.. if they knew nothing about deer shooting they might have said "yes, we are deer shooting'

    But that's not how it panned out.. I'm not going to pull back from standing up to people.. but if they were genuine shooters then they should have been happy to see that an other man was willing to verify that they were also genuine stakeholder..

    In the past I have collar a few lads on completely private permissions, and I just advised them this is my shooting permission and I gave soul permission so ye need to move on.. "fair is fair"

    i never once got a checky response on the few time I caught lads out of bounds.. I n ber once even thought of calling the cops.,

    I'd never want a gentleman to lose his guns as I know how much they mean to some men.

    ??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 Stone Deaf 4evr
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    Lamping for rabbits, or 'looking for a dog' is a fairly often used excuse for members of a cultural persuasion to explain why they're roaming where they shouldn't be late at night.

    if in doubt, call the gardai.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,134 Grizzly 45
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    Here yez go. The legal definition of tresspass here in the ROI

    https://legalguide.ie/trespass/

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,728 deerhunter1
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    No necessarily,if doing so from a main road you have the right to call guards



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 135 Rescueme0007
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    I believe that the fatality in Enniskerry was back in the 1970's?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,697 Cass
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    MODERATOR NOTE/WARNING

    Video removed.

    Identifiable people, names, car regs, etc. all are against forum rules, in the context of which the video was posted. The rules on Youtube are different and as it is not an Irish site they don't have to worry about legalities involved.

    Secondly the motivations, content and source of the video is "questionable" at best. If you wish to discuss this decision feel free to PM me.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,287 Chiparus
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    No worries, Just better not to confront these guys.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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    maybe.. but their attitude was crap.. and they were lamping from the road in a large van..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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  • If you pull up in front of someone at night on the road to stop them and follow that with accusing them of lamping deer I'd say a solid FO is to be expected regardless of whether whatever they were doing was right or wrong. You may have permission on the land and they may not but you're not a guard either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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    And what so? Just drive on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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    I’d rather get told to FO but still let these guys now that I and other are willing to confront them..







  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 Zxthinger
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    report what?

    Give your name and make a statement to AGS against someone so that they might lose there guns?

    It think its far safer to just confront them at them there an then if there locals..


    Maybe, I should have noted at the start, but the land owner has had trouble with an attempted theft of his cattle one night from the same stretch of road and he asked me to keep an eye out if I was around at night..

    Yes, I was annoyed by the level of aggression and yes I could have called the cops but I didnt..





  • If you're intent on stopping strangers at night on the roads work away 🤷‍♂️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 JP22
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    Been following thread for a while now. I can see your predicament as you having the shooting rights and that the landowner had trouble in the past and asked you to keep an eye out for him. I understand your desire to tackle them to protect your shooting rights/ground and to keep the landowner happy; it’s only natural but it’s unwise to do so (especially by yourself) in today’s society, TBTG the situation didn’t get out of hand. You cannot legislate for eejit’s.

    I would recommend you make a formal complaint to AGS and provide them with a description of the individuals concerned and the registration of their van.

    If you regularly patrol the roads in your shooting area, I recommend a dash cam in your vehicle; it’s hard to beat photographic/video footage of people and vehicles.

    Keep safe.



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